The Adventures of my 1942 Monarch 10EE. - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moddage View Post
    ...
    This is a 1942 vintage Model EE, Serial number 14888. It was originally sold to General Electric corporation, and as such it appears to have gotten outfitted with a GE Motor-Generator and a GE DC Motor instead of the typical Reliance equipment, which I assume was pretty much because GE could, and they probably wanted it powered by their own parts. Actually my theory there is that they needed it ASAP for reasons related to the war efforts at the time and sent their own MG and DC Motors to Monarch to furnish it with to get production done sooner. I've seen another member on here post a while ago(can't remember the thread or name) and they had a serial number numerically lower than this one, that was delivered much later than this one was.
    ...

    Attachment 311931Attachment 311932Attachment 311933
    You definitely have an unusual machine. I haven't seen these particular drive components before, but they are obviously based on the Reliance inline-exciter motor/generator (MG) drive, commonly found on 10EEs prior to 1942, but not on machines of your vintage. I doubt very much that this machine was shipped without a drive and I don't think that this is the original drive, for reasons that I'll discuss.

    Here's a bigger photo of your General Electric MG:


    For comparison, here's a photo of TravisMartin's Reliance inline exciter MG, from EE10110 (built 06-1041):
    ee10110_dsc00001_1-inline-exciter.jpg

    Note that the Reliance AC motor and generator are housed in the same tubular case. The General Electric AC motor and generator have their own cases, connected by a short tube with flanges on the end. (I would be interesting to know if your motor and generator have a common shaft or are connected together by an inline coupling.) Note also the differences in the exciters. The General Electric generator has provision for covers on the spider, over it's commutator, the Reliance does not.

    Here's a bigger photo of the AC end of your General Electric MG:


    Here's the AC end of Travis' Reliance MG:
    ee10110_dsc00022.jpg

    There are two things to note here: 1) You have a style of base used for piggyback exciter machines, with the larger tailstock access panel (the 10EE base was revised to provide additional space for the belt-drive exciter); 2) The Reliance MG has a cast fan shroud that serves as the end cover for the main motor & generator casing; the GE fan shroud appears to be fabricated from sheet metal and attaches to the end of the AC motor. I suspect that if you remove the cover for the fan discharge, on the back of the base, you'll be able to find evidence that the hole was cut in the field, rather that cast.

    More to come.

    Cal

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    Looking forward to more of your detailed analysis Cal,

    I have a hypothesis as to the seemingly older-style drive being in the newer base casting, as well as the potential "field modifications" to make it fit this lathe. And it potentially lends to this actually being original and not replaced as well.

    A member on this forum had/has a 10EE with an earlier serial number than mine (I believe in the 13k range) that had production started sooner, and was delivered later, than my lathe was. I can't remember the number and I don't seem to have it bookmarked, but I'll keep looking.

    The only explanation I have to an earlier serial number 10EE, with an earlier production date, being delivered later than my lathe is that GE being the customer, and a capable motor and Motor-Generator supplier at the time used their resources to furnish Monarch with the M-G and DC Motor to get this lathe out the door and in their hands faster. Perhaps GE had the inline MG unit and DC motors in stock but not specifically for this lathe, so they modified the inline unit to fit Monarch specs and got it out the door to Monarch as quickly as possible.

    It is possible it was replaced at a later date, but I kind of doubt it based on what I've seen. the hard formed conduit in the lathe base does not appear to have been modified or replaced, the wiring and all the metal tags attached to it appear to be the original blue insulation Monarch seemed to use, and the same exact metal tags they used as well. Unless someone took great care to modify the conduit and not lose any of the metal tags on the wires, I'm inclined to believe this MG and motor were installed by Monarch. But that's just a theory. I have not been able to locate any date codes on the MG or Motor with them installed in the machine, perhaps I will find something when I remove them to replace bearings and brushes. Google doesn't seem to bring up the part numbers on either piece, and all the "Speed-Variator" related pictures I've been able to find are large cabinet assemblies that seem to have a similar motor and generator in the bottom (coupled together, not as one assembly, and no exciter off the end) and I've noted the "Speed-Variator" tag is riveted to the motor/generator, not the electrical connection box. I think this particular unit may have been custom built for this lathe and potentially is a 1 of 1 sort of scenario. The manual for this lathe is marked as belonging to the "Advance Engineering, DC Motor & Generator Department" So it's certainly not outside the realm of possibility that this was built specifically to go in this lathe and this lathe only to avoid a production delay. But that's all just a theory. If it was replaced at some point, it may still have been custom built/assembled for this lathe, as I've not been able to find photos of another GE Motor-Generator assembly like this anywhere I've looked, and I've spent quite a number of hours trying to figure it out last year.


    (I would be interesting to know if your motor and generator have a common shaft or are connected together by an inline coupling.)
    When I take it out and apart to replace bearings, I will certainly document how it's constructed and solve some of the mystery. I'm hoping there are dates written in places on the inside of the assembly and I can narrow down when it's from.


    EDIT: You may find these interesting Cal, 2 General Electric Speed Variator Guides Electronic Gea-5335 & 5336 1949 | eBay. 1949 brochures for GE Speed-Variator products from the Schenectady NY plant. Looks like they were using the over-under configuration by this point, so perhaps this in-line MG was leftover or custom built in a hurry like I hypothesized. You've got me curious now too, but it seems to be that this lathe is sort of a "unicorn", at least where the MG and DC drive motor are concerned. The control box in the headstock end seems to be all Monarch.

    EDIT 2: So I got curious and decided to take the blower end of the MG apart. The blower fan housing doesn't look to be a field modified piece, it looks like it was purpose built for this MG unit. The fan has to be removed to remove the housing, which is odd, and the fan has clearly been off before and not gently, the fan is distorted in several places and the shaft it goes on is not very pretty, almost looks like someone had a pipe wrench on it at some point. What was surprising to me, is there's a grease fitting buried behind all this, I removed the exit plug and looked up inside it with an inspection mirror, and to my horror, I could see all the way up to the bearing housing, there appeared to be zero grease in it. So I pumped it full of Synthetic Super-Lube, it meets Timken wheel bearing test specs, so it should be excellent for this application. I also took the opportunity to grease the exciter end, which has an externally visible grease fitting and exit plug. To my horror on this one, there was some dark brown grease in it, but it was crusty and dry. What's interesting is there are only two grease fittings on the unit that I could see or find, I can't imagine there being one in the middle of it buried inside the generator section too, but I'm not certain of that. If that's the case, there's only two bearings, one at the exciter end, and one at the blower end, and suggest it being all on one common shaft.

    The MG unit is notable quieter now and doesn't make the same dry/wearing bearing noise when it's spooling up or down. I also noted that it took less time to come to a stop with the added stiction of the fresh grease in the bearings, the poor thing has probably not been properly greased for quite a number of years. I also made note that the brushes in the exciter and generator sections are worn and should be replaced, the brushes in the DC motor however look quite new and have many years of life left in them. The DC motor also has "Grease cups" on both of its bearings, I had to google what these were as I've never seen them before. Apparently it's an old tech way of greasing bearings, you fill the cups with grease the screw them on to push the grease into the tube/bearing, and then at a certain interval(which I don't know) you turn them a little bit to push some more grease in, and keep doing this until they eventually bottom out and that means they're empty and need new grease. Both of them have a brown colored grease in them that was not hard or chunky, so I put them back on until I felt some resistance from the grease and then went a little more. I'm a little less concerned about the bearings in the DC motor having gone dry now.

    Pictures are attached.

    mg-fan-removed.jpgmg-blower-housing1.jpgmg-blower-housing2.jpggrease-cup2.jpggrease-cup3.jpg
    Last edited by Moddage; 01-31-2021 at 02:15 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moddage View Post
    Looking forward to more of your detailed analysis Cal,

    I have a hypothesis as to the seemingly older-style drive being in the newer base casting, as well as the potential "field modifications" to make it fit this lathe. And it potentially lends to this actually being original and not replaced as well. ...
    I disagree, but I'll save that for later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moddage View Post
    ...
    EDIT 2: So I got curious and decided to take the blower end of the MG apart. The blower fan housing doesn't look to be a field modified piece, it looks like it was purpose built for this MG unit. The fan has to be removed to remove the housing, which is odd, and the fan has clearly been off before and not gently, the fan is distorted in several places and the shaft it goes on is not very pretty, almost looks like someone had a pipe wrench on it at some point. What was surprising to me, is there's a grease fitting buried behind all this, I removed the exit plug and looked up inside it with an inspection mirror, and to my horror, I could see all the way up to the bearing housing, there appeared to be zero grease in it. So I pumped it full of Synthetic Super-Lube, it meets Timken wheel bearing test specs, so it should be excellent for this application. I also took the opportunity to grease the exciter end, which has an externally visible grease fitting and exit plug. To my horror on this one, there was some dark brown grease in it, but it was crusty and dry. What's interesting is there are only two grease fittings on the unit that I could see or find, I can't imagine there being one in the middle of it buried inside the generator section too, but I'm not certain of that. If that's the case, there's only two bearings, one at the exciter end, and one at the blower end, and suggest it being all on one common shaft.
    ...

    mg-fan-removed.jpgmg-blower-housing1.jpgmg-blower-housing2.jpg
    As I said, the fan shroud is made from heavy sheet metal, unlike the castings used for the Reliance inlines. I can't tell if the vent hole in the casting was cast or cut with a torch/saw. The webbing for the inline MG fan was left in the pattern for the base casting and remained through the life of the base, which was modified at least twice: first to make space for the piggyback exciter, then to add the vent for the WiaD drive.

    It's never a good idea to mix modern grease with old. I would pull the MG so that you can properly clean and re-grease the bearings. I recommend Mobilith SHC 100 (NGLI 2) grease, which is a high-speed electric motor grease.

    BTW, someday I hope to be able to experiment with different fans for my MG. (I've long theorized that the 10EE's blower is really a reject from pre-war air raid siren development, designed primarily to be loud, and only moving air as a side effect.) Having the fan on the end, where it's easily accessible, would make experimentation much easier.

    Cal

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    Let's talk about DC Control Panels.

    Here's a photo of Lance-W's DC Control Panel from EE13938, built May of 1942:
    ee13938-dsc04814-dc-control-panel.jpg

    This panel is typical of 230 VDC, inline exciter machines, wired to drawing EE-2442. (I'll call this one an "EE-2442" panel.) Note the cylindrical, red, GE 250VDC "Thyrite" suppressor, the rectangular Cornell-Dubilier (C-D) HC 323 capacitor module and the DC panel overload device, all in a row above the forward/reverse (F/R) contactor assembly. (EE13938, as found, was equipped with a rare, external "fire plug" motor/generator, which is probably why a machine built that late would still have 230 VDC excitation.) Some of these panels show up with a square, metal-cased C-D Type DY capacitor module, available with either one, two or three capacitors (link).

    Note also that the bottom of the anti-plugging (AP) relay (that's the one in the middle) is ABOVE the top of the overload device and there is only a small amount of space between the bottom of the field acceleration (FA) relay (on the left) and the top of the F/R contactor assembly.

    Here's the DC control panel from your GE machine:

    Note the locations of the overload device and capacitor module, relative to the Thyrite device. I do NOT believe this is an EE-2442 panel. Look at the amount of space below the FA relay.

    Here is a DC panel from one of thermite's machines, EE17120, built 9-1942:
    ee17120-dc-control-panel-front_1.jpg

    I don't know what to call this panel, since I've never seen the wiring diagram that goes with it. It's very similar to panels wired using drawing EE-2674, but they have a second Struthers-Dunn (S-D) CX3334 relay in place of the SD42S14 anti-plugging relay used on EE-2442 panels. So I've decided to call this an EE-25XX panel, since it belongs somewhere in between EE-2442 and EE-2674. This is a panel for piggyback exciter machines with 115 VDC exciters.

    Note the second overload device, in place of the Thyrite device and C-D triple capacitor module on the right. See how the F/R contactor was shifted down to accommodate the second overload device?

    I believe that what you have is an EE-25XX panel that was rewired for use with a 230 VDC exciter MG set, probably using drawing EE-2442. The Thyrite module is not original to the panel and the second overload device has been deleted. You can see the holes in your panel for the wires from the second overload device. An EE-25XX panel would make sense, based on the build date of your machine, so it's probably the original panel.

    BTW, while I was researching this, I noticed that Darkshadow converted his machine to VFD and might still have the original EE-2442 panel from his machine. You might try sending him and e-mail.

    More later . . .

    Cal

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    I can't tell if the vent hole in the casting was cast or cut with a torch/saw.
    I'll inspect it closer and see what I find. From the other photos I have of that end, it looks fairly smooth and seems to have radiused corners more consistent with being cast, but the focal point of the photo wasn't on that area and I can't see fine details very well. In person inspection is needed, and maybe some closer photos.


    It's never a good idea to mix modern grease with old. I would pull the MG so that you can properly clean and re-grease the bearings

    I know, at some point the MG is going to come out and apart and get brand new bearings. The bearing noise is diminshed, but not gone, so I'm inclined to believe that I probably didn't get to them in time. The Super-Lube I pumped in came out of the bearing on the fan end just as clear as it went in, zero traces of old grease came with it, not a great sign. It is NGLI 2 grade at least, and is acceptable for use in a large variety of applications. It's also an excellent dielectric and my go-to grease for polyurethane suspension bushings, and o-rings. My other choice on tap at the moment is a Schaffer's Moly EP grease (Ultra 221). I'll look into the electric motor grease you mentioned for when I take the MG and DC motor out. I have no idea what grease is in the DC motor grease cups and don't want to cross-contaminate that as it runs quite smooth, so I will probably pull it apart and clean/flush the existing grease out of it and replace it with a known suitable grease like you mentioned, and use the same in the MG when it gets new bearings.

    BTW, someday I hope to be able to experiment with different fans for my MG. (I've long theorized that the 10EE's blower is really a reject from pre-war air raid siren development, designed primarily to be loud, and only moving air as a side effect.) Having the fan on the end, where it's easily accessible, would make experimentation much easier.
    I'm not going to disagree, it's quite noisy, though I don't think I'd compare it with an air-raid siren. Perhaps the sound my MG unit emits is different from the typical 10EE blower? My fan isn't in superb shape and has been pulled apart and reassembled by an ape at least once before, so it doesn't run anywhere close to true, which I'm sure isn't helping the noise situation. I plan to try and straighten that out when I tear down the MG, but it's not really adversely affecting operation so I didn't spend time on it yet. I briefly ran the MG without the fan installed and was pretty surprised how much it reduced the noise. That being said, with all the covers in place it isn't anywhere near as bad. I've been running the lathe with the end over removed due to Drill-starting the MG presently, I reinstalled the cover after I got it spooled up with the new grease in place and was asking myself why I didn't put it back on every other time. My ears thanked me.


    My biggest gripe with the MG up to this point has been how horrendously noisy it was, turns out part of it was bone dry(probably damaged) bearings, part of it is the slightly abused blower fan, and part of it was running with the base covers off. I can actually tolerate the noise level it's presently at with the covers installed, I anticipate that getting better after the MG gets new bearings and maybe a shaft balance. The commutator in the generator section seems to have a little more runout than I'd expect, so I'm hoping the shaft isn't bent somewhere and that's just play in the bearings that went without maintenance for too long.


    This isn't a daily use/need machine at this point, and I'm chipping away at it while doing other projects that are more pressed for time. But it's on my list for a near complete teardown, cleaning, new way wipers, evaluate the apron/carriage oiling system, and find out why the interlock between the half-nut lever and the feed direction knob doesn't seem to exist, and fix the threading gearbox not engaging or staying engaged properly. I got a quote from Monarch for all new wipers, price isn't too bad considering how long it would take me to try and cut them all myself, I have better things to do with my time than cut those. I know there is some debate about the old style material vs the new felt, and the old material potentially being superior, but at this point, any material at all is better than the way wipers currently in it. Interesting note, I asked Monarch if they knew what the old material was just for curiosity sake, and they said old prints indicated "Mexican Felt" and the current material is "Resisto Felt". I have no idea what "Mexican Felt" is, aside from maybe a specific felt type originating from Mexico? Perhaps it was a common thing back then and I'm not old enough to know what is is, and google didn't do me any favors, I got mostly useless results of clothing and things non machine related... I think the plan is to order the entire assortment of wipers from Monarch so I can replace them all when I do the teardown and clean the decades of grotesque amalgamation of oil, grease, dirt, and chips of various flavors from everywhere it exists. I'm bordering on considering repainting the machine at the same time because of how apart it will be, but I don't know if I want to get into that. Plus if I make it pretty I won't want to get it dirty by using it

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    I missed your second reply somehow...

    I don't know what to call this panel, since I've never seen the wiring diagram that goes with it.
    Perhaps Monarch knows the correct diagram based on serial number? I asked them for a copy of EE-2442 specifically because that was the number on the small photocopy of the diagram that I got with the machine. And during my troubleshooting/assessment of the electrical components, so far it's been correct. But I do see the differences, both in thermite's panel, and the documented EE-2442 panel. Very interesting indeed. I'm glad I'm not the only one crazy enough to dig deep into this oddball combination of parts in my machine. I spent a lot of time researching, but my working knowledge of the variances of EE's is not even close to yours. I may not have ever found some of the things you have presented due to not knowing where to begin to look. I didn't come across either of those electrical panel photos during my hours of digging around last year.

    I find it really interesting that thermite's 9-1942 machine has a significantly higher serial number than my 9-1942 machine... Apparently the serial numbers Monarch assigned aren't chronological? Or did they produce that many machines within such a small window? Did they even have the capacity for that kind of production at that time?

    I appreciate the time you're putting into my "mystery machine", I'm just as curious as you seem to be to try to solve its mysteries. I understand now why you're leaning more toward molested electrical system rather than original. That being said, hypothetically, if GE did furnish the MG and Motor to Monarch during its construction, seemingly based on older 10EE parts they reverse engineered, do you think it's possible Monarch assembled it using the newer panel board design for the 115V exciter machines as well as the piggyback base casting, but just wired it for the supplied GE parts and 230V excitation? The mixture of two "generations" of 10EE parts has me really curious how this came to be the way that I have it now.


    Thanks for the heads up about Darkshadow, I'll shoot him an email and see if he still has his panel, that could potentially sway me to repair the existing parts simply for ease and time.


    Side note, I found your post about the Monarch felts you ordered not fitting your Round Dial, Here. I assume I'd have the same issues with fitment you did if I end up ordering them from Monarch. I've seen elsewhere the use of F5 felt, and noticed you mentioned F1, do you think there would be a benefit to going even one step firmer to S2-20? Perhaps it would compress less over time, and increased compression/pressure on the ways would help keep chips out from under the carriage better? Or do you think F1 is the upper limit for durometer of felt to use in this scenario. Based on your post it seems I may have to hand cut my own felts after all... Yet another time I wished I had a laser cutter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moddage View Post
    My biggest gripe with the MG up to this point has been how horrendously noisy it was, turns out part of it was bone dry(probably damaged) bearings, part of it is the slightly abused blower fan, and part of it was running with the base covers off. I can actually tolerate the noise level it's presently at with the covers installed, I anticipate that getting better after the MG gets new bearings and maybe a shaft balance. The commutator in the generator section seems to have a little more runout than I'd expect, so I'm hoping the shaft isn't bent somewhere and that's just play in the bearings that went without maintenance for too long.
    My first 10EE was a 1943 with MG. I went through it and rebuilt it, hand scraped the cross slide and compound, fixed the ELSR rube goldberg setup incl. repoured babbit bearings, overhauled the 2-spd gearbox, replaced the MG and DC brushes, etc. But it was just too noisy. Could not hold a conversation with it running or hear the classical music I like in my shop. So I bought the 1940 machine and haven't looked back in 25 years. Since then I also owned and rebuilt a 74 modular, a 57 WIAD and my current project, a 59 WIAD. None tempted me to sell the 1940 machine. It is quiet, lives up to its Monarch pedigree and I am happy with it.

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    Interesting, I suspect the MG in my machine is probably not as loud as the reliance units. After greasing the bearings, you could probably hold a conversation just fine with the base covers installed now. It’s substantially less noisy than before. But still, that constant whir in the background can get to you. That’s part of the reason I refuse to have a rotary phase converter. It would be nice if the only sound the 10EE made was making chips, but it is what it is for now.

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    The Modulars and WIAD machines are a lot quieter than MG machines. If you keep the fan impellers clean it helps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    It's never a good idea to mix modern grease with old. I would pull the MG so that you can properly clean and re-grease the bearings. I recommend Mobilith SHC 100 (NGLI 2) grease, which is a high-speed electric motor grease.
    Seconded. Vehicle wheel-bearing grease is optimized to resist wash-out that can result in seizing, snapping the spindle off. Happened to me, 1959 TR-3 on US Route 1 at 50-55 MPH. Electric motor grease is a very different formulation.

    BTW, someday I hope to be able to experiment with different fans for my MG. (I've long theorized that the 10EE's blower is really a reject from pre-war air raid siren development, designed primarily to be loud, and only moving air as a side effect.) Having the fan on the end, where it's easily accessible, would make experimentation much easier.
    Works a treat. Not that MY ears would much notice without use of the SPL meter!

    The type you want is "backward impeller". Designed to move air that way.

    AND NOT running a vanilla one in reversed-rotation. Tried that. "downdraft" kitchen range. Bad move. Quiet enough, but cooks its motor.

    Axial fans can be both backward impeller and have blades covered with mini-golf-ball effect hemi-bumps. Very quiet! Find those in the food-service hood exhaust fan trade as external roof or wall mount repair parts.

    "Oh, BTW" Cazeneuve's early-generation HBX-360-BC?
    FAR worse as to howl than a 10EE! Being ALREADY deaf can be a blessing!

    POST War TWO air-raid siren built in to cool the early-type external band spindle brake. And then.. the not-a-Reeves but same concept variator drive is only the INPUT to a geared-head!

    Check the Cazeneuve out on You Tube and be aware they do not even really pick up how loud it can be "up close, and personal".

    Be happy a 10EE MG is already kinder to the remains of your hearing. Really. It is.

    Mind.. an SSD drive doesn't own, nor need, a fan of any type. 500 mW waste at idle, a mere 55W of waste heat to shed at 6 HP max. Passive heat-sink covers that, no fan required.

    120 Hz "growl" on accel/decel, otherwise with the rear covers damping the belt noise, you hear "mostly" the spindle bearings .... or the tool making its chips.. unless the threading/surfacing geartrain is actually doing work.

    Not as nearly-dead-silent as a good Hardinge, but "close". Schaublins are noisier.

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    Had the same crack in same place... Broke the SOB and had to drill and uncoil threads to get it out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    Here is a DC panel from one of thermite's machines, EE17120, built 9-1942:
    ee17120-dc-control-panel-front_1.jpg

    I don't know what to call this panel, since I've never seen the wiring diagram that goes with it. It's very similar to panels wired using drawing EE-2674, but they have a second Struthers-Dunn (S-D) CX3334 relay in place of the SD42S14 anti-plugging relay used on EE-2442 panels. So I've decided to call this an EE-25XX panel, since it belongs somewhere in between EE-2442 and EE-2674. This is a panel for piggyback exciter machines with 115 VDC exciters.
    That machine was ORDERED in December of 1941, had the "Thomas & Betts" goods, disconnect, et al onward. Several other PM members still have that panel, the Ohmites, motor switch, and the salvaged MG as well. All I kept was the motor, not even an inch of wire.

    Order-date is when serial numbers were created, whether there is ANY part of the machine actually put into work besides a drawing set .. if EVEN that much?

    I cannot tell, as the austere set that came with my manual is a drawing with waaaay later revisions to an original that was already newer than the machine.

    From prior comparisons of S/N and data-plate dates, "at least" several machines for Canada - already well into the war - were ordered later, but jumped over 17120 by War production Board priority juggling as to completion and delivery, before 17120 was finally delivered in September of 1942, ten months after the order went on record.

    Was it actually IN production the whole time and being asided in a partially completed state? Then put back under skilled hands for another increment of work?

    I doubt it. That is not how we RUN a factory when under the guns of emergency. At all. DAMHIKT.

    FAR more likely MTW were building at a combat speed, straightest, least complicated production routing, least confusion, they could manage, with batches of 10EE asided temporarily only for critical shortage of key parts awaited.

    Safe bet that all SORTS of "make it do" and old-rev/new-rev overlaps and changes were going-on all through the war, but heaviest between 1939 and - I'd guess, early 1943 - before production had cleaned-up old stocks and gone reasonably stable for the rest of the war.

    My other 10EE is a 1944 "whitemetal" round-dial, first gen "ELSR".

    MG and panel are not the same at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rimcanyon View Post
    The Modulars and WIAD machines are a lot quieter than MG machines. If you keep the fan impellers clean it helps.
    They are quieter but the Reliance MGs are a lot smoother. The huge 3 hp motor is almost equivalent to a servo motor. The Modular I maintain with solid state thyratron replacements fires very uniformly but in a series of little jerks. If you are doing something that requires smooth, very slow speed, the MG is hands down winner. About all I have had to do to one that is in daily use in a job shop is wiggle the brushes occasionally.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    They are quieter but the Reliance MGs are a lot smoother. The huge 3 hp motor is almost equivalent to a servo motor. The Modular I maintain with solid state thyratron replacements fires very uniformly but in a series of little jerks. If you are doing something that requires smooth, very slow speed, the MG is hands down winner. About all I have had to do to one that is in daily use in a job shop is wiggle the brushes occasionally.

    Bill
    Bill that's interesting. What would you add to a modular or WIAD power supply to make it smoother.?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rimcanyon View Post
    Bill that's interesting. What would you add to a modular or WIAD power supply to make it smoother.?
    Not quite as "critical" on the hollow-state Thyristor drive.. because of where its transformer sits in the circuit.. but probably the same trick as MUST be used on those with Solid State single-phase input DC drive. Where the Drive-Isolation/boost transformer is not in the right place to smooth the output atall.

    DC output side ripple filter.

    See also the Yaskawa/Magnetek reference circuit @ 10 HP for the "Quiet Elevator".
    Do the math to scale the values of L & C off their 10 HP example to 3.0 to 4.6 HP or 5.0 to around 7 HP (all 10EE's have the reserve to over-Volt their DC motors vs "nameplate", so both of torque and HP are greater than what is listed on the motor's data plate.... when hard-pressed).

    I chose to go with the simpler Reliance // Eurotherm/Parker-SSD circuit using lumped inductance only.

    That let me avoid age-sensitive capacitors, not worry about reversing them, polarity-wise as the motor was switched from FWD to REV or was being braked or over-run "managed" by the "4Q" logic.

    First one, I had a salvaged Lenze variable inductor AKA "swinging choke"

    Typ 15067, Art no 310-332 WBW 9705-08

    40 mH @ 10A, 12 mH @ 18 A

    .... annnd.. those are just two reference points on a smooth curve, so... lovely fit to the need!

    Couldn't find any more of those, so next up, I bought two Hammond 20 mH @ 20A, one for everetteengr's 5 HP conversion, the other 'to be shipped' to another experimenter, both as "donations to the cause."

    As I'm committed to the nominal 3 HP "large frame" for its servo-like smoothness, as 9100 Bill mentioned, and driven at 4.3 HP to 4.6 HP reserve/peak, I don't need 20A, so have put by a pair of Rex 17 mH @ 16A fixed chokes.

    I've used Coilcraft (ferrite) and Lenze (Silicon-steel) chokes on the field supply output as it, too, otherwise wants to buzz the motor @ 120 Hz.

    I DID "trial" the capacitors as per the Yaskawa/Magnetek scheme. There was not enough left to be gained in audible noise reduction over a bare choke that I felt the need for the extra complexity and reduced longevity of the caps.

    What does it sound like? The 120 Hz "two pulse" "growl" on accel or decel from the motor compartment migrates to a much LESSER "growl" from wherever the chokes are located. And that is only on significant acceleration or deceleration.

    Steady running is VERY quiet. Loudest sound is either the geartrain or the tool in the cut.

    More useful? The smoothing effect improves overall performance, most especially in extending the useful range DOWNWARD under mid-range & low power demand.

    Higher RPM, "Field Weakened" range, the Armature supply is usually at or near-as-dammit 100% ON-time duty-cycling.

    A(ny) Thyristor class drive at low power has a loooong "OFF" time to deliver lower Voltage, followed by short, but brutally-switched BANG of "ON" time.

    The big, fat, choke helps smooth that so the motor is not doing all the current-realm "integrating" of power under the curve by itself.

    The MG, of course, always has the same RPM, the same much lesser transitions as it comutates, and drops its power LINEARLY by analog field control in the generator, AND NOT by hybrid analog/digital duty-cycle switching ... so is always exactly as smooth, regardless of Armature Voltage or load.

    Cannot match that with a single-phase only Thyristor-class drive. Tubes OR dirty-beach sand.

    Can get FAR closer to MG "rotating power" with linear analog control by using a 3-Phase-only DC drive.

    Even then you'd want a sophisticated "24-pulse" model, not the vanilla "6-Pulse".
    And STILL add the ripple-filter choke.

    A(ny) MG is too noisy?

    Just pull it, sandbag the base casting, put the MG outdoors in a "dog house", up in the attic, down in the basement, or some other way the other side of a sound-proofed wall ..... and long-wire it.

    Same as you do with an RPC, air compressor, or the Diesel, yah? Sound radiation / transmission degrades on an exponent over distance, even in free air, no absorbant or deflection barrier. Takes very little of a barrier, and noise is no longer an issue atall.

    Space. And Copper wire. That cheap. That cheerful.

    That simple.


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    Seconded. Vehicle wheel-bearing grease is optimized to resist wash-out that can result in seizing, snapping the spindle off. Happened to me, 1959 TR-3 on US Route 1 at 50-55 MPH. Electric motor grease is a very different formulation.
    That's interesting, I've never had a wheel bearing that still had good grease in it seize up on me... I don't know anyone who has either. That sounds like another rabbit-hole research topic for a rainy day.

    The grease I used in the MG isn't specifically a vehicle wheel bearing grease. It CAN be used in such applications as it meets the Timken/ASTM 4 ball load test specs and washout specs, but it's a multi-purpose synthetic grease with PTFE(Teflon), and is used in all sorts of applications, including food grade/safe machinery lubrication requirements. From a functional standpoint(and some personal experience), I don't see an issue running it in an electric motor or motor-generator bearing, it doesn't form gummy deposits like other greases do, and in my experience seems to retain its base oils really well over time and not turn crusty/chunky/nasty if not replaced by new grease at the same intervals you'd want to perform with most greases. I use it for all sorts of stuff that isn't an Extreme Pressure application. I have bearings in tools that spin far faster than the MG or Motor that I greased with it years ago and haven't changed the grease out in, and they're still running and functioning just like the day they got the grease. Maybe electric motor grease is more "technically" correct, maybe it's better, maybe not, but I do know that what I pumped into the MG and the most likely damaged bearings is not hurting anything at all, as noted by the immediate reduction in bearing noise.

    I've been using Super-Lube in just about every ball bearing application that doesn't require an EP grease for years now and it's become my go-to grease for just about anything. It's also impervious to salt water and has a very broad temperature range. I've spent an absurd number of hours researching grease, grease compatibility, spec sheets, and have narrowed my grease on hand to two primary tubes. Super-Lube (NLGI 2), and Schaffer's Ultra 221 (3% Moly, also NLGI 2) for EP applications like my skid steer pivot points, and some specific EP bearing uses. The Moly content being at 3% doesn't cause roller slip in bearings like a 5% or higher Moly grease can(Aeroshell 33MS for example).

    I do agree that typically mixing old and new(modern and classic) grease is not a great idea, nor is mixing the Schaffer's grease I use with certain bases. The Schaffer's I have is an aluminum complex grease, which limits its compatibility significantly, which I am aware of, but it is compatible with lithium complex grease, which is what most common greases tend to use as a base. If I'm unsure of a grease type that is in something I'm going to use the Schaffer's on, I flush all the old out and replace it all. The Super-Lube I pumped into the MG bearings that were lacking pretty much all grease at this point, is compatible with every grease type except silicone. Which is why it's my "one grease fits most" choice, and has been for years.



    Back to 10EE related stuff:

    Thermite,
    With regards to your machine (17120) being "ordered" Dec 1941 and delivered 9-1942, how do you find an "ordered" date out? The lathe record sheet Monarch sent me doesn't seem to have an "ordered" date. It has a "Promised" date of 6-2-42, and a "Mo. Sched." value of "July". I see nothing about an "ordered" date, and I already asked Monarch if they had any other records or documents pertaining to my serial number and was told they did not. They don't even have the record of the sale of the spindle bearings that I have the print from.


    All,
    I'm beginning to think based on some descriptions of the typical 10EE MG noise, that mine doesn't make the same sound or maybe even dB level. Anyone have good audio(video?) of the Reliance Inline and piggyback units running so I can get a feel for them? I've found some video of Sunstrand, WiaD, and maybe a 50s+ MG machine, but no inline or early piggyback MG machines running that I could find (perhaps I need to look more broadly and sort through more results?) I'm also curious if any of you have dB meters (even cheap ones) to get a sort of reference of how loud each drive type is, not that there's really any valuable information there, more for curiosity sake.

    I suspect when I teardown the MG unit to put new bearings in it, and also fix and balance the slightly bent blower fan, that it will get quieter still from where it is now. Here's hoping anyway.


    Bill that's interesting. What would you add to a modular or WIAD power supply to make it smoother.?
    I too am interested to hear some thoughts on this. I have noted how amazingly smooth this DC motor drive is, seems Monarch got it right early on with the 10EE, for many reasons, the variable speed drive being one of the big ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moddage View Post
    That's interesting, I've never had a wheel bearing that still had good grease in it seize up on me... I don't know anyone who has either. That sounds like another rabbit-hole research topic for a rainy day.
    It was once all-too-common on Triumph TR-3's!!! "Notorious" for it, "back in the day".
    ..narrowed my grease on hand to two primary tubes. Super-Lube (NLGI 2), and Schaffer's Ultra 221 (3% Moly, also NLGI 2) for EP applications
    And I like Kluber's Isoflex. Because it LASTS about nine years longer still "in spec" against chemical / age degradation than other greases.

    And many of my bearings require tear-down to re-lube. Penurious Iyam, but LAZY even more so! Worth the money as those particular bearings also only NEED a tiny amount of grease anyway. Buy it in small amounts, use it UP? Next go can be YEARS fresher than what you have had lying about for ten years, already the day you put it into the bearing. Grease degrades even in storage, y'see.

    So it's more about nuisance labour and "freshness" for max life than it is about the cost of the grease.

    Back to 10EE related stuff:

    Thermite,
    With regards to your machine (17120) being "ordered" Dec 1941 and delivered 9-1942, how do you find an "ordered" date out?
    That - the original order, and for what customer (Ford in my case) is part of what Terry at Monarch has in the files as her jump-off point when she starts to pull together your manual off the Serial Number.

    One does have to remember to ASK?
    Annnnd.. "wartime" records may be imperfect.

    They don't even have the record of the sale of the spindle bearings that I have the print from.
    They may not have even been involved. Lots of us here, now, have sourced and replaced our own bearings even as scarce as they are NOW. Why not GE back when they were rationed, but at least still in current production? 10EE was not the only consumer.
    I'm beginning to think based on some descriptions of the typical 10EE MG noise, that mine doesn't make the same sound or maybe even dB level. Anyone have good audio(video?) of the Reliance Inline and piggyback units running so I can get a feel for them? I've found some video of Sunstrand, WiaD, and maybe a 50s+ MG machine, but no inline or early piggyback MG machines running that I could find (perhaps I need to look more broadly and sort through more results?) I'm also curious if any of you have dB meters (even cheap ones) to get a sort of reference of how loud each drive type is, not that there's really any valuable information there, more for curiosity sake.
    I'm former hearing-aid industry, so yes, of course I have an SPL meter! No longer Brüel & Kjær, just one of the medium-grade Chinese ones. I HAVE to have. I'm kinda DEAF!

    And you-tube videos may or may NOT have any decent relationship to ACTUAL sound at the operator's position of a(ny) machine-tool. They are not ordinarily made by qualified audio techs in a lab environment.

    Keep THAT and the usual "grain of salt" in mind, too - don't put a huge amount of credence on them as representative.


    I suspect when I teardown the MG unit to put new bearings in it, and also fix and balance the slightly bent blower fan, that it will get quieter still from where it is now. Here's hoping anyway.
    Bent fans CAN be lower-noise than true ones!
    Bearings, lube, and brushes you chase. Those are what matter most.

    I too am interested to hear some thoughts on this. I have noted how amazingly smooth this DC motor drive is, seems Monarch got it right early on with the 10EE, for many reasons, the variable speed drive being one of the big ones.
    Monarch were not even CLOSE to being the first. Just one of those that made a LOT of them.

    Harry Ward-Leonard introduced the "MG" drive in the 1890's. Most were used for elevators, winches, capstans, and cargo hoists, not all of them on dry land. His company today specializes in goods for submarines and offshore oil rigs.

    The MG is a form of power analog electromagnetic "Amplifier". It has massive "cousins" with far higher "gain" that 9100 Bill (and not-only) is familiar with.

    Think warships and directing their guns. Floating cranes that serviced warships. Cargo ships as hauled railway locomotives and heavy battle tanks. Enormous power required. MG & mag amps were players as were steam and hydraulics.

    A 10EE is just one more "niche" application in a very large industry.

    GE had been a "Ward-Leonard drive" player long before Lincoln/Reliance began making MG's as "unitized". The early 1930's Reliance "Fireplug" MG as was adapted to become a 10EE "inline exciter". Or was even used "as-is" as an outboard power controller sitting nearby, shaft vertical.. looking like.. would you believe it?

    A "fireplug"!


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    Quote Originally Posted by rimcanyon View Post
    Bill that's interesting. What would you add to a modular or WIAD power supply to make it smoother.?
    Either a filter choke, capacity, or both. This is a common problem in SCR controlled power supplies, not limited to lathe drives. The present system is like keeping a flywheel going by banging on its spokes with a hammer. The choke or capacitor stores voltage during the peak and releases it during the off periods. I had a system going with a single phase magamp that had similar characteristic to a thyratron. I could smooth it out a good bit with a capacitor, at least until it blew up from the high currents in and out. I would use a choke first with some capacity for the choke to work against. A fundamental problem with the Modulars is that they are single phase. They may say three phase on the label, but they only utilize one phase. Three phase SCRs would be a big help, but that is a whole redesign., I had a three phase magamp working very well but I am not likely going to have the time or facility to develop it. I have my shop up for sale and then I will only be able to impose on others for some work space. Besides, at 85 every day is a crapshoot. Forget that nonsense about "golden years." Old age sucks.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    The present system is like keeping a flywheel going by banging on its spokes with a hammer.
    Worse than that. It is as if your SCR bangs equally HARD on every spoke at full power, drops back to waiting 'til the spoke has almost coasted out of reach to give it a smaller tap, at LOW power demand, but far more SHARPLY!

    Because it is "too late NOW" to catch the start of a smooth Sine-Wave right after zero-cross and ride the curve. Instead, it switches the diode ON at a point the source is closer to peak ELSE declining.

    If I need uber-smooth at light load? It can pay-off to switch the "array" of my boost transformers to lesser Voltage input so the DC Drive is ON earlier and for more of the cycle vs OFF.

    ==

    Old age? A privilege. Denied to many.

    And it still beats all Hell out of the ALTERNATIVE!

    Still hanging onto 5 packs of Pall Mall menthol 100's a day, here at anarchy-manor.

    A man has to have SOME cargo left to throw overboard once sex, booze, fast cars, and slow airplanes are long gone!

    Actually.. the Jaguar is faster than ANY of the aircraft in my logbook could stand even in a Vne dive.

    But I no longer am when left-seating it!


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    Smoking 5 packs a day must be a full time job.

    Hal


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