Another Monarch 10EE drive issue. Really need some help!
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  1. #1
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    Default Another Monarch 10EE drive issue. Really need some help!

    Hi,
    I just acquired a 1966 10EE in great shape. It was under power when I looked at it. It ran great...very quiet through all the speeds. One thing I did not try was back gear because I forgot to!!
    Anyway, got it home (had professional equipment riggers move it). I was there for the whole move, however I did not remove the tubes which I learned is a good idea. Hooked the lathe up and turned it on. proper warmup, hit the on button and heard the reassuring relay kick in. Ran the speed up and uh oh...not sounding great! very growly and could only get up to about 600 or so RPM. checked my wiring and tried again and same thing. I also noticed that the solenoid that allows the lathe to be put into back gear is not pulling in. That problem may have existed before the move because I didn't try it.
    So...any help to give me a starting point to begin trouble shooting would be very much appreciated.
    Thanks...Kevin

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    Forgive my asking, but do you know anything about electronics? Are you able to follow a wiring diagram?
    If not, I think you should find an electrician, or at least an amateur with some practical fault finding experience and a voltmeter. I suppose you can find the relevant wiring and circuit diagrams on the proper PM forum.

    Between you the problem should not be difficult to solve. Before all this, you could try to loosen and put back all tubes, they may have been knocked loose. Also check the fuses (if any, I know nothing about EEs).
    Best wishes, I can feel my fingers itching but NYis a bit far from here.
    Regards, fusker

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    I'm not much help on this, but it almost sounds like it is in back gear right now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by daryl bane View Post
    I'm not much help on this, but it almost sounds like it is in back gear right now.
    +1 Surely seems so. 1966 wudda been, wot? 4,000 RPM top in 'direct'? Reduction gearbox is wot 5:1 or so?

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    So it's not in back gear, removed the rear cover and checked the AP solenoid... Not working. I can put it into back gear by manually pushing the pin in and selecting back gear. Called Monarch and spoke with tech support, unbelievably helpful! They think one of the tubes was likely damaged during transport. I'm sending them the tubes tomorrow and they will check them. I do have a question on the Monarch collet closer... I'm familiar with the Hardinge closer but this one is a bit different. Is there some sort of spanner nut that's supposed to be threaded on the end of the tube? All I have on the end is a snap ring, a spacer and threads.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ktbceres View Post
    I do have a question on the Monarch collet closer... I'm familiar with the Hardinge closer but this one is a bit different. Is there some sort of spanner nut that's supposed to be threaded on the end of the tube? All I have on the end is a snap ring, a spacer and threads.
    Fotos? Or at least WHICH "collet closer" (and system) you have?

    I have five different collet families, several with more than one type of closer, and that covers only the more common ones a 10EE might harbour.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by ktbceres View Post
    So it's not in back gear, removed the rear cover and checked the AP solenoid... Not working. I can put it into back gear by manually pushing the pin in and selecting back gear. Called Monarch and spoke with tech support, unbelievably helpful! They think one of the tubes was likely damaged during transport. I'm sending them the tubes tomorrow and they will check them. I do have a question on the Monarch collet closer... I'm familiar with the Hardinge closer but this one is a bit different. Is there some sort of spanner nut that's supposed to be threaded on the end of the tube? All I have on the end is a snap ring, a spacer and threads.
    If you do not know how to pack the tubes, there is a high probability of them being damaged in shipment. These industrial tubes are more rugged than some others but they are still vulnerable to damage. The tungsten filaments become more brittle with use so the packing that is sufficient for new tubes may not be for a used one. Most people respond that they pack them very carefully, wrapping them in bubble wrap and filling the space around it with peanuts. Because of the large surface area supported by the packing and the light weight of the tube, that is almost valueless. I use non woven fabric such as is used in pillows, the softest grade I can find, and wrap several inches around the tube in all directions, folding it around the ends so the tube cannot slide out of the padding.

    As to whether the tubes are working, see if they are both glowing blue when running. The glow should be about the same in both. If not, one isn't working, which may be for various reasons including a bad tube.

    Bill

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    Thanks...I will upload some photos.

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    Thanks for the shipping advice, it makes total sense! when I fire the lathe up, the small center tube lights up normally. The tube on the left lights but flickers a bit. The right tube never lights. Monarch tech says its possible that the tube that lights can actually be bad and causing the other to not light up. I hope to get answers from Monarch after they receive the tubes. My plan is to avoid swapping in a VFD. This thing ran perfectly before the move so I'm sure its fixable! The Monarch tech also told me that I should look for broken wires going up to the AP solenoid as more often than not that is the culprit. That will be this evenings job.

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    Thanks, so to answer your question, I can read schematics and can dig into the electronics with confidence. I'm not quite sure of all the theory behind the technology used in this lathe so I will certainly seek help before I burn up non replaceable components! I did remove the tubes and re-install them and checked all the fuses. I checked the incoming power which was 244VAC single phase. This particular lathe can be run on single phase because I do not have a coolant pump which is the only thing that requires 3 phase for this vintage 10ee. I went back to the site where the lathe came from and it was wired to a 208 buss duct system. I checked the voltage and it was right at 208VAC. Its an old IBM facility. I moved the taps on the transformers to the ones that are closer to 244 as suggested by Monarch but it had no effect.

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    I would swap the tubes left to right and see if the symptom stays with the tube (switching sides) or with the position (left or right).
    Mark the tubes in some way (tape or marker) before changing them. It is not uncommon to put them back in the same position and think that they were changed.

    Bill

    P.S. Also something to try if the problem stays with the position, is to try running with the module removed (assuming yours is a modular drive).

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    Something else to look into would be the diodes in the module. There are a bunch in the black box and a known fail is for them to lose contact with the spring clips that hold them. It is also known that the individual devices lose contact to the crimped on end caps of their cases. They look similar to fuses.

    Anyway, look them over and clean up any oxidation and make sure the endcaps are still tightly crimped to the diode wires.

    Tim in D

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim in D View Post
    Something else to look into would be the diodes in the module. There are a bunch in the black box and a known fail is for them to lose contact with the spring clips that hold them. It is also known that the individual devices lose contact to the crimped on end caps of their cases. They look similar to fuses.

    Anyway, look them over and clean up any oxidation and make sure the endcaps are still tightly crimped to the diode wires.

    Tim in D
    I had a problem with these diodes from an unexpected source. The motor field needs to stay on when the spindle is switched off to make the dynamic braking work. The timer for that failed on, leaving field voltage on all the time with no air circulation. The lathe is in a fairly large shop with anyone using the lathe, so it is hard to enforce rules like turning the power off after they are done. Leaving it on overnight apparently heated the diodes enough to make a couple fail. Fortunately, I had replacements and replaced the timer. There are two of these timers, the other for tube warmup time. If you have a failure, don't spend the the money for another. They are mechanical and failure prone. I changed both to modern electronic ones.

    Bill

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    10ee-1.jpg10ee-collet-closer-1.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by ktbceres View Post
    10ee-1.jpg
    Module drive. Do the Diodes on gen'ral principle. Info on PM.
    10ee-collet-closer-1.jpg
    Drawtube, rear-lever actuated closer. No help here. I have... just about everything EXCEPT any form of drawtube closer.

    Covered in the PM annals, though, and more than once.


    Bill

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    So got the word from Monarch that one of the large tubes is bad. Getting a new used one. Does anyone know if the 10ee can handle an 8" 4 jaw? I did not get a 4 jaw with the lathe

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    I have both, a 8" Cushman 3 jaw and a 4 jaw with built in D1-3 mts. No problem with either although don't use them very much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ktbceres View Post
    So got the word from Monarch that one of the large tubes is bad. Getting a new used one. Does anyone know if the 10ee can handle an 8" 4 jaw? I did not get a 4 jaw with the lathe
    It can, but have a care w/r RPM.

    Most of today's readily available/affordable 8" are either rated rather low. or not rated at all. 'Veteran' once-greats, you've scant sight of the history or possible past abuse of, so they 'may' have internal / incipient cracks.

    One or more collet systems, one or more 6" 4-J, one 8" 4-J for the odd projects, mebbe a 6" 6-J, and you should be golden.

    Faceplates still have their place as well. All sorts of ways to sub-plate & fixture those.

    Bill

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    "Does anyone know if the 10ee can handle an 8" 4 jaw?"

    A standard 4-jaw for the 10EE was a forged steel 8" Cushman.

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    Standard 10EE workholding (more or less):

    1) forged 5C collet nosepiece (4,000 RPM),

    2) forged 2J Hardinge-Sjogren "Speed Chuck" with smaller than normal handwheel (4,000 RPM),

    3) forged 6" Cushman 3-jaw with two sets of jaws (inner and outer) (probably 4,000 RPM),

    4) forged 6" Cushman 3-jaw with reversible jaw tops (rare, probably 4,000 RPM),

    5) forged 8" Cushman 4-jaw,

    6) small cast dog drive plate,

    7) large cast faceplate (1,000 RPM).

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