Apron oil pump question
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  1. #1
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    Default Apron oil pump question

    Boy it feels good to ask an operational question, rather than a rebuild question, after 2 1/2 years.

    I replaced all the Bijur metering fittings in the apron/saddle with identical new old stock items off Ebay. The fitting to the front V way was a medium volume one and the other ones: back way, cross slide ways, cross slide dial, were small volume. I gleaned that information from old Bijur documentation I came across on the computer.

    Now that I am using the lathe, I have oil everywhere. Oil drips from the front and back ways from the way oilers, I have oil dripping down both sides of the cross slide from its oiler, and I have oil dripping on the floor coming from the bottom of the cross slide dial, as well as oil running down the front of the apron from between the dial mounting pad and the dial flange, and I did make little fiber gasket for the passage from the mounting pad to the dial flange.

    Is all this normal?

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    I don't have that problem with my 10EE and I don't recall anyone mentioning too much oil before. So, no, that's not normal. The only thing I can think of is that your replacement oilers are defective; maybe somebody drilled them out. If you pressurize one of the small volume oilers to 15 PSI, you should get a drop about once every one or two minutes. If it's a steady stream, the oiler is defective.

    Cal

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    Yep, something isn't right. I replaced all of meters and tubing/fittings, rebuilt the pump. And the only way I can describe the result is it just looks right. Not too little, not too much. Before you go and think you need to replace stuff.... If you are not using it already, switch to Vacuoline 1409 instead of Vactra #2. Vacuoline is the old #2 formulation that has tackifiers in it that the new formulation of #2 does not. #2 will run all over the place on some machines instead of staying where it should. Give it a try first.

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    You know that every time you move the carriage either way, the oil pump is operated. If your are doing a lot of back and forth that may be what you are running into. Second, there may be a relief valve with the pump that is stuck.

    Better too much oil than not enough. Oil is cheap.

    Tom

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    What is involved with rebuilding the pump?

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    Thanks all. When I replaced the fittings I checked them by attaching to the electric oiler on my mill. They all seemed to have a reasonable drip-drip.

    Tom - good comment. I do modeling work and take little material off at a time, so yes, there is a lot of back and forth. There isn't a relief valve on this pump. The picture is from the round dial manual. The mounting bracket in the apron is different but the pump is the same.

    Daryl, I'll look into that oil. Do you know of a vendor who sells 1 gallon jugs of it? So far all I can find is 5 gallon pails.

    Rich - nothing to it. take apart and clean and replace the felt filter. I used F10 sheet from McMaster.

    screen-shot-2019-09-28-11.35.32-am.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by bll230 View Post

    Daryl, I'll look into that oil. Do you know of a vendor who sells 1 gallon jugs of it? So far all I can find is 5 gallon pails.

    Unfortunately no. I went to a local oil distributor and just bought a 5 gallon pail. Figured it would last me awhile, but I have a number of machines that use Vactra #2, and it has been a worthwhile investment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bll230 View Post
    Thanks all. When I replaced the fittings I checked them by attaching to the electric oiler on my mill. They all seemed to have a reasonable drip-drip. ...
    What's a "reasonable drip-drip"? As I said, a new oiler does't pass much oil at all. It's drip...wait two minutes...drip. If oil is actually dripping out of the cross-feed dial, you have bad oilers, period. Square-dial 10EEs have a different cam setup and the pump runs any time that the feed rod is turning. Oil dripping out of the cross-feed dial is not a problem on any square-dial (or round-dial) that I've come across.

    I suppose that another possibility is that the metering unit that sends oil to the apron is blocked, so that all the oil is going to the saddle. Normally, the bulk of the oil goes to the little reservoir in the top of the apron. Some goes to the feed rod worm and to the half nuts, but most of it gets dumped back into the apron and recirculated from there. Effectively, the metering unit that feeds the apron IS the relief valve for the system.

    Cal

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    Cal, I changed the metering fitting in the apron as well, that one was easy to check, I plugged the passage to the saddle and watched the oil go into the the little reservoir, filled with fresh cotton string to above the hole to the half nuts. Lots of oil went into the reservoir and went into the tubes to the friction clutches.

    As an aside I had turned my head while power feeding and my carriage hit the micrometer stop rod and the friction clutch simply slipped, just as Donie said. I do have new thrust bearings in my friction clutches, custom fitted as the proper 1/2 inch id thrust bearing is no longer made.

    I agree with you, I will need to take the saddle off and look into the issue. Next time I'll probably get new fittings direct from Bijur. For now I'll deal with it and make some parts.

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    I'll split a 5 gal pail with you if its not too expensive.

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    A couple of months ago i brought home a 1941 16CY and, no surprise, the apron pump was all gunked up. Since coming home, i've been cleaning all that i can and my next step is to remove the apron, lift off the saddle and ensure the oiling system is working properly. Should i even bother trying to clear lines and metering units or should i not mess around and just replace everything?

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    Quote Originally Posted by marka12161 View Post
    A couple of months ago i brought home a 1941 16CY and, no surprise, the apron pump was all gunked up. Since coming home, i've been cleaning all that i can and my next step is to remove the apron, lift off the saddle and ensure the oiling system is working properly. Should i even bother trying to clear lines and metering units or should i not mess around and just replace everything?
    So long as the copper lines are in good condition, I would use them. The size is 5/32" which is an odd ball plus trying to shape the lines to fit where they need to go can be a problem, particularly under the saddle.

    Tom

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    Cal, After talking to Rich and investigating further, I do have the proper 00 fittings, but obviously I have some other issue, possibly they were defective even though they were new. There is one unknown, for the time being. It is possible the fitting in the reservoir was not the right one, so I replaced it with an identical wrong one. I remember buying only MJC00 and MJB00. Do you remember whether the fitting in the reservoir is a 00? if I restricted the flow in the apron too much it would explain why I am getting too much to the saddle.

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    I did what I should have done at the beginning and emailed Steve at Monarch. He gave me the definitive answer. The fitting in the apron is a 5 psi check valve. He said if a metering fitting is put in instead of the check valve the saddle will "oil like crazy." He also sent the following picture showing the proper metering fittings.

    My fittings had obviously been changed by a previous owner because they did not match the proper ones. Note that the way fittings are "0", not "00". Makes sense since removing the metering fitting in the apron will significantly lessen the pressure to the saddle manifold.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails screen-shot-2019-10-07-10.58.38-am.jpg  
    Last edited by bll230; 10-07-2019 at 08:29 PM.

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    Comment for others who are buying new fittings, I ordered mine from Fluidline last week, and yesterday removed the apron. Ugh, I find the check valve in the apron is a 1/8 NPT thread, not the 5/16-24 thread like the metering fittings. Now I have to wait another week to get the right check valve....

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    I have my lathe back together, and with the 5 psi check valve installed my apron is no longer "oiling like crazy." I ran the power feed at highest feed (highest RPM on the feed shaft) with the cross slide and dial off for 15 minutes, and it wasn't long enough to fill the oil lines to where I could see oil coming out of the holes. I am sure they will fill eventually. Before oil would have been spurting out at that feed setting.

    Picture of my shiny new check valve and fresh cotton string.

    img_0872-copy.jpg

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