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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by rke[pler View Post
    Swap the tubes and see if the problem follows the tube.
    Go back and read post #1 again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post
    Go back and read post #1 again.
    Sorry, must have gotten lost in all the parenthetic comments.

    If the OP feels comfortable working a VOM I can provide a schematic with test voltages. Likely there's something gone wrong with the RC that provides the triggers to the thyratrons. But it's fairly dangerous in there and measuring voltages where some are 600VAC can be dangerous.

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    Iíve been measuring around and places Iím not comfortable putting my hands in with dvm leads I tape insulated sticks to the leads to be sure I donít become the next path for electricity. Ha. Iíd be happy to see the schematic and tests!!!!

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    Thank you all again

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    Quote Originally Posted by rke[pler View Post
    Swap the tubes and see if the problem follows the tube.
    First post said he swapped the tubes and the problem stayed on the same side.

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    Ok so I have received a schematic for works in a drawer and best of my knowledge everything is working correctly up to the spindle motor. I get to the dc control panel and measure voltages at contacts and one leg is steady and one is floating. I ohmed across my brushes on spindle motor and one set is steady and other set are floating. My brush packs are worn and spindle armature has one half of commutator that looks decent and other half is rough and shows a lot more burn marks than good side. I assume this is more than likely the problem I plan to true commutator and install new brushes and give it a shot!! My question is where what and how do I find where to buy these????

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grandquads View Post
    Ok so I have received a schematic for works in a drawer and best of my knowledge everything is working correctly up to the spindle motor. I get to the dc control panel and measure voltages at contacts and one leg is steady and one is floating. I ohmed across my brushes on spindle motor and one set is steady and other set are floating. My brush packs are worn and spindle armature has one half of commutator that looks decent and other half is rough and shows a lot more burn marks than good side. I assume this is more than likely the problem I plan to true commutator and install new brushes and give it a shot!! My question is where what and how do I find where to buy these????
    Look for a cracked "timing" plate / brush-carrier, and/or bent brush-holders if the pattern is that uneven.

    Monarch Lathe stocks the correct brushes. Call or email for a current price.

    My most-recent set were made by Helwig Carbon, BUT.... not to a spec Helwig list on their own "catalog" website for direct sale.

    My "bet" is that Monarch order them special-made to the proper no longer-common spec, probably periodically in batches as may have a long lead-time.

    I can't as easily doo that, so I just buy from Monarch.

    Price was OK.

    MOST of their pricing is OK, if only yah remember Ohioans don't work for 1939 hourly wages, taxes, energy, or any OTHER costs, current year.

    Support yer local Sheriff, etc.

  9. #28
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    Well after locating a set of brushes and removing the motor to disassemble, ( I marked timing plate) I was able to install new brushes and fix some things in the gearbox as well. Sadly my problem is exactly how it was to start with so at least I have new bearings in motor and gearbox was able to fix my hard shifting (high to low) issues, but still unusable at this point. I will continue to test and chase until I figure what it is and let everyone know. On a side note some of my redneck tendencies came out today when I was going to turn the commutator! I really didn’t want to drive 30 mins to use another lathe so I rigged a 1/2 angle drill to the spindle of my 10ee ( socket on spindle nut at belt side , hose clamped handle to a make shift bar I bolted to machine , a bungee cord to keep tension towards socket, and a zip tie for speed control) I was able to use my lathe to fix my lathe so to speak. Ha ha it was funny to me the things we do when we are desperate or in my case lazy!!!!

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    I forgot to add when I ohm across the brushes I’m consistent and as I turn shaft my readings are with in 5 ohm the whole revolution. So at least that’s fixed too

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    Go through the voltage readings as recommended by Monarch. They were written in the manual and the inside of my machine on the doors, you can see it at https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...w0WTsSMctumh6A on page 17.

    You have a different machine, so I would assume there is a separate drawing for this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grandquads View Post
    Well after locating a set of brushes and removing the motor to disassemble, ( I marked timing plate) I was able to install new brushes and fix some things in the gearbox as well. Sadly my problem is exactly how it was to start with so at least I have new bearings in motor and gearbox was able to fix my hard shifting (high to low) issues, but still unusable at this point. I will continue to test and chase until I figure what it is and let everyone know. On a side note some of my redneck tendencies came out today when I was going to turn the commutator! I really didnít want to drive 30 mins to use another lathe so I rigged a 1/2 angle drill to the spindle of my 10ee ( socket on spindle nut at belt side , hose clamped handle to a make shift bar I bolted to machine , a bungee cord to keep tension towards socket, and a zip tie for speed control) I was able to use my lathe to fix my lathe so to speak. Ha ha it was funny to me the things we do when we are desperate or in my case lazy!!!!
    Guess I'm OVERLY used to pulling 10EE motors and putting them back-in?

    I'm too stove-up to even THINK about doing any of that with the motor in-place where it could be belted and back-driven off the spindle.

    Surely you had it OUT to deal with the bearings?

    I'd bolt 'em to a hunk of ply or 2 by 12, and use one of the many other motors here to "make turns", belted. Or lovejoyed if the gearbox is pulled-off.

    Anyway, that part is done.

    You still seem to have a malfunctioning trigger-circuit, ONE side of yer Thyratrons, yah?

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    Yes motor was out and I have had this large since 96 and when I pulling the motor I noticed a very worn cardboard box smashed up under the leveling plate (motor mount) and inside was spare brushes motor bearings and gearbox bearings ( lucky me) I assume what your saying with trigger circuit is correct being I was just probing around with a volt meter in dc volts I was just goofing around and I put one lead at +thy tube wire and at bottom right (rear) fuse in panel and every went to working great I can put the test lead on with + thy tube wire and all is good I have tried to use the wiring schematic to test and back track both the fused circuit and the tube circuits although I can’t seem to find anything all resistors seem to be ohming correct the only question I have is could the capacitors be tired I measure them with uf and ohms and they seem to be with in spec I wish I knew how to post videos of this as I have some from what it’s doing and with the volt meter acting as an addition circuit when it works correctly

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grandquads View Post
    Yes motor was out and I have had this large since 96 and when I pulling the motor I noticed a very worn cardboard box smashed up under the leveling plate (motor mount) and inside was spare brushes motor bearings and gearbox bearings ( lucky me) I assume what your saying with trigger circuit is correct being I was just probing around with a volt meter in dc volts I was just goofing around and I put one lead at +thy tube wire and at bottom right (rear) fuse in panel and every went to working great I can put the test lead on with + thy tube wire and all is good I have tried to use the wiring schematic to test and back track both the fused circuit and the tube circuits although I canít seem to find anything all resistors seem to be ohming correct the only question I have is could the capacitors be tired I measure them with uf and ohms and they seem to be with in spec I wish I knew how to post videos of this as I have some from what itís doing and with the volt meter acting as an addition circuit when it works correctly
    You saying that the mere presence of the VOM's leads caused the whole shebang to go to back to its assigned work?

    That doesn't seem to be tired caps.

    It is more likely an intermittent wiring termination.

    Best to not mess with "wiggling" such goods with the Voltages present or adjacent.

    Just renew them, end-to-end on general principle with decent-grade machine-tool wire and the same type of terminals or other means of termination as FIT the OEM situation. Cheap, not complicated. And only modestly tedious.

    Done is done, and one less thing to puzzle over, going forward.

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    I have done the wiggle test multiple times (with an insulated stick ) no change I done this with machine running I’ve ohmed most every wire end to end with nothing sticking out to me to say it’s a problem all check 0-1 ohms (that I’m able to get to) I believe the amount of bleed through from the meter caused it to work correctly as my meter has a resistance of 400mega ohms in dc reading position (checked by another meter) so I got out my old RadioShack box and was able to put together 325 mega ohms of resistance and when I use power from the 3 amp fuse to the +thyr tube leg (either side) if fires and works great. Something other than a loose wire is at fault I believe. I will continue to look and hopefully come across something f-d up

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grandquads View Post
    I have done the wiggle test multiple times (with an insulated stick ) no change I done this with machine running I’ve ohmed most every wire end to end with nothing sticking out to me to say it’s a problem all check 0-1 ohms (that I’m able to get to) I believe the amount of bleed through from the meter caused it to work correctly as my meter has a resistance of 400mega ohms in dc reading position (checked by another meter) so I got out my old RadioShack box and was able to put together 325 mega ohms of resistance and when I use power from the 3 amp fuse to the +thyr tube leg (either side) if fires and works great. Something other than a loose wire is at fault I believe. I will continue to look and hopefully come across something f-d up
    Well. "it fires" but... does it really "work great"?

    EG: Fire on every incoming line pulse and "right way" regardless of what power/RPM was requested by the control settings?

    Probably so.

    My SWAG is that you have "found a source you can trigger with", but that it is NOT the controlled and controlling source needed for dynamic range operation that responds to operator control input.

    That might not be a great deal more useful than tying a riding lawnmower to a Peterbilt, hanging on for dear life as he hits full-gallop on the Interstate... and then .....pulling out to try and pass the bugger!


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    Quote Originally Posted by Grandquads View Post
    I have done the wiggle test multiple times (with an insulated stick ) no change I done this with machine running Iíve ohmed most every wire end to end with nothing sticking out to me to say itís a problem all check 0-1 ohms (that Iím able to get to) I believe the amount of bleed through from the meter caused it to work correctly as my meter has a resistance of 400mega ohms in dc reading position (checked by another meter) so I got out my old RadioShack box and was able to put together 325 mega ohms of resistance and when I use power from the 3 amp fuse to the +thyr tube leg (either side) if fires and works great. Something other than a loose wire is at fault I believe. I will continue to look and hopefully come across something f-d up
    +thyr tube leg (either side) if fires and works great.

    I am not sure what your calling the "+thyr tube leg" is.
    There are 2 filament leads (the large ones) and the grid lead (the small lead).

    If you have a bad connection or bad tube can cause the problem you have. The 2 tubes in question are the 6H6 and the 6N7.

    The 6N7 has 2 filaments in parallel, one side may be burned out. You should see 2 red spots, one inside each cathode. If one is burned out, probably would give you the problem you have. This makes sense because it stopped working after having power on for a long time and not in use.

    The 3 amp fuses are in the plate circuit for the field power. Probably a source of high voltage to tickle the grid lead of a C16J to make it glow.

    Bill

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    The c16 tubes are what I’m hooking +side to meter and 3amp fuse the smaller tubes below the big ones appear to be working fine I still tried swapping them and some point and problem stayed the same and on same side the center lower tube lights as it always had and even still I swapped in a known good used tube with no luck

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grandquads View Post
    The c16 tubes are what I’m hooking +side to meter and 3amp fuse the smaller tubes below the big ones appear to be working fine I still tried swapping them and some point and problem stayed the same and on same side the center lower tube lights as it always had and even still I swapped in a known good used tube with no luck
    "Luck" in electronics comes off the back of doing whatever is needed to put a circuit back to rights. "By accident and maybe NEVER" if you have forever-time to waste. "By the book" - schematics and bill of material - if you want a more predictably favourable outcome, and sooner, rather than never.

    The big Thyratrons are the only expensive / hard to source components with less than indefinite service lives. Solid-state workalikes are affordable.

    All the REST is sparse, actually. There just isn't much THERE, nor very expensive.

    It won't get fixed by guessing and discussing the lost dice-rolls.

    Make a plan. Go though it ALL. Methodically. "Luck" generally follows.

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    I could just gut it and start over for sure as so many before us have and probably be more reliable and durable and whatever else comes with a conversion but I think I will continue to smash my head into a wall while I try to figure something out then at least for me I will know why only time and effort right !!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grandquads View Post
    I could just gut it and start over for sure as so many before us have and probably be more reliable and durable and whatever else comes with a conversion but I think I will continue to smash my head into a wall while I try to figure something out then at least for me I will know why only time and effort right !!!!
    Not so fast!.

    First-off, it is SIMPLER than that. Your existing "3-D" rig is the master pattern.

    All you need to do is USE it to replace EXACTLY ONE wire or ONE component at a time. Not two. Not a bundle. Too easy to get stuff WRONG.

    ANY "bulk" approach requires superb documentation.

    Monarch may have HAD that for their production wire folks or to make-up "harnesses".

    We do not have it handy NOW.

    Take yer time. Be patient. Be THOROUGH. There really is not much "there", total component count, total wire runs, total terminations.

    Mind, I may be a tad biased coming off an old "space division" era TELCO background where thousands of MILES of wire might be under a single large Central Office roof!

    But still.. a cheap 1940's AC/DC series-filament vacuum-tube table-radio was/is waaay more complex, and humans built those and fixed them every day.

    A(ny) 10EE's electronics are not hard to manage between your hands.. unless you MAKE them hard between your ears.



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