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another monarch 10ee hookup

daniel call

Plastic
Joined
Jul 30, 2019
got a new to me monarch 10ee lathe and am trying to hook it up. i only have 230v single phase and am wondering if i can use this transformer? the machine is wired for 440v 3 phase according to the motor. the transformer is a 9t75f that is used for 480 3 phase to 240v 3 phase. wondering if i can use a 3 phase converter like i use on my mill and power the transformer backward to make 440v 3 phase? this site wont let me upload the big files for it, but you can find them at 9T75F - TRANSFORMER DRY 3PH 9KVA 480V-240V | Schneider Electric and https://download.schneider-electric...File_Name=7400CT9601.pdf&p_Doc_Ref=7400CT9601 number 6 on page 17 is the wiring setup for the transformer. there are hookups at the end of pdf that might work. or should i just get a rotary and run it off the 230v to make the 440v? thanks for the help.
 

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ok, i understand as i have read MANY posts on this. the monarch has a 6-1949 nameplate on it. it does NOT have any vacuum tubes. the motor plates says 32350 as manufacturers number. it has a 4000 rpm tach. the maintanance instuction plate says 220 440 v 3 phase 60hz 115v exitation voltage . motor serial no. s8418t24 unit serial number 19542v46 and ee32350. i pulled the motor generator unit and it has wiring plate for 220 or 440v 3 phase. my other option may be to get a 220v to 220v 3 phase converter or rotary like i have on my lagun mill and convert the motor to 220v 3 phase. my only problem is i see they have the 9 wires involved, but there are 3 sets of 2 wires tied to each other coming out of the motor i dont understand. S7150071.jpgS7110058.jpg i saw this machine ran on 440v 3 phase when i went to pick it up. everything worked fine except no reverse, which i can see the relays need smoothed out again, very rough contacts. was so quiet you could hardly hear it. has a taper atachment, steady rest, a thread option, came with a hundred 2c collets and a few heads and faceplates and a bunch of quick change tooling. not perfect, but will work fine for me. has a hughes aircraft marking as well.S7110039.jpg
 
... the monarch has a 6-1949 nameplate on it. it does NOT have any vacuum tubes. the motor plates says 32350 as manufacturers number. it has a 4000 rpm tach. the maintanance instuction plate says 220 440 v 3 phase 60hz 115v exitation voltage . motor serial no. s8418t24 unit serial number 19542v46 and ee32350. i pulled the motor generator unit and it has wiring plate for 220 or 440v 3 phase. my other option may be to get a 220v to 220v 3 phase converter or rotary like i have on my lagun mill and convert the motor to 220v 3 phase. my only problem is i see they have the 9 wires involved, but there are 3 sets of 2 wires tied to each other coming out of the motor i dont understand....

View attachment 262330

i saw this machine ran on 440v 3 phase when i went to pick it up. everything worked fine except no reverse, which i can see the relays need smoothed out again, very rough contacts. was so quiet you could hardly hear it. has a taper atachment, steady rest, a thread option, came with a hundred 2c collets and a few heads and faceplates and a bunch of quick change tooling. not perfect, but will work fine for me. has a hughes aircraft marking as well. ...
Are they maybe 5C collets, not 2C?

If your existing rotary phase converter is large enough you can share it with the 10EE. What size is it?

The three pairs of wires tied together is normal for a nine-wire motor connected for it's higher voltage option. This thread will walk you through everything that you need to do to convert a motor/generator 10EE to 220 VAC:


The problem with the machine not having reverse may be an issue with the coil on the reverse contactor. That's not a show stopper. Be aware that your DC control panel has a problem with one of the big resistors in the upper right corner burning out causing the machine to cycle on and off when you try to run it above the lowest speed.

Cal
 
Are they maybe 5C collets, not 2C?


I'll bet he meant 2J, very common with the 10EE.

looks like you got a fine machine there. FWIW, I had nothing but trouble maintaining my 10EE with an MG set like yours. Lots of help here on this board, but the joke about needing to hire a EE to maintain the 10EE is true. I gave up and installed a 3 phase spindle drive motor with VFD - love the upgrade.
 
sorry, 2j collets, it was late! thanks for the link! i have a static phase a matic on the mill. works ok, until you really load it at high rpm. thanks for the tip on the resistors, i took the machine apart and made wiring diagrams, but that panel gets confusing, lots of wires!
 
I'll bet he meant 2J, very common with the 10EE.

looks like you got a fine machine there. FWIW, I had nothing but trouble maintaining my 10EE with an MG set like yours. Lots of help here on this board, but the joke about needing to hire a EE to maintain the 10EE is true. I gave up and installed a 3 phase spindle drive motor with VFD - love the upgrade.

I maintain an MG 10EE and a Modular, both in a job shop, used daily. Neither has given much trouble in the at least ten years I have serviced them, but the MG is more reliable. Once in a while, a brush sticks and needs a wiggle, but that is about it. It is mostly a matter of getting things right in the first place.

Bill
 
On changing something in the drive ..
an AC brushless servo drive is vastly, and I mean vastly, better than anything else.
AC servo == 5x better than anything else, per power in HP.

--
Conclusion here:
AC servo drive 2.5 kW == better than a 12 kW VFD+3 phase motor.
IME.
Not opinion, experience.

I never ever thought huge torque and steady speed would be so important.
I got the servo for C axis, basically.

The torque benefit was a total surprise for me.
I never, ever, thought I needed more torque or better more stable spindle speed.
My drive and spindle were very good, pre servo, imo, ime.

--
AC servo is expensive vs cheap 3 phase, but very much cheaper than dc / replacement stuff.

My lathe got a 2.5 kW (cont) AC servo of 220 V (50 HZ, EU), at 1:3 belt drive via HTD 8-30.
Vs original 1.5 kW induction motor, 220V, industrial.

The AC servo delivers 90 Nm of torque 0-1000 rpm, sub ms stop on errors, crashes, or overloads.
For comparison a HAAS ST10 delivers 102 Nm peak 1200 rpm, less overall, much less at 10 rpm.

Idk, but the HAAS10 might have 10 Nm at 10 rpm, from 12 kW.
Typical for 3 phase motors and VFDs, somewhere around that.

Mine gets 90 Nm at 1 rpm, 30 Nm continuous forever, 0.1 ms reaction update, 0.03 ms stability / position update (30 kHz), perfect stable speeds with interrupted cuts (takes less than 0.1 mm (0.05 mm ) at edge of 150 mm steel workpiece to regain speed in an interrupted cut).
(12 kHz servo update rate, == 0.1 ms reaction time to whatever power/torque is needed, 30 kHz loop).

Essentially the servo drive delivers perfect power, torque, finish, at all rpm 0-1000.
And has similar performance to a 12.5 kW Haas turning center, in real-world use.

But very much better in stability, reaction, and VASTLY better safety in crashes.
Stuff bends but does not break because the servo faults so fast.
My servo costs about 2000€ for 2.5 kW, 22% VAT included EU.
A 4 kW AC servo might be 800€ more.

I got about 7x metal removal rate, vs results before, with exceptional finish.
3.5 mm DOC, 700 rpm, fast feed, ISO30 face mill, tool steel billet on very heavy fixture.
Cutting about 45 mm width (face mill 50 mm).

--
Note the servo drive needs a substantial mount and proper belts.
My motor mount == 50 kg in mass, 20 mm thick steel plates, 30x30 mm standoffs.
A 12 kg 4-jaw chuck of 10", 1000 rpm, workpieces 10-40 kg, has huge inertia.
Peak loads in a crash or estop or fast stop (vs halt) are easily 80 kW == 110 Hp in power for many ms, maybe 15 ms.
The servo drive dumps it into the grid, no problem in the EU at 220V single phase.
-
Should measure the time, energy dumped, and stop duration, actually, for curiosity.
-

The servo estops around 1 ms, 2 mm of error on diameter of 100 mm D, 120 counts, 1.5 degrees more or less angular on the C.
Tunable, to whatever one wants.

Within 1 ms the x and z axis and workpieces do not get damaged under catastrophic loads.
Or the TS overloading, I stalled the spindle 3-4 times with very large (25 mm D) drills in steel.

And 2-3 crashes on x due to interference, my error, mostly via MPG or jog.


--
My new VMC has a 2.2 kW 3-phase motor, now, due to economics.
Soonish, it will go to an AC servo.
I did not have the extra 3k€ to spare vs 109€ for 3-phase.
--

My point is that new AC servos are vastly, vastly, better than anything else if you are already considering 3-4-6000$ spends.
And cheaper.
And deliver about 2-4x the "power" because they have so much peak torque, about 300% of nameplate, 3 secs.

So a 2.5 kW AC servo, (mine), delivers more torque, better, than a 7.5 kW normal drive, almost always.

If one is continuously cutting at 7 Hp MRR, this does not hold, of course, if and only if the RPM is at the sweet spot for the old 7.5 kW motor+drive system.
Using belts and gears one is likely near the sweet spot for the 7.5 Hp motor at some given radius say 150 mm / 1000 rpm.
And can utilise maybe 6 Hp of output power.
At larger radius (torque, tool SFM), and smaller radius (speed), the 7.5 Hp motor wont deliver more than 3 Hp, typically.

The Monarch drive can deliver 7Hp on cutting a cylinder, at some near-optimum radius, rpm, feed, speed.
And do so extremely well.

A 2.5 kW AC servo would do about 60% of the MRR, maybe 65%.
A 4 kW AC servo might do near-enough the same (== 5.6 Hp sustained output) MRR as the Monarch drive.

In reducing a cylinder of 100 kg mass, steel, 50 cm long, 20 cm D (8"), by 80% to 4 cm D over 40 cm length cut vs 500 mm original length.
The Monarch drive would take about the same time as the 4 kW AC servo, servo probably a bit less.

Example:
Reducing 80 kg steel billet to chips in 20 cm D (maybe 1. mm DOC, maybe 2 mm DOC) would be limited by motor power.
The lathe has the rigidity and toolbits have the capacity.
Somewhere near 500 rpm, at 200 mm D, wag.
Would expect about 2 hours cut time, by tlar.

As the diameter goes down, 20 cm to 4 cm the Monarch would need some adjusting to maintain optimal performance.

--
I am NOT putting the Monarch drive down.

My Bridgeport M head with original 3 phase motor is circa 1940, about 80 years old, afaik.
The motor is excellent, near-silent sub 600 rpm, run forever at rated power output (1/2 Hp) 1400 rpm maybe.

It was the best motor US engineering could build, 1940, and the best in the world, +/-, at that time.
Masses 18 kg.

The 3000 rpm AC servo on the lathe, 15 kg, 2.5 kW sustained, is == 6x more powerful by mass.
Accelerates to 3000 rpm in 30 ms.
30 Nm peak upto 3 secs.
Twice the output shaft D, due to 5x better torque response, or more.

Double the shaft, bit smaller package, less heat at low/medium load, 6x more power output, positioning at 10.000 counts / rev, about 20x peak torque.

6x the power by size or mass.
Has less than half the heat losses due to engineering issues. (Inductance, ripple current, hysteresis).
12-15x the torque at usual speeds, much more at very high or very low speeds.

Point:
The best 3-phase motor, 1940, Bp, similar to a Monarch drivesystem in many ways.
Is about 6-18x weaker than a modern, cheap, AC brushless servo. (industrial, import, by me).

--

I would never spend 6000$ on Monarch electrical drive stuff.

3400$ or less would get a 4 kW (+/-) drive 6x better in every way, and 0-3000 rpm, as one wants.
Practically zero gear changes ever, removing gearing/belting being a practical option.

Or just run at 1:1 or .7:1 for 0-4000 rpm, if very heavy material removal is not common in large steel/CI pieces.
1:3 or 1:1 (or less) (timing) belts perhaps being an option, if one does turning of very small pieces under 2 cm in D, and one also needs to turn large steel pieces over 20 cm D / 8" with high power in MRR for efficient stock removal.
 
Forget static converters for a 10EE, ..
So-called "static phase converters" SPCs do, in fact, work just fine for motor/generator 10EEs. Several people are using them. You probably want to add run capacitors to avoid issues when the load on the MG changes.

Daniel, nothing that you've posted so far indicates that you should be considering replacing the original drive system.

Cal
 
yes, i get that. my mill doesnt like the static when its running fast and loaded. tries to make the static chatter until i slow things down. this is a very nice machine. just has been dropped kicked around so cal for many years. just needs some power and some love in all the right places! i am studying the charts you led me to, and going to make sure it makes sense before i start arc welding the motors!
 
yes, i get that. my mill doesnt like the static when its running fast and loaded. tries to make the static chatter until i slow things down. ...
If the so-called "static phase converter" (SPC) is chattering, then it's being overloaded or is malfunctioning. The only thing in an SPC that can make any noise is the relay that switches the starting capacitors in and out of the circuit. If it's chattering, the start caps are switching in and out. A pair of run capacitors would probably go a long way towards eliminating the problem.

Here's a link where member bob49 reports that his 10EE, which he uses on a daily basis, work just fine using an SPC: seperating 10ee genny from motor

In your case, since you have more than one 3-phase machine to power, a rotary phase converter is probably a better choice.

Cal
 
ok, i think cal is onto something here. as far as i can tell since this machine was a totally unmolested piece, and ran ok, i am going to change it to a 230 v 3 phase input. i called phase a matic and they said i could run it on a static model 900hd or a rotary r7. 310.00 for a static, or 1450.00 for the rotary. after reading all the posts, i came up with a list
1) connect the motor leads to the 230 configuration
2) change the heaters to 1372 versions
3) im not sure on this one, and i didnt mention it before, but the light bulb is 220v? and it has a 460v to 115v transformer directly off the fuses. i dont know if this actually worked, or should i just put the light directly to 2 legs of the input and put a std bulb in it? i see they say to put a 6v transformer on it, so did they run 6v light bulbs at one time?
4) does anybody have a contact for the belts in this machine?
5) i need to change the 440 v contactor coil to a 220v. any part numbers for this? i am calling brazil on this
6) my reverse doesnt work, and after seeing a few posts about the contacts being unobtainable i bought a complete relay panel off ebay this week that has everything in it. should have any parts that are smoked in it to fix this.

after looking closer at the motor, i can see the numbers in the id tags. makes more sense about what to hook up to what.

anything i missed,or comments? thanks again for all the posts, i knew it wasnt as easy as hooking up to the pole!s-l1600.jpg
 
your right on that cal. when i really get the mill up to speed and digging hard, you can tell the static doesnt like it. starts chattering until i lessen the load. i dont have much experience with rotarys. any harder to hookup? cant say ive ever seen a shop with one in it. they already have the commercial wiring available.
 
ok, i think cal is onto something here. as far as i can tell since this machine was a totally unmolested piece, and ran ok, i am going to change it to a 230 v 3 phase input. i called phase a matic and they said i could run it on a static model 900hd or a rotary r7. 310.00 for a static, or 1450.00 for the rotary. ...
Since you have at least one other 3-phase machine, a rotary phase converter (RPC) is probably the way to go. You can usually buy a used 3-phase motor (to use as the idler for the RPC) locally for about $10 per HP. A 7.5HP idler is sufficient for a 10EE and most other 3-phase equipment under 5HP (excluding things that start under load, like large compressors). WNY Supply has 7.5 HP RPC panels for under $200 and kits to build your own panel for under $100. (I don't have any relationship with WNY, but I've sent a number of people their way and have gotten good feedback.)

... after reading all the posts, i came up with a list
1) connect the motor leads to the 230 configuration
2) change the heaters to 1372 versions
...
5) i need to change the 440 v contactor coil to a 220v. any part numbers for this? i am calling brazil on this
There's a pair of 1327 heaters on eBay right now.

Brazil should know what coil you need. Tell them it's a Cutler-Hammer 9586 size 1 contactor and they can find the right coil. If they don't have the coil you can get a control transformer to step up 240 to 480 so that the existing coil will work. You still need to change the overload heaters if you do that.

...
3) im not sure on this one, and i didnt mention it before, but the light bulb is 220v? and it has a 460v to 115v transformer directly off the fuses. i dont know if this actually worked, or should i just put the light directly to 2 legs of the input and put a std bulb in it? i see they say to put a 6v transformer on it, so did they run 6v light bulbs at one time?
...
The original setup had a small transformer to provide 6VAC for the pilot light in the start/stop station. Is that what you're talking about? Or are you talking about a work light?

Can you post a photo of the tag on the transformer?

your right on that cal. when i really get the mill up to speed and digging hard, you can tell the static doesnt like it. starts chattering until i lessen the load. i dont have much experience with rotarys. any harder to hookup? cant say ive ever seen a shop with one in it. they already have the commercial wiring available.
Hooking up an RPC is no more difficult than a static converter. This link does a reasonable job of explaining the differences between RPCs and static converters, as well as how to balance them: phaseconverter
One word of caution is that you want to use 370VAC rated capacitors, not the 250s that the guy suggests. WNY also sells run capacitors (link) if you want to try tuning the converter on you mill.

Cal
 
Since you have at least one other 3-phase machine, a rotary phase converter (RPC) is probably the way to go. You can usually buy a used 3-phase motor (to use as the idler for the RPC) locally for about $10 per HP. A 7.5HP idler is sufficient for a 10EE and most other 3-phase equipment under 5HP (excluding things that start under load, like large compressors). WNY Supply has 7.5 HP RPC panels for under $200 and kits to build your own panel for under $100. (I don't have any relationship with WNY, but I've sent a number of people their way and have gotten good feedback.)


There's a pair of 1327 heaters on eBay right now.

Brazil should know what coil you need. Tell them it's a Cutler-Hammer 9586 size 1 contactor and they can find the right coil. If they don't have the coil you can get a control transformer to step up 240 to 480 so that the existing coil will work. You still need to change the overload heaters if you do that.


The original setup had a small transformer to provide 6VAC for the pilot light in the start/stop station. Is that what you're talking about? Or are you talking about a work light?

Can you post a photo of the tag on the transformer?


Hooking up an RPC is no more difficult than a static converter. This link does a reasonable job of explaining the differences between RPCs and static converters, as well as how to balance them: phaseconverter
One word of caution is that you want to use 370VAC rated capacitors, not the 250s that the guy suggests. WNY also sells run capacitors (link) if you want to try tuning the converter on you mill.

Cal

ok, i didnt know about the 6v transformer just for the light. i found 2 transformers. one is to the left of the power contacts, and one is behing a box all by itself with a switch and some provisions for 115 v plug insS7110035.jpg im a little lost when you start talking idlers and such. does that mean you have a motor running a rotary?
 

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ok, i didnt know about the 6v transformer just for the light. i found 2 transformers. one is to the left of the power contacts, and one is behing a box all by itself with a switch and some provisions for 115 v plug ins
View attachment 262853
im a little lost when you start talking idlers and such. does that mean you have a motor running a rotary?
The larger transformer is there to provide a 120 VAC outlet for things like a work light. It appears to have a fixed step-down from 480 to 120. You'll have to replace it if you want the outlet to work properly. If it were me, I would just remove it.

The main difference between a static converter and a rotary phase converter (RPC), is that an RPC includes an idler motor. But you can save money by just buying the RPC panel and getting a common 3-phase motor to use as the idler motor. The idler motor in an RPC helps provide power to the load motor's third phase.

Cal
 
update 8/13/19 brazil doesnt have any more transformers. the part number is 9-464-2 for a 208/230 v contact coil. i did find them on ebay though and are coming. they didnt have the h1372 heater coils either, but was able to find them on ebay also. fyi the pn for 440v is 9-464-3 and a 110v is 9-464-1 for the contact coils. im still working on the phase converter on which one to get, but sounds like in the long run a rotary will be better. and thermite, sorry to bother you with my small and rediculous questions, but i am convinced i dont want to smoke this machine!
 








 
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