Ď42 round dial MG diagnostic help
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    Default Ď42 round dial MG diagnostic help

    I have a 10EE that I have not done much with inside base. I would like to find out if any or all of the electrical parts are useable or if I should just scrap it all and install a new complete drive. I would really like to keep it original if possible. So I believe I need to start at the generator and exciter yes? Pull the plate and see how itís wired? It has 240V and 480 V options. I donít know which. But if itís wired 480 I donít have service for that so I will wire it 240 if thatís the case. Next, I planned on hookup to a vfd and see if I get power. This machine has no apron on it or anything on the bed. The gearbox cover plate (the round dial) is removed and the associated parts are also removed. All the gears and such are still in there. The headstock has no oil in it and neither does the gearbox. All sight glasses have been removed. My plan for the headstock gearbox apron saddle taper attachment cross slide etc is to remove all of this and replace with donor 10EE. The bed is another thing. I want to see which one I have is the better to use. I will use the one with less wear. Back to the issue, what should I do next with MG?

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    Depends on what you want the lathe for. I use mine for work and don't have time to fool around with 80 yr old parts. A straight up repowering with a 7.5 AC motor with VFD just simplified the drive, improved reliability and makes for an easy to work with and QUIET machine. Think the practical side of machining here as in the name of this forum. If you like the originality of the design, have the time to fool around and are just doing occasional work with it, then just trudge along trying to make it work and then keep it working. That would be my advice. But I'm a cranky old SOB that doesn't have enough time left to play games with my machines. So take it with a grain of salt. Don

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fourierseries View Post
    I have a 10EE that I have not done much with inside base. I would like to find out if any or all of the electrical parts are useable or if I should just scrap it all and install a new complete drive. I would really like to keep it original if possible. So I believe I need to start at the generator and exciter yes? Pull the plate and see how it’s wired? It has 240V and 480 V options. I don’t know which. But if it’s wired 480 I don’t have service for that so I will wire it 240 if that’s the case. Next, I planned on hookup to a vfd and see if I get power. This machine has no apron on it or anything on the bed. The gearbox cover plate (the round dial) is removed and the associated parts are also removed. All the gears and such are still in there. The headstock has no oil in it and neither does the gearbox. All sight glasses have been removed. My plan for the headstock gearbox apron saddle taper attachment cross slide etc is to remove all of this and replace with donor 10EE. The bed is another thing. I want to see which one I have is the better to use. I will use the one with less wear. Back to the issue, what should I do next with MG?
    First.. get proper oil into both front and rear spindle bearing reservoirs. It might be "a while" before you even spin the spindle, but those bearings are seriously expensive and it would be a crying shame anything happened to them that has not already. You can see to sorting the sight glasses and a full flush and cleaning LATER. They only hold few OUNCES, each, so it isn't much coin wasted for cheap "Oh shit, I forgot!" insurance.

    Especially if the sight glasses are so dirty you cannot even tell whether there is adequate oil or not.

    Next check the final-drive motor. Not the MG.

    If the motor is bad, a VFD might make some sense and the MG becomes a spare for some other 10EE.

    If the motor is still good, then even IF the MG is NOT good, a Solid-State Dee Cee drive is less work - no mounts or adaptors to an AC motor to fab - and can essentially duplicate OEM performance right where it sits.

    AC needs a larger motor and VFD large enough to operate off single-phase.

    DC drives are made for single-phase ONLY or or 3-phase, ONLY.

    5 HP AC doesn't really cut it vs 3 HP - you need 7.5 HP AND must keep the gearbox for low-speed working.

    Look at the RPM where the HP is rated on the motor dataplate: 670 RM. The 3 HP is a torque animal. Even the 5 HP Dee Cee motors are barely any better for torque.

    NOW you look at the MG!

    Your VFD has a capabilty you may have forgotten. It can help TELL you if the motor is set up for 2XX or 4XX. RTFM. Start low and cautious. Ramp it up. No harm. The VFD will fault if yah get too far off what it expects.

    Either way, an MG is not ordinarily expensive to put back right. An MG is anvil-stout. It lasts for scores of years when it IS put back right.

    And it is SMOOTHER in operation than most other choices.

    Ask first. Assume not.

    There will be as much more information as you need.

    TOO much? Yes. BFD. We can't guess perfectly from a distance!

    No extra charge for it. Just close one eye!

    Come back later when yah discover yah NEED a snippet outta that "extra"!
    it will be in PM's databse. Google search finds whatever the internal search mght miss. Data mine for everything and anything you need.

    Most things have been covered MANY times, aready. If the answers already in the knowledge base are not ALL you need?

    You will be able to ask better questions and better understand the answers FASTER off the back of that "homework".

    The knowledge accumulates. And then.. YOU own a share in it yerself.. and are already helping the next seeker as you report your work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fourierseries View Post
    I have a 10EE that I have not done much with inside base. I would like to find out if any or all of the electrical parts are useable or if I should just scrap it all and install a new complete drive. I would really like to keep it original if possible. So I believe I need to start at the generator and exciter yes? Pull the plate and see how itís wired? It has 240V and 480 V options. I donít know which. But if itís wired 480 I donít have service for that so I will wire it 240 if thatís the case. Next, I planned on hookup to a vfd and see if I get power. ... Back to the issue, what should I do next with MG?
    Here's a link to a thread that will help you figure out what voltage is currently set up for and how to convert it to 240:
    10EE MG 440 to 220 Conversion Checklist

    Cal
    ---

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    If I can get the motor working I will change out the headstock. I have another machine that is in another thread. Increasing RPM on 10EE. If the electrical components of this machine can be saved I will transplant headstock, gearbox, saddle, apron, and possibly bed onto this machine. My other machine has nothing below bed. It sits on a fabricated stand. Beneath the frame is a 1 HP 220V 1 phase variable speed drive.

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    Okay I see what your saying with the main motor. Best way to see if itís still good?

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    If you get the motor/generator running first it will be easier to check out the spindle motor.

    Cal
    ---

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fourierseries View Post
    Okay I see what your saying with the main motor. Best way to see if it’s still good?
    2 each 12 Volt auto batteries in series, parallel connect to the Field and Armature. ONE will turn it over. When yah break the circuit, expect 4 or 5 times the applied Voltage as a spike. That can set you back on yer ass. Don't even THINK about getting close to the works when "normal" Voltages are present. Attach any test leads DEAD COLD, all power fully disconnected.

    Read from a safe distance after power-up.

    Not WISE to be messing around sticking probes ANYWHERE on a live Dinosaur Current system unless you seek to become a rectumfried fossil. It ain't no Pee Cee.
    LETHAL Voltages, course though its Copper veins - "stick and fry". No reversal to spasm yah off, no zero-cross for mercy.

    Otherwise, 24 V is safe enough to use a commutator stone. Around ten bucks online.

    Grab ye any handy Audio gear microphone. Make a recording. Run the .wav or "whatever" audio file through your gadget as has an audio spectrum analyzer software.

    Movie of the brushes sparking pattern, each of the four.

    Should grok where that takes yah, pattern analysis wise?

    See also spindle bearings when the time cometh.

    Learn to take notes as voice dictation. Like a coroner does. Frees-up the hands. Keeps s**t cleaner.

    Can't read yer hen-scratches a day later, let alone a year or three, but most folk can still understand they own voice.

    We got all sorts of already-paid-for technical s**t handy we don't often think to re-purpose for documentation and "test gear", yah?

    Spindle bearings: CLEAN around the OUTSIDE. before pulling the silly plugs that shed Zamak SMUT into the fill port already. Buy a NEW "turkey baster" giant eye-dropper at the poor-Lady store to dispense the DTE light. Zip lock bag it so it stays clean.


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    First, the generator has only 3 wires coming from it to the T1,T2,T3 terminals. There are no other wires either grouped together or bundled with 1,2,3. There are other wires coming through same hole. They go to GF1,2 and D which is coupled to a wire going to exciter. Could the actual wiring be done inside the generator and just the final leads be run to terminal box?

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    I will test the DC motor tomorrow. But not fully understanding your language. 2 each in series are you saying 4 batteries?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fourierseries View Post
    First, the generator has only 3 wires coming from it to the T1,T2,T3 terminals. There are no other wires either grouped together or bundled with 1,2,3. There are other wires coming through same hole. They go to GF1,2 and D which is coupled to a wire going to exciter. Could the actual wiring be done inside the generator and just the final leads be run to terminal box?
    FIRST "do no harm". Next? UNDO harm done by a prevous tinkerer.

    Even if . you see a possible "improvement"? A few bucks to be saved?

    Do not do that.

    The problem is..

    - so long as a(ny) 10EE is kept OEM factory as-built.. the manual you buy from Monarch by serial number is "right" for how your one should be.

    - MANY folks out here can sort of "see it" without "seeing" it.

    - We try to also use the factory NAMES for stuff, even if at first odd.

    And assistance is easily supplied and easily applied..

    OTOH.... ANY departure from "as-built?"

    THEN ... we have a F**KING Frankenlathe ... that we cannot "see".

    One that may need months of detective work to sort. Or be ABANDONED as a project two or more YEARS out.

    Right way, wrong way, my way? Expensive and wasteful luxury.

    Right way, wrong way, MONARCH WAY? And you will waste less time and money, save more.

    Now ...

    Testing the DC motor. You can connect to the leads at the flat box, HS end, operator side, MG. Or .. the motor "peckerhead". But it helps to be a muskrat to get at it.

    At least until you throw the silly thing away and mount a Hubbell twist-lock atop the motor instead to make space for the "reheat" rig.

    10EE in afterburner? I did say "Frankenlathe? My shop. My rules!

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    Assuming that you have the more common piggyback exciter type, the motor/generator (MG) is a combination unit with both an AC motor and a DC generator. The T1-T9 wires go to the AC motor portion, not the generator. There should be a tag on the MG that tells you which voltage(s) it was built to run at. If it lists both 220 and 440 but only has three wires, it's probably been rewound. You need to look at the coil on the AC contactor (in the compartment on the back of the headstock) and the fuses in the AC disconnect box on the back (if so equipped) to figure out what the machine was set up for.

    Cal
    ---

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    I have pictures of all you have described. I have no way to upload them. What I meant by going into generator is that the terminal box is mounted to generator housing there is a hole going out of terminal box at mounting. The wires disappear through that hole. Where they actually go... there are three knockouts on terminal box. One seems to go to on-off switch plate, another appears to go to generator and third seems to go to exciter. Anyway I could post pictures if someone were to tell me how.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fourierseries View Post
    Anyway I could post pictures if someone were to tell me how.
    Google.

    3/4 of a million hits on:

    how to post pictures on practical machinist forum

    At least one works.

    Sorting out which one ought to keep yah out of pubs and brothels for a spell?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Fourierseries View Post
    I have pictures of all you have described. I have no way to upload them. What I meant by going into generator is that the terminal box is mounted to generator housing there is a hole going out of terminal box at mounting. The wires disappear through that hole. Where they actually go... there are three knockouts on terminal box. One seems to go to on-off switch plate, another appears to go to generator and third seems to go to exciter. Anyway I could post pictures if someone were to tell me how.

    If you go to the South Bend Forum there is a Sticky that explains how to post pictures. You really need photos to get help at this point.

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    Originally Posted by Fourierseries
    I have pictures of all you have described. I have no way to upload them. What I meant by going


    click the image above the posting box that looks like a framed picture.
    Upload or paste the link into the box then click upload file. It takes a few seconds to upload



    Insert Image
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