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43 10ee MG with Parker 514c-16 DC Controller

Rob Mueller

Cast Iron
Joined
Mar 10, 2007
Location
MI
A little history....

Bought this a few years ago from U of Mich in an auction. The 3HP Reliant is in a near pristine condition, no rust. Not so the exciter or generator. Pretty much frozen as it had not been run in original format for a long time. The Monarch DC Control box had been torn out before I bought it. It had a Seco DC Controller in an unknown condition, as I never had it under power. In trying to get it to work, I let the smoke out of the Seco (because I'm an electrical idiot). Fast forward to the purchase of a NOS Parker 514c-16 four quadrant DC Controller. Now what do I do? I ask a few questions on this forum and Cal Haines gives me some good advice. I get my nieces boyfriend, an electrical engineer, and from Cal's posts we get the 10ee to run.

The Seco as I received it.
monarch auction2.jpg

And the Monarch
monarch auction9.jpg

And the back end
20130407_120021.jpg
 
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As the Seco enclosure had the controls, on/off, run/stop, potentiometer, fwd/rev, I stuffed the Parker into the enclosure. It was at this time I asked Cal if he would be interested in designing a circuit so I could get the 10ee controls to operate with the Parker. Over the course of several months Cal got the Parker to run with the aforementioned controls. Nice. This became our baseline to create a schematic to get the 10ee controls to work, the ultimate goal. Cal spent a lot of time and effort and I thank him. Another fast forward and I wondered whom I could get to visit me in Michigan to get the Parker and the 10ee to merge. Sorry Cal, I wasn't going to spring for your airfare. Then I remembered that Cal had spoken to HitandMiss (Bill) about his design. Bill has been an industrial electrician and Monarch owner for a long time. I contacted Bill and we had a few phone calls where Bill said he was coming to the NAMEs show, about an hour south of me. Friday before the show, Bill shows up and runs a number of tests (Bill will tell you what he did electrically).
Bill brought a B&S Tach where we get a good understanding of how the Reliant is running, and to measure against the 10ee mounted tach. We did get the rpm's up to 2300 on the B&S. It seems I have a larger spindle pulley than most.
Bill asked me what I wanted to happen; I said I would like to use as many of the original controls on the 10ee. Here is what Bill did.

Original on/off switch:
IMG_1449.jpg

forward/neutral/reverse:
20140113_153032.jpg

And the lever:
monarch auction6.jpg

Speed Control:
monarch auction8.jpg
 
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Wanted the power on/off control:
IMAG0254.jpg

And I would like it all in this enclosure:
IMAG0262.jpg
 
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So how did it go? I got everything I wanted except the enclosure, but didn't ask Bill to do that. A young friend of mine, Jon, who lives to learn all things, was a great help to Bill and I, where Bill took the time to mentor Jon to understand all the connections. Jon will organize everything in the new enclosure.

Here is how we left everything on Sunday, Bill's second visit.
IMAG0244.jpg
 
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OK, I'll show you the good stuff.
IMAG0247.jpg


Remember, the Parker was stuffed into the Seco enclosure.
IMAG0252.jpg

A closer look:
IMAG0245.jpg

And the Parker:
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And the wired in rheostats:
IMAG0261.jpg

Rheostat Schematic:
parker schematics2.jpg

Parker Schematic:
parker schematics1.jpg


And:
parker schematics3.jpg
 
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I'll let Bill describe the field weakening and all the electrics. But what I have is to me awesome. I have full control of the Monarch with maximum rpm's with field weakening. What we didn't do is add any additional voltage via a buck/boost, none, zip, nada.

The machine will get 2000rpm's as the spindle pulley is larger than some 10ee's (but the motor does spin at 2400rpms. I can use the 10ee for/neu/rev switch. I can turn the 10ee on with the original buttons. I have complete speed control from the appropriate speed knob. The parker provides adequate braking (after Bill jumpered the Parker ramp up and ramp down pots (because I broke them long before he arrived). Bill also fine tuned everything so that the 10ee runs extremely well.

So thank you Cal, Jon, and Bill. You did all this without reverting to a VFD/new AC motor combination.
 
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I'll let Bill describe the field weakening and all the electrics. But what I have is to me awesome. I have full control of the Monarch with maximum rpm's with field weakening. What we didn't do is add any additional voltage via a buck/boost, none, zip, nada.

The machine will get full rpm's, I can use the 10ee for/neu/rev switch. I can turn the 10ee on with the original buttons. I have complete speed control from the appropriate speed knob. The parker provides adequate braking (after Bill jumpered the Parker ramp up and ramp down pots (because I broke them long before he arrived). Bill also fine tuned everything so that the 10ee runs extremely well.

So thank you Cal, Jon, and Bill. You did all this without reverting to a VFD/new AC motor combination.

The line voltage was well over 250 Volts. This provided proper armature voltage, and without any other changes, full motor speed was reached at the existing stop on the rheostat.

The max rpm adjustment on the Parker was tweeked from the factory setting to achieve full armature voltage at the beginning of the field weakening on the motor rheostat.

The accel & decel pots needed to be set to minimum, both were not working properly, so I jumpered them. This provided operation very similar to my own round dial with the inline exciter. The balance of the adjustments were left at factory settings.

Using the existing wires going to the start and stop buttons, new 16 Ga. MTW was pulled in. All wires to the fwd/rev drum switch was replaced with new. All unused wiring was pulled out, this freed up space where the original motor starter was located. It is temporarily used to mount the relays, and will be replaced with a terminal strip when the components are relocated to the new enclosure.

The Generator rheostat measured around 640 ohms, and the Parker 10 Volt power supplies seemed to handle the additional current draw to power the rheostat without complaining. So I used them and the Generator rheostat to control the Parker for the armature speed control. The existing Motor Field rheostat was retained to control the field part of the speed control.

When making chip time arrived, I placed the cardboard over the spindle (first Pix in post 4) to keep chips off the relays.

Bill
 
The line voltage was well over 250 Volts. This provided proper armature voltage, and without any other changes...

Or so it seems. But there is a substantial AC-component on the Armature output of an SSD 514C-16 even when the 3 HP large-frame Reliance motor is connected as load. SCR switching artifacts. 'Real' DC component I measured here, Fluke DMM and Fluke Scopemeter, maxed-out at around 190 VDC. Awaiting a set of high(er) voltage probes for the new Rigol 1054Z to confirm that.

How, and with what instrument, was armature DC voltage on this one measured?

Meanwhile, back at the coal-face... our late and much respected beckley23 made some tests of 1-P 4Q DC Drives without input boost transformers:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...ntrollers-update-99897-post323203/#post323203

(note below on voltages)

Is there perchance a length of 1" 1018 CRS and a TNMG 321 (or comparable) insert handy so a similar test could be made?

Cheap as I am, I'd not suggest wasting 1 1/4" A2 as he saw little difference anyway.

:)


Bill

NB: My voltage measurements w/o boost were slightly higher than Harry's. OTOH, one of the two large-frame and one small-frame 3 HP were out of the machine on the floor, so hadn't even spindle & belt drag on them.
 
Voltages were measured with a Fluke 179
RPM was measured with a Herman H. Sticht K-0S that reads correctly. The Monarch tach reads quite low at all speeds.
All testing was done with the belts on, and chuck or collet closer present.

Harry was treading on very thin ice with only 8 Volts on the field. Normally it should be nearer to 22 Volts at full speed.

To duplicate what has been done here, there may need to be some boost to the 220-240 Volt power to improve performance. Rob's power was closer to 254-255, so no boost was needed to get full range of speed.

Many speed controls have some form of current limit built in. The Parker has an LED that lights (many don't), and when working in the fully weakened field condition, it lights during accel and decel.

As shown on the sketches of schematics, the neutral is used to eliminate the need for a control transformer.

I was more concerned with sparking at the brushes during regen in the field weakened state, than the measured armature voltage, since full motor RPM was obtained.

There were some test cuts done, but tool holding was not the best. By the time I got the Aloris clone set screws modified to securely clamp the tool (the cutter was shifting in the holder), we were out of time.

Rob's objectives were met. The power on/off buttons work properly. The Fwd/Rev lever controls starting, stopping and reversing. The speed control knob provides stepless control over the speed up to the 2000 RPM that the lathe is belted for (the motor turns nearly 2400 RPM for 2000 on the spindle).

It will be a long time before (if ever) he outgrows this setup.

I long ago bailed on the triangle inserts for the larger work. 1/2" IC WNMG Trigons and CNMG 80° diamonds do the bulk of the work now.

Bill
 
Thanks for that.. 'added to the files'

Rob's objectives were met.
.
.
.

It will be a long time before (if ever) he outgrows this setup.

End of the day, that's what matters most, yes.

As to the sparking issue on regen braking - given decent timing, it has not been a problem here even with Armature at 265 VDC.

The differences here, though:

- DC out of both of the DC Drives (SSD 514C-16 Armature, SSD 506 or 508 for Field) is filtered. Heavily so.

That also tames the back-EMF spikes on braking/rapid reversing [1].

- "Almost" single-knob control is used per SSD philosophy. I say "almost" as the field is still on a separate control, Model T throttle/timing or Cessna 172 RG throttle/pitch style. Changing that awaits moving over to tachogenerator feedback.

Boosting the field to 140 VDC makes for fast-enough stops/reversing without (so far) any need of using the terminals the SSD 514C provides for external ramp rate setting.

Bottom line is that commutator/brush sparking is really very minimal, all modes. I credit both the SSD (far more sophisticated and 'gentle' than a contactor-reversed 1Q BICL D510!), and the massive inductors of the filters.

That said, all testing to-date has been done with a 'naked' D1-3, no mass of collet adapter, let alone a heavy chuck and workpiece, so I cannot call it definitive.


I long ago bailed on the triangle inserts for the larger work. 1/2" IC WNMG Trigons and CNMG 80° diamonds do the bulk of the work now.

Bill

Thanks for that as well.

"HSS guy" here mostly, so I had to have an offline exchange with Harry a while back to insure I could at least get 'close' to his test setup when the time came.

If we ever get enough folks interested in comparing, I suppose one tool as he used could be compared to something better to simply set another reference point.

(yet-another) Bill


[1] Load-side filtering as heavy as I am using ALSO introduces latency into the overall IR sensing circuit, and WILL require tacho feedback for decent regulation under load. Still working on that part.
 
Congratulations on finding some help and getting that machine working. Thanks for sharing your solution.
 
Update: The Parker is working as planned. I have the enclosure temporarily on magnets and attached to the back/rear side of the lathe. Still need some additional wire management of the conduit, but it sure is nice to get the skins back on the monarch.

IMAG0296.jpg
 
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Hello,

At the expense of drumming up old discussions, since I’m a new owner of a ‘52 square dial 10ee, I found this thread extremely interesting. I was hoping I could ask those involved if they could provide some additional comments/feedback on how well the implementation using the Parker 514C is working out. It’s been about 5 years since, so I would imagine you have a better understanding of the pros/cons of going with this setup. I have an m-g machine, that is not currently running, but when it was demo’ed to me, was extremely loud. Too loud for my small residential garage. I’m hoping to find a better way to power the 3hp Reliance dc motor. Any words would be most helpful. Thanks!
 
Hello,

At the expense of drumming up old discussions, since I’m a new owner of a ‘52 square dial 10ee, I found this thread extremely interesting. I was hoping I could ask those involved if they could provide some additional comments/feedback on how well the implementation using the Parker 514C is working out. It’s been about 5 years since, so I would imagine you have a better understanding of the pros/cons of going with this setup. I have an m-g machine, that is not currently running, but when it was demo’ed to me, was extremely loud. Too loud for my small residential garage. I’m hoping to find a better way to power the 3hp Reliance dc motor. Any words would be most helpful. Thanks!

I'm also very interested in any more information on this setup!
 
Hello,

At the expense of drumming up old discussions, since I’m a new owner of a ‘52 square dial 10ee, I found this thread extremely interesting. I was hoping I could ask those involved if they could provide some additional comments/feedback on how well the implementation using the Parker 514C is working out. It’s been about 5 years since, so I would imagine you have a better understanding of the pros/cons of going with this setup. I have an m-g machine, that is not currently running, but when it was demo’ed to me, was extremely loud. Too loud for my small residential garage. I’m hoping to find a better way to power the 3hp Reliance dc motor. Any words would be most helpful. Thanks!
I'm also very interested in any more information on this setup!

I check in with Rob, Everything is working flawlessly 6 years later.

Bill
 








 
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