All milled up and ready for Moglice
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  1. #1
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    The saddle is now all milled up and ready for Moglice. I would have done it this afternoon but the pot life is too short when it's warm, and it was over 80 with the cooler going full-bore. I'll have to wait for a cooler morning.

    It did align properly, about .033" gap all around after getting the height above the feedrod being used as the height reference. I need to score the V on the saddle some with a carbide burr (the side milling looks too good), check the alignment with the spindle and set that, then put the oil groove tape, plug the oil lines and I'll be ready.

    One thing, though, if someone out there has a 10EE with very little wear I'd like to get an idea of the clearance between the rear of the bed and the saddle. Mine ended up at .010 but I really had to sort of guess at it a bit. I can fudge it a bit but would need to know now which way.

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    Russ,
    If you could please explain to me (in very small words :-0) what you mean by "between the rear of the bed and the saddle"??? I'll try to get the measurement for you. Mostly I'm not sure what or where "rear of the bed" is.
    Steve

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    My 51 EE was last owned by Battel Pacific NW laboratory. In its life there during those years it was well mantained and was scraped here and there, it has a new crossfeed and compound screw.
    The current General Manager Ray Sedesky says that the personel that could do such repairs have retired. Ray runs one of my engines in one of his Harleys.
    Ray adds that surplus machines from the lab generally have wear evenly distributed on the machines due to the varied projects they do.
    One thing I discovered on the 51 when I got the 83 was the tool height is within a couple of thousandth on both machines. This is really nice to have because I can drop any tool set up into either machines quick change tool post and they are on the center line of the spindle.
    Battel PNWLs shop people must of wanted this interchange of tooling because on the 51 EE two steel plates have been attached to the the top of the compound rest where the toolpost mounts. Instead of the top of the compound being flat across the top there is a raised area where the toolpost sets. By measuring the height of these plates to the normal surface on the top of the compound a good estimate of wear of the carriage and bed, cross slide and compound wear and rescraping can be had. The plates stand about .045 high. If these plates were not added a cutting tool transfered from the 83EE to the 51EE the tool would sit .045 low.
    I like to measure the center line of the spindle to other surfaces by placing a .250 roller bearing in the chuck and use a height gage with an indicator from the inner flatway. Measure from the top of the bearing in the chuck and subtract .125. Well that works for me, I have an old Starrett height gage with a junior indicator I hang from a post near the machines that is set and locked to the center height of the machines for quick setting a tool in a holder.
    I think the tool hieght is important if you think you may want 2 or more EEs
    Don

    [This message has been edited by donie (edited 06-14-2004).]

  4. #4
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    Russ:
    Are you are needing the clearance between the cross slide casting and the rear flat way?
    My sense is if you have gotten the height of the carrige to the lead screw/ feed rod correct and teh alignment of the carrige true with the spindle that the clearance you are seeking will just be a function of the other geometric alignments. I would make the bed cross level true with a preciaion level using parallels on the outer flat way to the inner flat way. Check both ends to make sure there is no twist. Use the same level and paralells to check the ways of the cross slide. It should be level as well. If it is then you are set. If not correct and the result will yeld the clearance between teh cross slide casting adn the rear flat way. there has been some discussion in prior posts if the rear flat should touch, and i believe it should not. Your figure of .010" does not sound out of line to me.
    Cheers Ross

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    Hi Russ:
    How did you establish the correct position of the apron?
    Seems to me that so long as that's correct, and the bolt holes from the carriage to the apron all line up, you're there.
    My method of establishing the correct apron position was described in a previous post, and the carriage position just sort of fell into line from there.
    I also ended up with about 0.010" between the carriage casting and the vertical rear wall of the ways (I assume this is the clearance you're hoping to etablish)
    My method, however, was to get the apron lined up perfectly parallel to the front vertical wall of the ways with gauge blocks, and then drop the carriage down and let the aligning lip between carriage and apron determine the carriage position.
    I ended up with very good alignment between apron and leadscrew which was my primary concern.
    The perpendicularity of the cross slide movement was created by indicating in the front edge of the carriage casting before milling the Turcite to height.
    You'll need to verify the squareness of your cross slide dovetail too, and that your apron ends up in the right spot so you don't strain the leadscrew and the feedshaft.
    I'd work out everything relative to the apron position...it's tedious to clamp the apron into the right position, but it was worth the effort in my opinion.
    Cheers

    Marcus

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    All,

    The height of the saddle is set by measuring the distance from the top of the apron to the hole the power feed passes through the apron and worm (6.375" if my memory isn't gone), then establishing the same distance from the bollom right corner of the apron to the power feed rod mounted between the gearbox and tail support (quite rigid mounting at the tail). I can get this to .001" or so with a good light by setting up a master on a surface plate and vertical height guage. The idea for using this as the reference came from Daryl and Tim in D and I owe them thanks and a beer.

    Once the height of the right corner is established I can adjust the level of all corners and have the original height of the saddle (minus the grinding, of course) and expect that the vertical alignment of the apron will be correct, so my question relates to the horizontal alignment. My thoughts are:

    1) it doesn't matter too much as I can shift the apron fore and aft a bit on the mounts.

    and

    2) I may as well establish the saddle within a couple of thousadths while I'm getting ready to put the Moglice under it.

    The reference I used for milling was the part of the saddle that overhangs the bed on the rear of the lathe. There's some smallish clearance between the saddle and the rear of the bed that I expect is pretty standard on the 10EE, and matching this would put the bolt holes in the saddle at the 'proper' distance from the front of the lathe and give the other reference for the apron.

    The whole saddle is mounted on jackscrews that are in blocks mounted in the wiper blade holder holes on the saddle. The rear mounts have 1 screw each, the front 3 with one handling elevation and the others bearing on the bed V and controlling horizontal position and the perpendicular alignment of the cross slide to the spindle. Here's an image:




    [This message has been edited by rke[pler (edited 06-14-2004).]

  7. #7
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    Geez, Russ you're really clipping along. I still haven't got the headstock aligned yet, but been sick and busy. Not much time for the ole EE.

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    I seem to get more done in the shop when I'm busier elsewhere. Rightnow I'm working 50-60 hours per week in consulting and looking for a fulltime job to get out of the consulting ratrace, so I'm plenty motivated in the shop. Once the Moglice is done I'll be able to remount everything except the tailstock - it still needs resetting but it's the last major component that needs work (well, there's the slide in the taper, but I may continue putting that one off for a while)

    I can't wait for the first cut...

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    Well, I checked the alignment between the threading dial and the leadscrew and it seems ok, so I'm going with the setup as I have it. Here it is all glued up:



    I had to wait for a weekend morning to do it as that's the only time I could have the shop cool enough to have a good pot life. As it was it was getting a bit stiff as it went on. I think there's some bronze or something in the Moglice as well, it felt 'gritty' as it went on.

    You can see some oozed out - I used all 100 grams and the calculations I did suggested that 65 grams would be enough. Better too much and some oozing than air pockets after it's set up - there's no fixing holes with this stuff.

    I've shut down the cooler so the shop should get warm enough to cure it today. I'll try to jack it off with the adjustment screws tomorrow night. I just hope it comes off and that I can find my original oil holes...

  10. #10
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    How do you keep the moglice from sticking to the bed and how long does the moglice take to fully cure?
    Don

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    There's a spray-on release agent that *should* release it after it's hardened. I sprayed a couple of coats and buffed it lightly. The spray is over a matrix of fine line tape to provide oil grooves for the ways. Here's a slightly out of focus image:



    The Moglice cures like any epoxy so the cure rate is dependent on temperature. The shop is now about 80 degF and the Moglice seems pretty much cured - I could hardly dent it with my thumbnail. Still, I'll give it until tomorrow night to set fully before I tighten the jackscrews and see if it comes loose. If it doesn't I'll put jack it off one of the cross members on the bed.

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    In case anyone was wondering the Moglice released just fine. I used the jackscrews - simply tightening them a bit. The front right one felt like it was stripping and gave me a scare, but it turned out to be Moglice on the screw, and turning the rear one down a little bit brake the back loose with a sloght 'pop'. The spare Moglice was cut loose with a Dremel and a 3" fiber reinforced cutting disk, some of the rear needed to be grooved and broken off (dangerous, that) with a small cutting disc.

    The surface came out perfect except for a small spot near the the oil line on the back of the V - I don't think I got enough Moglice there when buttering it up for fear of messing up the wax plug in the oil line. I checked with Devitt and they thought that my plan to plug it with a bit of epoxy (3M 2216, an epoxy that sticks to most anything) just fine. The 1/8" find line tape was just right for the oil grooves, and peeled out with the tip of a razor knife very easily.

    After noticing that the saddle was hard to get moving I gently scraped it to get towards the 60% bearing suggested by Devitt, this to help it get up on oil faster. I'll likely have to do a bit more as it's better. but still not there. I did check the original reason I decided to grind the bed - I put an indicator on the front underside of the bed (where the ball bearing gib runs) and ran the saddle back and forth - about .0003" change in the indicator reading. I'll take a razor knife under there and see if there's still something stuck as it feels dirty, but that's a whole lot better than the .006" or so I saw before.

    I also cleaned out the oil lines and attempted to put in some new copper. That's not going to be a lot of fun - particularly the feed line from the front and the V feed line. Sometime this weekend with much swearing it'll be done, I'm sure.

  13. #13
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    Out standing Russ, Thanks for posting this great info!
    Don

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    Congratulations, Russ!

    Another milestone!

    Jess

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    Good job Russ!!!
    I'm still debugging the drive on mine. After setting the headstock, I hooked up the power and let some smoke out of a couple of components. What is fine line tape? Is it the stuff you would make a circuit board layout with??
    Tim

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    I used 3M 'fine line' masking tape. It was 1/8" wide and about .005" thick. The tape is only there to provide a bit of relief for the oil, I was told by Devitt that .010" is needed for this application so I doubled it up (quad over the areas lapped). I think they suggested pinstripe tape as it has a smooth surface and comes in various widths and has the added benefit of being closer to .010" think.

    Let me know what you let the smoke out of - I may have some spares for the drive that would work.

  17. #17
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    Can I ask just one question... Why not way Material ( i.e. Turcite, Rulon 142, ect... ). Easier to install and better wear factors.

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    The reason I will use this method as well as Russ, is that way material is not accurate just because you put it on. That is, to use it(Turcite) must be scraped to alignment, like the cast iron underneath it. Done any precison alignment scraping lately? Even if the ways have been accurately ground, in which they should be with either of these techniques,the mating part(carriage)has to be aligned with the ways and the rest of the machine. Moglice on the other hand, you align the parts ACCURATELY with jigs, pour on the Moglice, it hardens without changing the dimensions, scrape alittle for oil retention and your done.

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    I agree with Daryl.
    I've been researching this topic for a while now and I'm not convinced that Rulon or Turcite wear any better than Moglice and as for ease of installation - I prefer Moglice's "jig - pour and flake" over the "scrape - fit - scrape - fit" cycles of the the other two.
    Just my 2c YMMV,
    Steve

    [This message has been edited by andromeda (edited 07-25-2004).]

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    I'm *really* happy with the way it turned out. I'm sure that if I had a couple of years of experience with scraping in saddles that I would have gotten a good fit - but it's hard to imagine that I would have gotten as good a fit as I have. I just don't see that I could have gotten it done in anything near the same time.

    Now, Moglice obviously won't work against a worn bed, and I suspect that there might be issues using it on a newly scraped bed. But for fitting something like a saddle on a newly ground bed it's about perfect for someone like me, even with the investment in time to make the jigs. One fellow on the board here mentioned that the machine tool manufacturer he worked for used it for all the fitting as it was considerably cheaper than any scraping alternatives.

    I did put Multifil (sheet stuff similar to Turcite) on the cross slide. I haven't posted much on that as I consider it an ongoing project. I have one dovetail to do and I'll scrape in the dovetail and the gib, but the base is already scraped into the newly ground saddle cross slide ways. The Multifil (a Glacier Garlock material) and Turcite that I've played with seem considerably softer than the Moglice.


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