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Thread: Another New Toy

  1. #41
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    Oops, I forgot to mention that there is no channel, like on the EE, to hold a bead type seal. One edge has to be glued on. These doors do control the access to the leveling screws and the electrical compartment.
    Harry

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    Well, heck, you should've mentioned that you wanted to open these doors afterwards...

    In that case I've be tempted to use something like a foam backed with adhesive. The right thickness and hardness would have the doors very well sealed on closing. A lot of the foams available, however, are resistant to either oil or water but not both. A rubber seal could be used if there's enough room behind the door (but not too much) - Buna or Viton are both pretty good for something like this.

  3. #43
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    I think the rectangular cross section closed cell weather strip type material would work, neoprene IIRC is both oil and water resistant. Something like MMC 90125K31 to 35

    Steve

  4. #44
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    I've had the top cover off the gearbox for several days, and kept wiping oil off the right front area. Today the puddle was a little larger, and I decided to do some investigating. The speed shifting mechanisn that you don't see is under the covers, and after looking at the manual I found that the covers just pulled off. The shifter shafts exit the headstock under the oil level, and sealed with gland nuts, and what looks like Oakem packing. Never could get the leaks to stop on my 16" CY or the 12" CK, but I significantly reduced the rate. I think John Oder knows exactly what I'm talking about here.
    The majority of the problem, on this lathe, is that the gland nuts kept loosening every time the the speed was changed. The question is how to keep the nuts from loosening. I didn't care for the use of Loctite in this application, nor did I like the idea of upsetting part of the threads. The solution I arrived at was to wrap several layers of Teflon tape around the gland nuts in an attempt to increase the pitch diameter of the threads. It seems to have worked, for now.
    Some pictures;

    Covers removed, and right side tube levers(shifters) removed. The bevel gear set, in the middle, is part of the leadscrew reverse mechanism. The 6 bumoers, I couldn't find them in the parts manual, apparently limit the travels of the tube levers.


    The leaking gland nuts. The are 2 of them, the small one threads into the large splined shifter tube, and the larger one threads into the headstock. The Teflon tape has already been apllied.


    A better view of the leadscrew reverse mechanism, and for those of you who aren't familiar with this, I'm going to attempt to explain this.
    The large bevel gear is pinned to the shaft, which goes inside the headstock, and is pinned to the single dog clutch shifter yoke. Also pinned to this shaft is a three position detent, which is above the bevel gear. The small bevel gear is attached to the gear segment inside the gearbox, which meshes with the circular gear rack, which is pinned to the reverse rod, that runs the full length of the bed. The motion, left and right, of the rod, comes from the worm which inside the nut casting to the left. The rod's motion is imparted by the lever mounted on the apron; up, neutral, and down, which gives the feed direction.
    The gear inside the gearbox, on the right, is attached to the leadscrew.

    Harry

  5. #45
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    Time for the TA to come off. The tool post, compound rest, cross feed handle assembly, and cross slide come off first, followed by the TA's rear drawbar clamp cover with stud. Then the drawbar and cross feed screw are teased out as one unit. The slide gibs, the 2 flat bars that go on each side of the slide to keep it from rising, and finally the slide and swivel are removed. The TA's bed bracket and draw rod had been removed previously.

    There are 6 screws and 2 dowel pins attaching the TA's carriage bracket to the carriage, the 2 dowel pins and 4 of the screws are plainly visible with the TA assembled, but there are 2 screws that are buried, requiring the above disassembly. The screws and dowel pins are marked in white. There are 2 errant marks, they are the 3rd from each end on the top row.


    The slide, swivel and shoe came off as one unit.


    The cross feed screw and TA drawbar, compound rest and cross feed handle assembly.
    .
    Harry

  6. #46
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    I've been working on the TA, as you will soon see. That puppy is heavy, the carriage bracket weighs a 119 LBS stripped, the slide and swivel are a combined 83 LBS. There is a magnifier and cover in the swivel, sorry no picture, that I used Simichrome polish to remove the oil staining and clear these pieces up. Didn't remove the scratches, but at least I can read the degree scale very easily.
    The rest of this post is best told with pictures.
    The paint color is Sherwin-Williams Safety Blue. It is a lot darker than the pictures show.

    TA carriage bracket ready for reinstallation, but that's aways off. The carriage and apron have to come first.
    The little bag in the middle contains misc parts. The horizontal double row ball bearings form the vertical ways for the slide, and the vertical single row bearings form the horizontal ways. Each bearing is adjusted by an eccentric stud, with approx .025" offset(I had to make one).


    A close up of one ofthe "hidden" screw holes to the left of the right double row bearing.


    The bottom of the bracket, think it has enough bracing?


    The shoe, swivel, slide TA draw rod, and gibs. The large holes in the gibs are for the eccentric studs.


    The fixed end of the cross feed screw. The top row of parts are in the order they came apart. The previous owners did a very "iffy" repair job. From L to R; The Nyloc nut, to the left below the retainer plate, has a set screw hole one of the faces. Very difficult to find and take apart. The retainer plate is a hack job, the seal was used as a spacer, and was ruined by the nut and should have been on the other end. The spacer as a result is about 3/16" to short, and the 4 sealed ball bearings should angular contact bearings.
    The lower row: The new bearing retainer, new spacer, not shown are the 4 7202 angular contact bearings, they're still packed as I'm not to assemble yet. The bearing housing and a new seal.
    When I took this apart, the cross feed screw threads were flush with the end of the housing, definitely not the Monarch way, and should be about 1/4" from the housing.

    Harry

  7. #47
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    the construction and design of Monarch lathes is really something. They never seem to have made a half-assed part , assembly or machine.

  8. Likes Cole2534 liked this post
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    I thought the details of the cross feed handwheel assembly were interesting enough to post this information. For the Monarch people this is "old hat", but there is a twist, at least on the SE60, as I found out.

    Details of the thread cutting stop. The top piece is the "cross feed bushing" which attaches to the carriage. Notice the screw in the left side, the end of which can be seen in the bushing's bore, the is the engaged position. The lower piece is the cross feed dial; the 3 plates in the center is the "lock collar assembly", the 2 outer collars heve L shaped tabs opposing each other, and the center collar's tab is flat. There are 2 pins, 180* apart, one of which is visible, which stop the movement. This set up allows allows 2 revolutions of the cross feed screw, and from my experience is very repeatable. When the stop screw is backed out, the cross slide returns to regular operation.



    The piece in the upper left is the "cross feed bushing" The piece in the top right is the "cross feed knob". In the knob, the "dial lock screw" is top center, and the 2 pins, 180* apart, extend about 1/8". The ring, center right, I'm calling it a wobble ring (it's not in the SE 61 manual I have), and this is the "twist", rests on the pins, and is between the knob, and the "dial lock ring" on the bottom right. The "dial lock ring" has a tapered OD, and is in the tapered ID of the dial (this is the other side).


    A better illustration of the above explanation, partially assembled.


    All of the above assembled, and ready for installation to the carriage.

    Harry

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    Harry, thanks for posting the pictures. Even though I don't own anything larger than a 10EE, its quite interesting. The dial assembly parts look identical to the square dial dial assembly, just larger.

    -Dave

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    Dave,
    You're about the dial assembly looking just like the EE's. It has been several years since I got into one, although that's eventually coming up on the "Wreck", and I forgot what the internals were like. I'll put the assembly on a scale tomorrow to what it weighs, just out of curiousity.
    Harry

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    Harry,

    I sure have enjoyed your post and all the pictures. Thanks, makes me wish I had time to rebuild more of my 1965 610 monarch.

    This is an easy if slightly expensive way to change the chucks. I have found it to do the job very well.




    Cheers
    SF

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    Harry you are doing a very good job.When I took my croos feed dial apart I found hair inside the parts I thought it may have been there to hold oil any one know .And on the the cross feed screw bearings .On mine it has thrust bearing stacked up 4 sets .So I thought I would go get some new ones untill I found out that they are high persion bearings at 500 bucks so thats were your sealed ball bearing may have replaced the trust bearings at one time. Know you can see how these machines cost so much in there day .A import lathe only uses a brass bushing to do that job.

  14. #53
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    Thanks for the compliments an encouragement.
    I don't have any pictures of the progress this week, as I'm in the process of stripping, actually scraping, the old paint off, and prepping the headstock, bed and pedestals for painting. It's not a task I enjoy, there is a reason my wife doesn't want me anywhere near a paint brush, but I couldn't stand that color.
    I did get the jib crane finished and mounted to remove the chuck, and I did find the source of the oil leak on the spindle end. I thought the labyrinth seal was clogged, but it's a bearing cover plate behind the spindle. Should be an easy fix, but I'm going to have drain the headstock oil a little to get below the plate.
    Regarding the bearing stack for the cross feed screw, the bearings cost approx 88.00 total. I thought about radial bearings for the stack, but ruled that out, as thrust has to accounted for in this application. Obvisously these aren't high precision, but they should be OK.
    The double row bearings in the TA are angular contact bearings. The catalog prices, MSC & MMC for reference, got me calling the local bearing supplier for a more economical solution, which also proved very interesting. He priced the bearings from approx 8.50 to 40.00+ each depending on manufacturer and country of origin. I asked what the difference was, and the answer was "not much". Considering that the TA doesn't move at high speed, a crawl is more like it, and it doesn't get used much, I opted for the cheapies.
    I'll keep you posted on progress.
    Harry

  15. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by beckley23 View Post
    The headstock and gearbox pumps are off the machine for servicing, and while I'm at it, the meter units will be replaced.
    Harry
    Harry, great job on the lathe.
    I am wondering why you need to replace these meter units?
    Are they faulty? Do they wear out?
    It's also very nice to know that there are others out there who are just as crazy(?) as I am. When I was knee deep cleaing up my DSG I wondered about my sanity at times, and then it was done and how sweet it is to turn on the old girl and cut some metal, smooth and precise. I've just finished the oiler and will be posting pics on the DSG thread soon.
    Michael

  16. #55
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    When I go through a machine, replacing the meter units is SOP. I don't know if the originals are good or bad, but the machine, in this case, is 54 years old, and I ask myself this question "How much of a gambler are you?" Admittedly, the meter units that have been replaced are relatively easy to get to, but the ones in the carriage and apron aren't, so I convince myself that replacement is cheap insurance.

    Not much progress has been made on the lathe since my last post, and I don't expect to get back to it for another 2-3 weeks, at the present time. The next order of work is to get the carriage and apron off, complete the paint prep work on the bed, headstock, pans, pedestals, and then brush some paint.
    Harry

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    The first 3 pictures were taken shortly after my last progress post in Novenber.
    There was and still is an oil seepage problem around the spindle bearing cap and the front intermediate shaft cap. I thought the seepage was coming from the later, but the intervening time has proved me wrong, so I think the leak is coming from the spindle bearing cap.


    Another oil seepage spot on the rear of the headstock. I removed the cover, cleaned the surfaces and applied Loctite 515 Gasket Eliminator. Thus far everything is OK.


    The rear of the bed where I've been scaping the old nasty "yellow" paint off, Comes off rather easily, there wasn't much prep work done by the original owners. One curiousity I noticed is that the most of the bed sheer has been planed.


    It is now time to start the removal of the carriage and apron. The first order of business is to get the leadscrew, feedrod and the clutch shaft removed and/or separated from the apron. IIRC when I did the same thing to the CY 19+ years ago, I removed the right end bracket, and the right plate from the gearbox, wrapped a strap around the reverse shaft, and removed the screws from the carriage/apron assembly and dropped it down and out from the bed. This time I'm removing as much of the shafting as possible in the interest of machine safety, I don't want to break or damage anything. My procedure this time is to remove the 3 shafts while the apron is still attached to the carriage, I'm leaving the reverse shaft in as a lifting point. The leadscrew and feedrod have been removed, and I'm working on getting the reverse shaft out of the gearbox. I will have to remove the right end plate of the gearbox and drop the clutch bracket from the bottom of the carriage, before removal of the apron. I also found out that the threading dial has to removed so that the leadscrew can pulled out of the apron, the thread dial gear isn't going to pass the straight section of the leadscrew.
    Incidently my old cameras died, so I'm in the process of learning a new camera(something about old dogs and new tricks)

    Harry

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    Getting the feed reverse shaft extracted from the gearbox proved to be a challenge, or I had a case of the stupids(most likely). The shaft is actually a 2 pieces on is short and extends about 1" out of the gearbox and the balance runs the bed length. They are held together by a coupling with a taper oin in each part. As is usual, the accessible taper pin didn't want to out, mainly because I couldn't get a straight shot at the small end. I removed the dowel pins, you'll see them soon, and then the stupids set in. This shaft is a tight sliding fit in the worm and circular rack gear and usually very easy to pull free, but not the other day. So I clamped channellock on the shaft, I have a channellock just for this purpose, and proceded to work it with a hammer. After a few hits and making marginal progress, I called it quits for the day. Actually I think I was worried about the freezing rain, sleet, and snow storm we were just starting to get. Yesterday was spent digging out. Anyway, while shoveling the driveway, I got the smarts and figured out how to get the shaft extracted from the gearbox.

    The feed stop on the reverse shaft locked in place hard against the carriage, and used the carraige to do the extraction, very easy. The scarring on the shaft can be filed off, but I'll always have a reminder.


    The thread dial housing in back and the feed reverse nut with the worm partially exposed. The nut and worm give the reverse shaft its axial action and move the reverse gearing in the headstock. The nut is a cast iron housing with a babbit center with threads.


    The feed reverse nut is on the left, the circular gear rack on right. The wire is on the gear to keep it from falling into the gearbox when the shaft is fully extracted. The 2 pins are for securing the the worm and gear rack to the shaft. The shaft has been partially extracted and the holes are for the pins. The pins are threaded on one and have an hex broached in the other for a wrench. The shaft was fully extracted afterwards.


    I have tried to get the right end gearbox plate off, but I don't I'm think going to be successful. I'll take another look at it, soon.
    Harry

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    If the gearbox design shares much with the square dial 10EE design the right hand gearbox plate can't be removed without removing the gearbox from the lathe. On the 10EE there is a plate screwed onto the rear of the gearbox and it has screws going into the right hand gearbox plate.

    It has been fascinating to look over your shoulder as you work on this lathe. Thanks for taking the time to post your progress.

  20. #59
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    Dave, I think you're correct. The parts list shows 10 screws, and I could only find 8, the others are behind the leadscrew and feed rod bearing cartridges, hidden by the bed sheer. Unless something comes up, the gearbox is staying put.


    The leadscrew, top, and the feed rod, bottom, bearing cartridges. For the curious, the gears are 8 DP.


    The apron is ready for removal. The long shaft on the floor is the apron clutch shaft.

    Harry

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    In my post of 1-27, I mentioned that the spindle bearing cap was leaking, actually it was a seepage problem, a very small one, but aggravating. I'm also in the process of painting, more like slopping paint on, the lathe, and I want to get this seepage problem corrected. The seepage was not coming from the spindle, but from the lower side or bottom of the cap, next to the front intermediate cap(see the picture in 1-27's post). Removing the cap is not as easy as it seems, it's just like the cap on the EE, there's a flange behind the D1-6 end which means that the spindle has to come out. If I had to do that, I would have lived with the seepage, I'm not pulling a spindle unless I absolutely have to.
    I came up with the "what if" question: If I removed the 5 screws attaching the cap to the headstock, how much could I move the cap forward in order to get in there and clean the surfaces and apply some sealant and reattach. The net result of this long story is that I called Monarch and spoke to Scott about this issue. Scott suggested that I loosen the bearing preload nuts on the back end of the spindle and move it towards the tailstock. The only problem is that he didn't know how much clearance I would gain, with the bull gear being the biggest problem. I thought of one other potential problem concerning the clutches and how much movement they would allow. There was only one way to find out.
    I proceded to loosen the nuts, and remove the screws, I and then I got out the soft face hammer. That didn't work, so I got I my gentle persuader, and an aluminum block, and a few whacks later the spindle was moved about 3/16". I would have liked a bit more room, but I wasn't going to tempt the fates.
    The next issue was cleaning the mating surfaces, and there are 4 of them; both sides of the gasket, and the iron faces of the headstock and the bearing cap. I tried a bit carburerator cleaner followed by acetone, and finally blew it out with canned air, the type that is used to clean keyboards. I wanted something gentle and not a blast from an air compressor, which I figured would do some damage to the gasket and no telling what else. The next issue was applying the sealant. I rotated the cap 360*, the intermediate has to be removed to totate the spindle bearing cap, applying the sealant to the bearing cap side of the gasket, pressed it against the cap, and repeated for the headstock surface. This sealant I chose for this application is Loctite 515 Gasket Eliminator.
    I next coated the cap screws, under the heads, with RTV. I then drove the screws in and tightened the preload nuts and refilled the headstock with oil. So far, it's been about 6 hours, there are no leaks. I'll see how I did tomorrow, and if no leaks, I'll be slopping some more paint.
    I think the original ownershad the spindle out; the spindle bearing cap screws holes were loaded with Permatex, as were the screws. I don't think Monarch used Permatex, at least I've never seen it when I'm the first one to remove a screw.
    The pictures don't need an explanation.



    Harry
    Last edited by beckley23; 02-10-2009 at 12:38 AM. Reason: Additional info


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