The Adventures of my 1942 Monarch 10EE. - Page 4
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  1. #61
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    [QUOTE=thermite;

    Old age? A privilege. Denied to many.

    And it still beats all Hell out of the ALTERNATIVE!

    Still hanging onto 5 packs of Pall Mall menthol 100's a day, here at anarchy-manor.

    A man has to have SOME cargo left to throw overboard once sex, booze, fast cars, and slow airplanes are long gone!

    Actually.. the Jaguar is faster than ANY of the aircraft in my logbook could stand even in a Vne dive.

    But I no longer am when left-seating it!

    [/QUOTE]

    I have very few friends my age and none who smoked, even if they quit somewhere back there. I apparently quit soon enough and have outlived all the people, mostly sports car and track racing folks, who gathered for lunch on Saturday. For a couple of years I would drive 10+ miles to pick up the last one for lunch, but the cigarettes got him a couple of months ago. It's like being in a tontine with no reward at the end.

    For many years I have told young people to never make fun of the old. You will either get to be like them or you won't.

    Moddage and Rim, Thermite's solution to smoothing torque sounds right, both from the viewpoint of stress on the thyratrons and longevity. I haven't looked at it, but you might need to add a reverse diode to snub the reaction from the choke.

    Somewhere back in the archives there is a rundown I posted on the 3 hp motor. The guy who designed it knew what he was doing. 3 windings and commutator bars per slot, brushes slightly offset from others to make the transition from bar to bar blended, and four brushes to provide more segments per rotation, again slightly staggered. Au contraire, I had a W. W. Grainger motor that had 5 commutator bars and at low speed moved in a series of jumps. Another case of getting what you pay for.

    Bill

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  3. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moddage View Post
    ...
    Perhaps Monarch knows the correct diagram based on serial number? I asked them for a copy of EE-2442 specifically because that was the number on the small photocopy of the diagram that I got with the machine. And during my troubleshooting/assessment of the electrical components, so far it's been correct. But I do see the differences, both in thermite's panel, and the documented EE-2442 panel. ...
    I think that everyone who knew about motor/generator drives is long gone from Monarch. Ten years or more ago Scott, then the lead technician at Monarch, told me that he had never seen a round-dial 10EE. Beyond selling brushes, Monarch doesn't really support MG machines. Terrie, the nice lady who handles parts orders, told me that round-dial documentation was classified as "OBSOLETE/DISCARDED" and hence wasn't stored in any coherent fashion. She was kind enough to search "the catacombs" for round-dial assembly drawings and came up with very little.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moddage View Post
    ...
    I find it really interesting that thermite's 9-1942 machine has a significantly higher serial number than my 9-1942 machine... Apparently the serial numbers Monarch assigned aren't chronological? ...
    As far as I know, serial numbers were assigned when the machine was ordered. Serial numbers (the six digit numeric part) were assigned sequentially to lathes of all sizes. If an order got cancelled, the number was not reused. Orders got put on hold for various reasons, perhaps they were bumped by a higher priority order or the customer put a hold on their order. I can show you several examples of machines with serial numbers that are quite different from other machines with the same build date.

    I've been collecting 10EE serial numbers for over 15 years. Here's a list of other 10EEs with EE14XXX serial numbers:
    • EE14030 built 5-1942
    • EE14123 built 6-1942
    • EE14124 built 6-1942
    • EE14140 built 4-1942
    • EE14266 built 6-1942
    • EE14309 built 6-1942
    • EE14315 built 5-1942
    • EE14331 built 7-1942
    • EE14332 built 7-1942
    • EE14510 built 6-1942
    • EE14561 built 5-1942
    • EE14755 built 4-1942
    • EE14877 built 9-1942
    • EE14888 built 9-1942

    As you can see, the build dates don't correlate well with the serial numbers. Interleaved with the EE14XXX serial numbers were nine or so EE15XXX serial numbers, built mostly between June and September 1942. I even found serial numbers as low as EE11560 and as high as EE18332 built during 1942. A number of EE17XXX machines were built around the time of yours, including EE17120 and EE17521, built the same month as yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moddage View Post
    ...
    hypothetically, if GE did furnish the MG and Motor to Monarch during its construction, seemingly based on older 10EE parts they reverse engineered, do you think it's possible Monarch assembled it using the newer panel board design for the 115V exciter machines as well as the piggyback base casting, but just wired it for the supplied GE parts and 230V excitation? The mixture of two "generations" of 10EE parts has me really curious how this came to be the way that I have it now.
    ...
    I'm also curious how this came to be. But I don't think that GE provided the motor and MG set to Monarch or that it's original to the machine. Your build sheet lists the Drive Unit assembly number as EE-3-20. rakort's build sheet has the same drive unit number and his has a Reliance piggyback MG, with serial numbers that match his Form M-129, so there's no question what he got. I assume that if the customer supplied the MG set and motor, it would be noted on your build sheet. I think you said that you bought the documentation package from Monarch, if so, try calling Terrie and asking if she can find the Form M-129 for your machine. It should list the serial number of the MG and perhaps the spindle motor.

    One possibility is that something happened to the original MG set and that a replacement for the failed component (perhaps the exciter) wasn't readily available or it was less expensive to build up an MG set in house. It's possible that GE didn't build 3HP DC motors with 230 VDC armatures and 115 VDC fields, to so the entire motor plus MG set were replaced. Another possibility is that GE was bidding to supply MG sets to Monarch and it was a prototype.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moddage View Post
    ...
    Side note, I found your post about the Monarch felts you ordered not fitting your Round Dial, Here. I assume I'd have the same issues with fitment you did if I end up ordering them from Monarch. I've seen elsewhere the use of F5 felt, and noticed you mentioned F1, do you think there would be a benefit to going even one step firmer to S2-20? Perhaps it would compress less over time, and increased compression/pressure on the ways would help keep chips out from under the carriage better? Or do you think F1 is the upper limit for durometer of felt to use in this scenario. Based on your post it seems I may have to hand cut my own felts after all... Yet another time I wished I had a laser cutter.
    I went with the F1 felt because it was the firmest that McMaster-Carr had available. I didn't spend a lot of time researching it. I keep my ways pretty clean and since my machine doesn't get much use, I'm sure that the felt wipers will out last me.

    My machine, as found, didn't have the laminated rubber and felt wipers that rimcanyon mentioned. IIRC, that was a square-dial thing, but I'm not sure. I don't think that any of the wipers that Monarch sold me were laminated. If you want to go the laminated wiper route, it would be easy to make your own, using contact cement to laminate the felt to thin rubber sheets (I would probably use BUNA rubber).

    It's not a problem to cut your own wipers. The way wipers are mostly rectangular pieces. For things like the top-slide and compound wipers, you can use the wiper cover itself as a template. The only tricky one would be the wiper for the tailstock spindle, but the wiper Monarch supplied worked fine there.

    Did you buy your machine off of eBay? I noticed that it was listed there twice.

    Cal

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    Somewhere back in the archives there is a rundown I posted on the 3 hp motor. The guy who designed it knew what he was doing. 3 windings and commutator bars per slot, brushes slightly offset from others to make the transition from bar to bar blended, and four brushes to provide more segments per rotation, again slightly staggered.
    LOL! "You are the one" .... who got my attention focused on it, and why I stuck with them instead of the (nominal) 5HP.

    That "Type T" - designed for wide-range variable speed and smooth at all RPM - was a Lincoln Electric // Reliance development, might have been 20 or 30 years before the first 10EE got an electric drive. Lifting and hoisting was the market they were targeting. Main downside is that it has lower power-conversion efficiency than otherwise as the complex windings do the "gentle" hand-off.

    Next closest competitor - also an early-days innovator of speciality and "premium priced" niche-market' DC motors - was Louis-Allis.

    Whether GE built them, or a third-party purchased GE motors and generators and integrated them, GE goods were in use as Ward-Leonard drives for more than 30 years before Reliance introduced the unitary "Fireplug", again several years before the first "R&D" 10EE existed.

    When coming off the Sundstrand hydraulic drive, the 10EE was adapted first to existing Ward-Leonard drives, not the other way around.

    The "piggyback" exciter was the first serious modification to build a system specifically suited to what the 10EE needed, performance-wise, not "package SHAPE" - wise. Even then, it was a parts-bin - or "drawings from the files" exercise.

    Custom solutions was what Reliance had adopted as their best shot at a niche in a market that was dominated by GE & Westinghouse, in their "early days". Reliance went on to become a rather large and diversified firm in their own right by the time Exxon acquired them and tried to push that model further yet.

    "Inline" exciters - adapted from the early/mid 1930's generic-solution MG "fireplug" - did not have much leverage as to Field-power control for dynamic response to load. They tended to overheat and fail the tiny exciter section. Many of those still in-use have had to have a separate rectifier substituted for the exciter, so have even less ability to respond helpfully to load.

    It will be interesting to see how the GE - adapted from some other already-existing line in a similar manner as the earliest Reliance had been - actually performs.

    My guess is "in between":

    - As good if not better load regulation and less vulnerability to overheat than an inline-exciter Reliance

    - Not a good as to regulation nor as overheat-resistant as a piggyback exciter Reliance.

    Size, shape, etc. as the hints.

  5. #64
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    One possibility is that something happened to the original MG set and that a replacement for the failed component (perhaps the exciter) wasn't readily available or it was less expensive to build up an MG set in house. It's possible that GE didn't build 3HP DC motors with 230 VDC armatures and 115 VDC fields, to so the entire motor plus MG set were replaced. Another possibility is that GE was bidding to supply MG sets to Monarch and it was a prototype.
    I had considered the prototype possibility angle myself actually. The Motor-Generator and spindle drive motor are both tagged as GE Schenectady NY plant products. The Speed-Variator Motor-Generator units seeming to come from that plant in the 40s from what I have found. However the Speed-Variator name eventually was used on SCR and other solid state DC drives manufactured at the Erie, PA plant in later years. Some of which were built specifically for Monarch Machine Tool Co. I found some manuals for such units on eBay.

    I don't think we will ever know the true answer of how this specific configuration in its current state came to be, sadly, because I'd love to know. I'd also love to know what this machine actually produced in its life, especially the wartime years.

    Did you buy your machine off of eBay? I noticed that it was listed there twice.
    Nope, and to my knowledge my serial number machine was never listed on eBay. It came directly from the GE Transportation Systems plant in Erie, PA. via an internal purchase request after discovering it was destined to be scrapped due to all of its issues being deemed not worth the time to fix after Wabtec bought GETS from GE.

    Are you sure my serial number machine was on eBay? Do you have the listing(s) for it if so? I found one on eBay a while ago with a near identical color, but a different serial number, and I believe it was a square-dial also. I'd be curious to see those listings if you have screen shots or links that still work.

    This machine as far as I'm aware has lived in the Advanced Engineering Motor and Generator department at GETS Erie since delivery. My father(among others) ran it as part of his job for several years until the electrical system finally crapped out to the point of non-function just before Wabtec bought GETS. It was "on the list" to be repaired before the buy-out, and after the acquisition occurred it was deemed too costly to fix and destined for scrap. My dad went through the red-tape procedure of requesting to purchase the machine and associated parts as scrap and we would handle all of the rigging, moving and removal from the property, and after a rather long period of hearing nothing, finally was granted approval with a 48 hour window to remove it from the premises. Which led to an all hands on deck call in every favor we could mad-dash to get it within that window... And now it lives in the garage where I'm slowly chipping away at all of its issues, electrical and mechanical, breathing new life into a once-neglected but worth-saving(to us anyway) 10EE. A lathe that I knew all about long before I knew this actually happened to be one. Honestly I didn't care what it was, I just knew we had a chance to save a lathe from scrap that had mostly electrical issues and that I was plenty capable of repairing whatever was wrong with it. Finding out it was a 10EE was one of the best days of my life. I'm guessing what happened was they found out that there is basically no parts availability to repair it due to the age of the machine, and perhaps even got a quote from Monarch to refurbish it and found out how expensive that is and as such determined it was junk. Which, to be fair, for a company to pay out to have someone properly repair a 1942 machine that doesn't come close to meeting current safety standards and has no E-stop, it was the right move for them. There are plenty of more modern and safety compliant machines in working order from machine shops closing down that they can just acquire for hardly anything and have a working machine. Primarily because the tasks that need a lathe in that sector these days no longer require the precision that once required the 10EE.

    I have no idea what this machine produced "back in the day" but based on the significant wear on the steady rest "fingers", the rough diameter of a piece that would cause such, and the building/department it came from(or what it used to be labeled based on my owners manuals), it probably had something to do with motor/generator shafts. GE Erie was producing generators for aircraft in the 50's for sure, I would venture to guess those were high precision items, and perhaps what this machine was used for. GE developed turbine aviation engines around 1941 I believe, and some other things I once dug up and can't remember, that all had some connections to the facility this came from. So there's no shortage of possible high precision items this would have been needed and used for, I can only guess as to what it actually contributed to over the years. I do know the GE Erie was producing pack-howitzer cannons, I believe tank parts, and other war related items around when this machine would have been delivered. I tried to find a link between GE Erie and the Manhattan project since these lathes are known to have been a part of that, but came up dry. Though if my memory serves me right, GE was involved somehow, just maybe not the Erie facility(or it was kept under wraps for some reason).

    I think you said that you bought the documentation package from Monarch, if so, try calling Terrie and asking if she can find the Form M-129 for your machine. It should list the serial number of the MG and perhaps the spindle motor.
    I have not purchased any documentation from Monarch. Terrie sent me the build sheet for free, and I have two copies of the owners manual that were kept with the machine. I did inquire about purchasing records for the lathe recently and from what it sounded like, the only thing she had available would be the build sheet she already sent and a copy of the owners manual. Perhaps I didn't ask for the right "package" ?


    That "Type T" - designed for wide-range variable speed and smooth at all RPM - was a Lincoln Electric...
    Well that's a really interesting thing you bring up... I once heard a story from an old-timer that used to work for GE, and one of his jobs back in the day, 8+ hours a day, was to replace nameplates on Lincoln Electric motors and "rebrand" them as GE motors... I don't know years or specifics, but the gist of the story was there was a huge shortage of motors (I'm guessing around WWII era), and GE was buying motors from Lincoln and putting their own nameplates on them instead and shipping them along with in house produced units to keep up with demand... I wonder if that's what this spindle motor actually is...


    It will be interesting to see how the GE - adapted from some other already-existing line in a similar manner as the earliest Reliance had been - actually performs.
    Time will tell on how it performs, I haven't run it much personally, but as mentioned above my father ran it for actual work when needed for several years prior to the cascade of electrical related issues that happened beginning with a defective contactor coil, eventually rendering it inop. He indicated that it's always run great up to when it stopped working. Perhaps if it wasn't some weird prototype hybrid thing that occured during initial construction, they had issues with the Reliance drive and replaced it with their own in-house design that they had already proven worked reliably for years in the field. As far as I know, anyone who would actually know the history of this machine and may be able to solve the mystery is long gone, possibly even no longer alive at this point. I think it's probably a safe guess that GE Erie, Schenectady, and other locations had multiple 10EEs at various times, and perhaps overlapping all at once during the "early years", considering Schenectady and Erie both had the capability to R&D and build motors and generators(as witnessed by the Schenectady tags on my drive parts, and the fact that this was stationed in a Motor and Generator engineering department at Erie) it's possible that this was "upgraded" to fix an overheating issue or similar problem after it was run a bunch and for multiple shifts during war time. I'm still not ruling out prototype though, mostly because it sounds cooler


    They may not have even been involved. Lots of us here, now, have sourced and replaced our own bearings even as scarce as they are NOW. Why not GE back when they were rationed, but at least still in current production? 10EE was not the only consumer.
    I would venture to guess Monarch was involved with the spindle bearing replacement since the "blueprint" with the bearing part numbers on it is their drawing, and appears to be an order document stating that said bearings were "enclosed" and came from Monarch(perhaps via Wigglesworth who was a/the Monarch dealer). It also seems to indicate that the originals were the "heavy preload" and the new replacements from my decoding (thanks to this forum) are medium preload. I posted a photo of the "blueprint" somewhere back in the thread.


    As for new updates:
    I posted in the M-G thread that I got the beta-test using the china VFD to run the MG unit accomplished and it went well. Final implementation still to occur. I've not been tinkering with the lathe "full-time" as I have other things going on, but I have been slowly chipping away at it and making a game-plan for all the repairs/retrofits/updates. I plan on fixing the electrical issues first, and then will mechanically disassemble and clean, repair, and reassemble everything. I'm planning a near full teardown at this point. The headstock will remain attached, but I may pull the spindle assembly so I can flush the headstock with kerosene and clean in there without releasing whatever horrors are stuck to the walls into the bearings. The oil I drained from the back-gear housing was rather terrible, I can only imagine what the oil in the headstock looks like and when it was last changed. The rear spindle bearing housing seems to have a leak, as it's been low and I've topped it off twice, so I'd like to solve that too while I'm at it. Oddly though, it doesn't seem to have gone down since the last time I topped it off, and it's been longer than the duration between the first two times, so I'm not sure what's up with that.

    After the electrical issues are sorted, I plan to replace the carriage bearings, fix the issue with the half-nut lever not being mechanically inhibited by the feed direction knob, clean and de-grease the entire machine and scrape all the layers of nasty off the bed and chip pan. I'm a little afraid to look in the coolant sump, but that's going to get cleaned and the coolant leak at the fitting/hose that feeds the pump fixed. All new way wipers everywhere are on the list to do, and the big mechanical project that needs solved, is fixing the threading gearbox so it actually stays engaged and I can use it. I have a hunch it's a bent/worn shift fork or a worn shim or something of that nature, but I will find out for sure once I get it apart.


    Lots left to do, but once it's all done, it should be relatively low maintenance for maybe the rest of my life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moddage View Post
    ... Are you sure my serial number machine was on eBay? ...
    My mistake. It was EE14877 that was listed on eBay. Too many hours of staring at serial numbers, I guess . . .

    Cal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moddage View Post
    I once heard a story from an old-timer that used to work for GE, and one of his jobs back in the day, 8+ hours a day, was to replace nameplates on Lincoln Electric motors and "rebrand" them as GE motors... I don't know years or specifics, but the gist of the story was there was a huge shortage of motors (I'm guessing around WWII era), and GE was buying motors from Lincoln and putting their own nameplates on them instead and shipping them along with in house produced units to keep up with demand... I wonder if that's what this spindle motor actually is...
    Highly unlikely that it relates to Reliance Electric & Engineering.

    More than one "Lincoln" involved, and the very reason the founders of Reliance changed FROM "Lincoln" TO "Reliance" was the potential for confusion, early-on, and very close to home.

    Any time after those early-early years, IF GE was rebranding it would have been one of the OTHER "Lincoln" sources. Re-branding was/is not all that rare, BTW.

    Fair common to buy-in a whole line of specialty or size-range, sell-out a whole 'nuther line, and not be accused of price-fixing nor collusion to divide-up the market.

    As several motor & large turbine generator makers HAD done GE & Westinghouse at the top of the list...gotten caught at, paid heavy fines and even saw Executives serve jail terms over.

    Federal procurement RFQ's of the era actually stated:

    "bidders may specify any leading make .. except Westinghouse.."

    ...and such-like language.

    The motor lines eventually were sold-off. ISTR Taiwan's "TECO" owns that part of the Westinghouse brand, present-day? Other major line brands are owned / have become JV's ... with different partners for appliances, nuclear, HVAC, etc.

    Reliance was an Exxon property before ASEA-Brown-Boveri (ABB) ended up owning them. Last time I looked, rolled-in with Baldor under Rockwell-Automation?


    The headstock will remain attached, but I may pull the spindle assembly so I can flush the headstock with kerosene and clean in there without releasing whatever horrors are stuck to the walls into the bearings. The oil I drained from the back-gear housing was rather terrible, I can only imagine what the oil in the headstock looks like and when it was last changed. The rear spindle bearing housing seems to have a leak, as it's been low and I've topped it off twice, so I'd like to solve that too while I'm at it. Oddly though, it doesn't seem to have gone down since the last time I topped it off, and it's been longer than the duration between the first two times, so I'm not sure what's up with that.
    If I had JF pulled the spindle, I could have saved about two hours a day over a two-week period CAREFULLY getting ALL the settled-out crud-mud out of front and rear housings. WANTING it to settle out is why you run DTE Light, not DTE 24.

    The rear leak-down is "standard" when a Round-Dial is actually run. Left near-as-dammit static, it can take about 3 months to lose but a third. Capacity is only about 4 OUNCES, rear, 3 OUNCES, front, so top-ups are more nuisance as to insuring absolute CLEANLINESS than they are money out of pocket.

    I keep a common kitchenwares stainless-steel "bulb-operated" turkey baster double-bagged in zip-locks to do that top-up with.

    My containers of DTE & Vactra are ALSO double-bagged to make it easier to go grit-free when the time cometh to decant a ration of any of them.

    ISTR member RC99 "downunder" finally located whyso for the leak.. better-yet, essentially put a stop to most, if not all, of it with a bit of sealant in the right place to stop the primary source of the static leakage?

    Splash-lube from down below getting into a vent up-top is another source of aggravation on the multi-sight-glass early Round Dial. That can be corrected, too.

    Later 10EE had several improvements, then gave it up and went-over to sharing the imperfectly clean and not-quite-right lube rather than running the far WORSE risk of having NONE at all!

    I think MTW got it right the first time.

    Uber-Uber precision bearing lube should not have to be shared where WEARING parts such as gears and dog clutches live and shed way, way more fretting corrosion metal particulates INTO said lube. Especially when neither positive-pumped nor filtered - as DTE 24 is meant to be.

    I have a hunch it's a bent/worn shift fork ..
    One of mine was BOTH bent AND worn, would only do the do with the selector knob pulled out to clear the detent pin and a clamp hung off it to hold it where it needed to be. PITA and the ugliest scene since the hogs ate the kittens, but it worked.

    I had sorted out a way to correct it "in situ" with some add-on Bronze "booties", but another member had a shifter fork - used, but in much better condition - from a part-out.

    These are best changed whilst you have the spindle OUT, so if that is actually what you need, put it on the "don't forget" punch-list, get one or plan a BUNCH of work to repair it, and test-fit it for when you get a round-tuit. Lest you have to pull the spindle more than once.

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    Yeah, thatís why Iím planning to pull the spindle... less time spent being super careful, and better cleaning access. I have no desire to pull the spindle more than once, almost donít want to do it once, but as I can only imagine the state of the headstock oil reservoirs, Iíd rather not flush any junk into the bearings. From what Iíve read ďright here on PMĒ itís about a 30 minute job or so to pull the spindle, and then Iíll carefully wrap/bag it in a containment method Iíve yet to come up with to keep dust and such out of the bearings while sheís torn down for service. Can you really trust a brand new garbage bag to be clean enough inside to bag the spindle from one of these? Iím inclined to think no, but maybe Iím just being over-cautious.

    I like your double bagged stainless baster and oil jugs idea, I may end up doing the same.

    As for the oil filtration thing, itís funny you mentioned that, I thought it was odd there was none, and briefly had the idea of figuring out where to drill and tap to add a circulating pump and filter to the headstock reservoirs. But I think if itís lasted this long with the original design, having freshly cleaned insides and new oil with regular changes should be fine.

    As for the shift fork thing, I donít think itís the one in the headstock thatís the problem, seems to be in the gearbox. If I pull the knob out and hold it as far past the detent pin as I can get it to travel(not much, but enough) the threading output seems to stay engaged, but Iíve yet to apply cutting pressure and try it like that. Need a third hand to hold it engaged for that operation.

    Iím hoping the bearings inside the apron can be saved and cleaned and new grease applied... from what Iíve seen, theyíre sealed bearings with grease, Iím wondering why MMT didnít come up with an oil lube feed off the existing apron oil pump system when they were so close already. Seems it wouldnít have been that much more effort and pieces to oil the bearings in the apron with the existing lube system. I donít think mine are beyond saving though, the hand wheel action feels nice and smooth. The Gib bearings on the underside however are toast. We shall see once I get it opened up. Thatís coming AFTER I finish modifying camshaft bearings(grooving the upper shells via the 10EE for part of a semi-complicated engineering fix relating to oil clocking on my VW TDI) and reassembling my engine. Once the main workhorse car is back together and running again(and out of my way) I can set up table space and start disassembling the 10EE for maintenance and repair.

    Side note: I acquired a new drill chuck and arbor(didnít own one that fit the 10EE), and a mix of carbide insert tooling and some HSS tool blanks. Didnít quite have what I needed to finish this cam bearing grooving job, but now I do, once I grind a custom tool up for the groove profile I need to make.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moddage View Post
    As for the shift fork thing, I don’t think it’s the one in the headstock that’s the problem, seems to be in the gearbox. If I pull the knob out and hold it as far past the detent pin as I can get it to travel(not much, but enough) the threading output seems to stay engaged, but I’ve yet to apply cutting pressure and try it like that. Need a third hand to hold it engaged for that operation.
    First used a spare Stillson wrench and a bit of cut-off Polyvee belt to protect the knob's knurl. Weight of the Stillson was enuf to prove it out. I don't actually NEED to single-point, I just needed to get the dog clutch to NOT drag.

    Now .. pull the curved CI top cover, then the sheet-steel windage panel under it, look down in whilst you manipulate that knob.

    The shaft of it has a pinion that operates a round shaft cut with rack teeth.

    Shifter fork involved is similar to a crow-foot wrench executed in Bronze with a "foot" that is screwed to the shaft. The Cee "fork" moves the dog clutch between FWD NEUtral and REV for synchonized drive off the spindle into the threading geartrain. Surfacing operations, no "sync" to the spindle all that important, the flat belt drives the gearbox instead.

    Pretty sure we are talking same knob, same fork, same type of damage as on my '42 without ELSR, but NOT damaged on my '44 which DOES have the early "high rod" ELSR.

    I’m hoping the bearings inside the apron can be saved and cleaned and new grease applied... from what I’ve seen, they’re sealed bearings with grease, I’m wondering why MMT didn’t come up with an oil lube feed off the existing apron oil pump system when they were so close already. Seems it wouldn’t have been that much more effort and pieces to oil the bearings in the apron with the existing lube system. I don’t think mine are beyond saving though, the hand wheel action feels nice and smooth. The Gib bearings on the underside however are toast. We shall see once I get it opened up.
    Only a few of the bearings are scarce items ELSE need modified. New ones are best, as getting the old ones "clean" is time-consuming. I worked it out using the vee-belt idler bearings for a test, given they are even cheaper. No biggie if it didn't work.

    I used a small baked-bean-tin stripped of its paper label on an 80 mm hotplate electric element with a witch's brew of oils and solvents. It had to be cooked for a loooong time before all the crud had dissolved enough to flush-out and re-lube. All the while a fire-hazard.

    Might work at room-temp if left for a month, but ... the storal of the morey is you still have a bearing that is fair certain to have been damaged as it was initially seizing, skipping, and skating back in the days when it first began to seize-up. EG: still a damaged bearing, even once cleaned-up. And even so, you may have corrosion of the balls, races, and cages as well.

    Ergo not worth it. Better to skip the screwing around, go shovel enough snow to earn the price of bearings, shop for a good price, buy 'em .. and KNOW they will be OK.


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    inkedfeeds-threads-box_li.jpg

    Knob circled in red is the one I'm talking about. On the gearbox itself. The one circled in green for Left/Right hand direction seems to work perfectly fine.


    The knob on the gearbox that changes between feed and thread pulls out and rotates as you'd expect, and as I rotate the spindle by hand I can feel it click into place like the clutch (I believe a dog clutch type, unless I'm looking at the parts breakdown wrong) engages. But when you put the spindle under power the engagement is too shallow to even keep just the leadscrew rotating with no load applied by the half nuts. If I pull the knob out and hold it slightly beyond the detent pin that protrudes from the face of the speeds/feeds plate, the gearbox and leadscrew will stay engaged, at least enough to run the leadscrew with no load. It appears there is a dog clutch operated by a shift fork on the input shaft to the threading gearbox that is controlled by this knob, and something is worn or bent beyond acceptable engagement limits. I'm guessing it's the ends of the shift fork that ride inside the dog ring or whatever the engagement mechanism is. The dog clutch appears to be on parts Picture E-4, parts 24 and 32, and the shift fork mechanism seems to involve the rack and fork pieces 110-112, perhaps the fork is just loose from the rack and it's an easy fix once it's torn down. When it "pops out" there is a noise consistent with dog clutch teeth dragging/skipping, which is why I believe the failure lies within the operation of this mechanism. Hopefully its just a shift fork I can repair and isn't actually the dog clutch teeth.


    As for the carriage Gib bearings, those are well beyond trying to save, and also common and inexpensive... I'm thinking I might go with 629-2RS variants instead of the 629-ZZ. There was/is a lot of small chip debris on them from years of use, and I'm betting some real fine chip particles have made their way past the shields over the years and contaminated the bearings. A sealed bearing seems like a better choice for this location vs the original shielded set. Especially on a machine that has flood coolant available, and may get used on occasion.

    As for the apron bearings down inside the assembly, I believe I was misremembering the bearings used or remembering someone else's repair or modification, but based on the parts picture I just looked at, it appears all the bearings down inside the apron are open side units that are lubricated by the oil inside the apron instead of shielded or sealed with grease. Which would explain why the apron operation still feels nice and smooth, those bearings are probably perfectly fine. For some reason I had thought they were sealed and grease filled, perhaps that's how they are on a square dial apron? It's been a while since I looked at an apron teardown and it's possible the thread I was in was from a much later machine and they went to a sealed bearing for those, but I'm not certain of that either.


    I may take some inspiration from Cal and add ball oilers to the carriage while it's apart, or perhaps just a single ball oiler/oil injection point that feeds through the existing oil distribution system tubes so I can pre-lube everything when it sits without being run for a while. As it is now, I occasionally crank the carriage to both ends of the bed a couple times when I think about it. I also keep the ways covered in a lightweight oil film to keep it from rusting, and that seeps under the worn out wipers too.


    Speaking of oil:

    The manual I have shows the spindle bearing reservoirs as taking 1pt of oil, a lot more than the 3-4 ounces you mentioned...

    Also, the Heavy-Medium oil is shown used in the headstock center reservoir, back-gear, threading gearbox, tailstock, ways, and apron oiling system. I was wondering if there would be any benefit, or perhaps adverse effects/reasons against running an ISO-68 way lube in the apron and tailstock instead of the ISO-68 DTE Heavy-Medium. It's my general understanding that way lube is a little bit tackier and tends to be engineered to cling to the ways better. After I replace all the wipers, adding way lube manually to the ways only for the wipers to push it out of the way and the DTE Heavy-medium in the apron reservoir to replace it via the pump system seems counterintuitive. Wouldn't it make more sense to fill the apron reservoir with way lube instead? Or is there no reason to even use way lube and just run the Heavy-Medium that the original manual calls for?


    Edit: I've read through the operation manual and even tried skimming through some threads on here for the information, but I've come up empty. Can you change the feeds/speeds on these 10EE's while the spindle is under power but the apron power feeds and/or half nuts are disengaged? Or do I have to stop the spindle every time I want to make a feedrate change? I haven't really found any information indicating that it has to be done without the spindle powered, but also haven't found anything indicating it wont hurt anything to "unlock" and change the feedrate and reengage it while the spindle is running.
    Last edited by Moddage; 02-14-2021 at 04:48 AM. Reason: Added some information, and another question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moddage View Post
    inkedfeeds-threads-box_li.jpg

    Knob circled in red is the one I'm talking about. On the gearbox itself. The one circled in green for Left/Right hand direction seems to work perfectly fine.
    OK. Different place, same fault. The shift mechanism will be in need of repair, yes.

    The dog clutch will need TiG'ed and reshaped.

    There is prior art "right here, on PM" for that operation as to (at least) reduction gearbox dog clutch. Same operation as to TiG and reshape. Tedious, but it has worked very well.

    Speaking of oil:

    The manual I have shows the spindle bearing reservoirs as taking 1pt of oil, a lot more than the 3-4 ounces you mentioned...
    A pint was 16 fluid Ounces last time I look, a cup 8 ounces. Could was that's the minimum container size one should have put-by. I don't think you will get anywhere close to a pint into the pair of them, total. But it matters not.

    Just give it time to flow to sight-glass level point as you fill, cease adding, record what was used in your notebook for next go.


    Also, the Heavy-Medium oil is shown used in the headstock center reservoir, back-gear, threading gearbox, tailstock, ways, and apron oiling system. I was wondering if there would be any benefit, or perhaps adverse effects/reasons against...
    I just buy what they specified and use it. Better things to do that re-engineer the lube, with one exception, and even that one is "temporary".

    UNTIL.. I get around tuit as to replacing carriage oiler lines and Bijur metering goods, I lube my carriage with Wurth HHS-K or HHS-2000 "hinge lube" - same as I use on the Jaguar's suspension joints & c.

    It leaves a molecular film of extreme-pressure slipperiness, no tackifiers to grab swarf. Didn't exist in 1936-1946 so I've no klew if it might have been used intead of Vactra #2 or not. Present-day, it gets the lube where it needs to be for my light use and also prevents corrosion.

    I did say "temporary", but have NO idea when, if ever, I'll get that "round tuit" w/r new oil lines and Bijurs, "never" being a possibility.

    I HAVE a wife... the 10EE's ain't even "girlfriends", just old lathes.



    Edit: I've read through the operation manual and even tried skimming through some threads on here for the information, but I've come up empty. Can you change the feeds/speeds on these 10EE's while the spindle is under power but the apron power feeds and/or half nuts are disengaged? Or do I have to stop the spindle every time I want to make a feedrate change? I haven't really found any information indicating that it has to be done without the spindle powered, but also haven't found anything indicating it wont hurt anything to "unlock" and change the feedrate and reengage it while the spindle is running.
    WTF?

    Stop the spindle!

    You want to make a "feedrate change" whilst in-the-cut?

    You'll need an independent variable-speed electrically-driven surface feed drive.

    Hardinge and some European and Japanese lathes have used those. I don't see the gain on a lathe that maxes 20" in the cut, possible exception large-range facing operations. EG: Attempted constant surface-feed. "Righteous" enough, but the reality is few among us EVER had it, pre-CNC, and we muddle through somehow without it.

    Stop. Manipulate by hand for crisp and clean dog & gear engagement, no damage. Long life. It only takes a couple of seconds - or fraction-of with a 4Q DC Drive commanding a halt - to come to a full stop.

    I say again: "Full stop". Literally. What on Earth would you expect to gain otherwise?

    Not as if you were going to plonk a Hurst shifter on it and go drag racing is it?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Moddage View Post
    inkedfeeds-threads-box_li.jpg

    Knob circled in red is the one I'm talking about. On the gearbox itself. The one circled in green for Left/Right hand direction seems to work perfectly fine.


    The knob on the gearbox that changes between feed and thread pulls out and rotates as you'd expect, and as I rotate the spindle by hand I can feel it click into place like the clutch (I believe a dog clutch type, unless I'm looking at the parts breakdown wrong) engages. But when you put the spindle under power the engagement is too shallow to even keep just the leadscrew rotating with no load applied by the half nuts. If I pull the knob out and hold it slightly beyond the detent pin that protrudes from the face of the speeds/feeds plate, the gearbox and leadscrew will stay engaged, at least enough to run the leadscrew with no load. It appears there is a dog clutch operated by a shift fork on the input shaft to the threading gearbox that is controlled by this knob, and something is worn or bent beyond acceptable engagement limits. I'm guessing it's the ends of the shift fork that ride inside the dog ring or whatever the engagement mechanism is. The dog clutch appears to be on parts Picture E-4, parts 24 and 32, and the shift fork mechanism seems to involve the rack and fork pieces 110-112, perhaps the fork is just loose from the rack and it's an easy fix once it's torn down. When it "pops out" there is a noise consistent with dog clutch teeth dragging/skipping, which is why I believe the failure lies within the operation of this mechanism. Hopefully its just a shift fork I can repair and isn't actually the dog clutch teeth.
    ...
    There a actually two dog clutches involved: one that switches the input to the gear train from belt drive to the end gears and a second that just engages the leadscrew to the output shaft. When you're in threading mode, does the feed-rod continue to rotate when you feel the clutch slip? If the feed-rod stops, it's the input clutch. Download US patent 2377305 for diagrams of the gearbox, figures 5 and 7 in particular. But be aware that the gearbox in the patent, as well as the parts show on the parts picture, are for the T-handle cone-gear clutch; you have the lever-type clutch.

    Parts E4-110--112 aren't involved in shifting the input clutch. The Tumbler Shift Fork [E4-147] moves the clutch gear [E4-32]. E4-145 and -146 are the rack and pinion that move the shift fork sideways. On the patent, the fork is #158, #157 is a circular rack and the pinion is #156, but the design of the actual gearbox seems to have changed from the patent.

    Use Vactra #2 for the apron and tailstock.

    Cal
    Last edited by Cal Haines; 02-14-2021 at 06:36 PM. Reason: updated how shifter works

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    The engagement by the knob circled in red is not simple. Often the knob will rotate to a point and stop, but not be fully engaged. Continue to try and rotate the knob with your left hand and simultaneously rotate the feed shaft with your right, and the gears will align and the engagement will complete.

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    Thermite:

    You want to make a "feedrate change" whilst in-the-cut?
    I never said whilst in-the-cut, in fact I mentioned specifically while the power feed and half-nuts were disengaged, which implies not power feeding a cut or threading, and since we mortals only have two hands/arms, that would be occupied while changing the feed rate, there wouldn't be manual feeding going on either. I've noticed some lathes have the capability to disengage, change a feed rate selection, and re-engage while the spindle is running but not cutting, I was merely inquiring if this is the case with the 10EE or not since the 1942 manual mentions nothing about it. It wouldn't save much time really considering it's a manual lathe at the end of the day, more of a curiosity thing I guess.

    Not as if you were going to plonk a Hurst shifter on it and go drag racing is it?
    I kind of want to put a Hurst shift knob on it now, just for fun.

    As for the potential requirement to TIG parts for repair, I'm not concerned about that at all, a friend of mine is one of if not the most proficient TIG welders I've ever seen, certified for nuclear pressure vessel construction etc. So he will be the one doing any TIG repairs needed as that's not yet a skill I've honed, nor do I presently have the equipment.



    Cal:
    Thanks for the info, much appreciated and will come in handy when I get to tearing this thing down, I had assumed Vactra #2 in the apron and tailstock was the better choice over the DTE Heavy-Medium, but wasn't certain if my thought process on that was correct or there was some reason not to run a way oil in the apron vs the originally spec'd oil. Thanks for confirming. As for the feed rod, I believe it does continue to rotate and only the leadscrew drops out, but I'm not certain, I've only messed with the threading gearbox briefly and then turned my attention to other things that needed addressed to make it more operational so I could continue further troubleshooting.



    rimcanyon:
    The knob rotates fully to the point of lining up with the detent pin and dropping back into "locked" position, and the threading gearbox attempts to engage, it just wont stay engaged unless I pull the knob out(so it clears the detent pin) and I hold pressure on it in a counter-clockwise direction to keep it engaged. I have had to play with the feed shaft with my right hand to get it to rotate fully into position as you describe during the brief testing I did of the gearbox, but once it's there it won't stay engaged, there is a faint mechanical chatter sound coming from inside the gearbox similar to if not exactly that of dog-clutch teeth lightly brushing against each other. I quickly stopped it and didn't continue to run it after it "popped out of gear" and made the chattering sound, there's clearly a mechanical issue that needs addressed and I didn't want to damage it further.


    All/Anyone:
    Small update to some progress, I managed to find some New Old Stock Struthers-Dunn relays (8BXX260) on eBay with 250VDC coils and 30A contacts, for a really fair price, so I purchased them and used them as parts donors to rebuild the RPXA-595 contactors. I also carefully drilled the pin/pole piece from the defective inductor in series with the field acceleration contact on my FWD contactor, and got lucky to find the broken section of the winding was in the very center directly next to the pole piece, so I was able to pull a couple turns out of the center with some tweezers and repair that as well. I drilled and tapped the pin for a 6-32 screw as I had lots of spares from the donor relays, and used that to reassemble and hold the contact assembly. I also opted to wrap the inductor coil in high quality 3M electrical tape vs trying to hand cut paper/cardboard isolator discs to make it look like factory, sure it's not as "nice" aesthetically, but it does the same job just fine. The donor relays had a slightly larger OD of the coil bobbins, and I had to carefully notch the top part of the bobbin to clear the mechanical interlock bar, I also noticed that the screws that hold the "L" bracket where the coil attaches were protruding through and pushing into the original coils, so I ground them flush as well. The pole pieces on the donor relay coils had a small little brass bump sticking up higher than the top surface compared to the original pole piece I had for comparison, and this wouldn't allow the contactor arms to close completely when installed in the RPXA-595 units, so I had to grind those flush as well. The movable arms on the relays also have a slightly different center-distance between the pins, so they wouldn't drop on the RPXA-595, upon closer inspection and some cleanup with a scotch-brite, I determined the contacts on the moving arms of my contactors were still in totally usable condition and opted not to modify the 8BXX260 arms to fit, but they can be modified to work in the event I do ever need one. Here are some photos of the rebuild process.

    file_000.jpgfile_006.jpgfile_013.jpgfile_017.jpgfile_018.jpg

    The astute among you(who have paid enough attention to these contactors to even notice) may have noticed that the 30A contacts and inductor coil assemblies from the donor relays are height adjustable, the little spacer blocks are no longer used, and the wire coming from the coils to the terminals on the board are on the opposite side from the original units. Thankfully the terminals which are riveted in place can still be rotated so I was able to de-solder the originals and solder the replacements in their place. I also adjusted the height of the donor contacts, and tweaked the arms as necessary(someone had already bent a couple before I got to it) so that the contacts all close so close to at the same time visually, that the difference in timing electrically would likely have to be measured in microseconds. I adjusted the mechanical interlock bar as well, someone must have messed with that before also, because it was just about non-functional and you could force both contactors to close and at least make contact on the armature connections, now when one contactor closes, the mechanical interlock just about touches the other one at its fully opened position, there is no way to close both at the same time unless you forced it so hard you break things in the process.

    The contactor board has been reinstalled in the machine and tested and it works beautifully, I finally have reverse, and a really solid repair and refurbishment of both contactors that possibly will outlive me.

    For those who are geeky and like details, the coil I removed from my contactors was very clearly re-wound at some point with modern wire and tape, and measured ~9kOhm. The donor coils measure in the range of ~22kOhm average across the 4 relays I picked up. I was surprised to see this reading so high based on the values I've read on this forum from those who have rebuilt these in the past. I tested them on my 100VDC bench supply and they barely wiggle, but at ~250VDC in the machine they pull in with a vengeance and satisfying mechanical "ca-chunk".

    More updates to follow.

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    Default Electrical Progress, VFD operating Motor-Generator, Etc.

    As for the VFD integration process, I've got the majority of that sorted out on paper(and some testing), a custom electrical enclosure built for the tailstock end since I have the space in my machine to use, and some new old stock parts to complete the installation. There will be a slight change to the original wiring in the machine to complete the process, but I've got things beta-tested and designed so I can use the original start-stop button interface to operate the original main contactor just like it always did while safely powering the VFD on/off automatically with the use of some of it's own built in PLC functionality, and one external relay. I'm approaching this integration in a manner that allows the machine to be readily and easily converted back to "proper" 3-phase power and eliminate the VFD should that scenario ever arise, while also integrating my Chinese VFD in such a way that should it decide to give up the ghost and I opt to replace it with a more expensive industry standard brand, it will be a near drop-in experience and shall function correctly without hurting the high end unit. I know some people abuse these Chinese units and hard wire them to run automatically upon power up and use input power to turn them on and off, but that's quite hard on the output stage as well as the capacitor pre-charge circuitry. My method interrupts the run enable wire before the VFD loses input power, thus keeping the output happy and healthy. I'm also integrating a line-reactor for better power factor, some transient protection, and to help mitigate the noise coming back from the VFD into the input power that will be shared with the DRO and other devices in the garage. It also helps to limit inrush current during the pre-charge phase when powering up a "cold" VFD, so in the event the pre-charge resistor fails in a dead short, the inrush current from the empty capacitors being connected will be reduced. The reactor I sourced is designed to be operated both in 3 phase and single phase installations per the manufacturers documentation, and I did the math using their specs and formulas to find a value and current capacity that suits both use cases adequately. Ended up picking up a good used unit from eBay for a fraction of new prices.

    pump-removed.jpg
    I removed the coolant pump and cleaned the nasty sludge mess that was in its home from a small leak that seems likely to have been going on for decades, I also drained and shop-vac'd out the sump of all the nasty horrors in there.

    enclosure-bench.jpg
    I built a custom electrical enclosure that will house the line-reactor and some other components out of scrap sheet I had laying around, it's partially vented and will have a cooling fan to assist the line-reactor cooling since I totally violated the dimensional clearance specs for convection cooling. It's far from my usual perfectionist ways, this one is for sure on the quick and dirty side of things, but you never see it anyway and it will do what I need.

    enclosure-mockup.jpg
    Here's the enclosure mocked up in the tailstock end, it's bolted to the base casting with three 1/4-20 screws, drilled and tapped into the casting.

    enclosure-installed.jpg
    Here's the enclosure after paint, with some wires pulled from the main contactor area using some 1/2" flex conduit taking the place of some of the original hard formed conduit, but routed differently as it ends up in the tailstock end instead of at the coolant pump, this saved me from having to drill additional holes in the thick base casting under the area where the main contactor lives.

    start-stop-shiny.jpg
    And here's a shot of the Start-Stop plate after some very fine scotch-brite was used to take off the tarnish and some of the sloppy paint splatter, I can't wait to shine up all the brass/bronze bits of this machine. I also plan on repainting the blackened sections and then clear-coating the entire piece after so the shiny bare metal never tarnishes again, not that I mind the antique/aged look of the pieces as they are currently, I just prefer the nice shiny look without the tarnish. I'm slowly realizing that I'm nearing closer to falling in the rabbit-hole of cleaning and repainting the entire machine with each passing day and little things like this... As much as I try to resist that task, I feel it's almost inevitable at this point and I may end up giving in and making the machine look like new


    I've put the wiring/finishing of the VFD install and other wiring modifications on hold temporarily, a friend of mine is shipping me a box full of flexible multi-conductor inverter-duty cables and shielded control wiring of various sizes and lengths (scraps/off-cuts he had), these will be much better(and proper) than the materials I have on hand, so there's not much point in me continuing to hook things up with what I have on hand when proper wiring will arrive soon. I'm already going to have to remove and re-run some of what I already pulled as it is, so making more work for myself instead of delaying things slightly doesn't make sense.

    Things are progressing, albeit a little slowly due to other time-suck things taking place in my life, one day at a time they say. It also probably would go faster if I wasn't such a perfectionist-overthinker, but then it probably wouldn't be as well thought out or nice in the end either so... *shrug*

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    Default Feedrate change on the fly

    The knob marked A-B-C to the far left of the knob you have circled in red allows for a quick jump in feed / speed without shutting down. Don't do it under cut. It actually shifts easier while powered up. Look at your feed speeds in relation to the ABC setting and you'll see its like a Hi Med Lo knob. Have never had an issue with this.

    Also, I used a 10HP Huanyang GT VFD for my set up, and it really doesn't need to be filtered. A direct on/off switch is fine. Its a soft start up and doesn't really suffer inrush problems. For the price I could keep a second one the shelf in case it peters out, but it seems to be working better than expected. I've used Hitachi and TECO VFD's in the past and wasn't sure about Huanyang, but I think I actually like it better. Don

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