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Awakening the monarch 10ee with new power!

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Plastic
Joined
Mar 8, 2018
Have had a 10ee sitting around and finally got the time to put some work to it. Am removing the DC motor and going with a. Inverter duty 5 hp. A couple simple plates will get run on the waterjet followed up with reams and threads. I have another 10ee that was updated but either monarch or someone knowledgable. That is my research lathe to disassemble and reverse engineer to gather dimensions and test fit.
 
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Faster, too. Generally "all of the above" what with the current pool of ways and means, OEM plus multiple choices present-day and "right here on PM" in this forum.

If it is to go VFD, 5 HP is ..mm "highly sub optimal". Look to get 7.5 HP in there, and the best VFD there's money for. Yaskawa, "Industrial-grade", and 3-Phase input powered even so.

That's pretty close to break-even with OEM DC. Anything less is a down-grade.

Agreed.

Why mess with that old copper. Clean it up and GO.
 
It seems that the first impulse of everyone who gets a 10EE that isn't ready to go is to rip it all out and install some sort of AC motor with a VFD. Over ten years ago a local shop had a modular 10EE that they couldn't get running. I had to beat the owner severely about the head and shoulders to make him let me fix the existing electronics. It has been running in daily job shop use ever since. I have had to make a couple of service calls in that time, but for relatively minor problems. Meanwhile, their motor generator 10EE has been also in the same service and I have to free one stuck brush. Nothing else.

You can bolt a motor on your lathe and get the spindle to turn, but that is a long way from a proper unit with all the nuances. The people at the factory put a pot of thought and effort in their systems and they may have actually known more about it than we do.

Bill
 
This debate always makes me wonder if there are classic muscle car forums that have people pop in who what to "upgrade" their cars by replacing the old, inefficient big block V-8 with a nice, new, computer-contolled, made-in-Asia engine.

Like the classic muscle cars, a LARGE part of the 10EEs reputation as a top-shelf toolroom lathe is it's drive system.
 
My long and short of it is this. Monarch updates the lathes with a vfd and ac drive. Which I have. My outdated tube style does not work. Rather than try to get another year before used tube takes a dump I will go along with the times. I don't mean to disrupt the views of the nostalgic folks on here. Hence i have a 4k flat screen in my home. I don't want a tube to gp out And be without the lathe for weeks searching Ebay. Plus is great project for the kids. I'm an instructor at a community college.
 
My long and short of it is this. Monarch updates the lathes with a vfd and ac drive. Which I have. My outdated tube style does not work. Rather than try to get another year before used tube takes a dump I will go along with the times. I don't mean to disrupt the views of the nostalgic folks on here. Hence i have a 4k flat screen in my home. I don't want a tube to gp out And be without the lathe for weeks searching Ebay. Plus is great project for the kids. I'm an instructor at a community college.

My Monarch 10ee is a 1956 WIAD “tube drive” and for what it’s worth my current television is 4K.

The consensus here in the Monarch forum is that if you have an intact DC drive, especially one that was recently running, it is a far easier and faster task to restore operation than to replace the entire drive system.

As stewards of these pieces of history we try to help owners keep their machines in operational and useful condition. All too often we see conversions started and never completed. Many new owners check in here on the forum, arriving with a picture of a gutted motor cabinet and a statement that the previous owner sold or scrapped the OE drive. Sometimes these new owners are blessed with a VFD and AC motor, but often they are not.

Monarch replaces the DC systems in their remanufactured EEs so they can buy all new off the shelf parts. Their system is a 10hp motor and a fully programmable VFD that they have tuned for turning across the range. When coupled with a 10hp motor, Monarch does not use the two speed back gear. Anything less than 10hp in an AC drive should use the back gear.

Removing the existing drive is the easy part of the VFD conversion. You may need access to both a lathe and a mill to couple the new motor to the drive. The drive pulleys are often splined which requires a custom motor pulley for the 10hp conversion or you’ll need to figure out your coupling to the backgear unit. Keep in mind you need a motor that fits in the base, AC motors once adapted tend to stick back farther in the base casting and may interfere with one of the internal bulkheads or reinforcement webs.

Election tubes are highly reliable once you have a working set. The large C16J tubes are the only difficult ones to get and there are now direct sold state replacements using SCR drivers sold by a forum member. I am running these in my tube drive with a set of tubes on the shelf as a backup.

If you head down the VFD path, we will be happy to assist, please make your removed parts available to other members here on the forum.

Ryan
 
Sad, you've got a person updating an otherwise inoperable machine while teaching students a skilled trade while "experts" trash talk. It's hard enough to recruit students into this field even worse when people like you push nostalgic agenda. Sad
 
The only way I see this a worth while conversion is if the new drive will supply the same or better speed range AND low rpm grunt power.
Have you done enough homework to see if your chosen components can provide this?
 
On the other side of the coin pretend you are an auto shop instructor. You have a car with bad spark plugs and gummed up carb the students can not get to run. Maybe it is a 69 Boss 302. Would you say to the class, OK guys, today we learn how to do an engine swap. I have a straight six we will use, the car will then be driveable. I want you guys to learn something. :nutter:
 
If you REALLY want them to learn something teach them how to trouble shoot the existing problem and source the parts to fix it. Maybe the parts can be repaired by the class as a project. Any monkey can replace parts, it takes brain power to use logic and intelligence to find a problem in a complicated system.
I hope you are not the stereotype that is: If you can not do - teach.
Teach them troubleshooting and they will be way better off, or at least show them it is possible to do it.:cheers:
 
If you REALLY want them to learn something teach them how to trouble shoot the existing problem and source the parts to fix it.
Teach them troubleshooting and they will be way better off, or at least show them it is possible to do it.:cheers:

Sounds great, except if he is the machine shop instructor the administration will not take kindly to him teaching off subject if anyone complained. Ever heard of a syllabus? And if student got electrocuted playing with a vacuum tube under the above situation he could be personally sued and the college would just walk away.
 
Sounds great, except if he is the machine shop instructor the administration will not take kindly to him teaching off subject if anyone complained. Ever heard of a syllabus? And if student got electrocuted playing with a vacuum tube under the above situation he could be personally sued and the college would just walk away.
An old boss of mine is now an instructor at the local JC and this is exactly what he does with broken equipment. Use it as a learning opportunity for the students. He sometimes brings in broken equipment so students get an idea of what to do in real life when they are exposed to that.
 
Sad, you've got a person updating an otherwise inoperable machine while teaching students a skilled trade while "experts" trash talk. It's hard enough to recruit students into this field even worse when people like you push nostalgic agenda. Sad

Nostalgia has nothing whatever to do with my viewpoint. One reason I work on a thyratron controlled lathe is that I must be one of only a few people left who worked with them when they were new. The first assignment I got when I entered the R&D business in 1955 was to build a temperature control to maintain the correct heat in the damping fluid on a hermetically sealed integrating gyro. The circuit my boss gave me had a thyratron controlling the heater. The damned thing changed firing point with ambient temperature changes and whether there was light on it. I hated it then and nothing has improved my opinion of them since. On my own I designed another control with normal vacuum tubes, which became the standard. Solid state existed then but specialized types like SCRs were not on the horizon.

We have enough spare thyratrons for the Modular I work on that we probably will never go to solid state, but if we run out, I will change.

What we keep trying to tell you is that unless you really know what you are doing, your conversion is not going to be an improvement.

A local shop had a "plant electrician" who left a trail of messes behind when he departed. He had installed VFDs on the wheel and workhead motors on a cylindrical grinder. To start a motor, you pressed the original run button, which lit the VFD, then stepped through the setting on it and used the start and stop buttons on it. When you were done, you had to remember to hit the machine stop button to turn the drive off. Repeat on the other drive. The owner complained that he had to run a seminar every time he wanted to put a man on the machine.

I added additional timers and circuitry to hold the drive on during the braking cycle and ran all the wires through housings or conduit. Then I set up the controls so that the operator only has the original buttons and a knob to set RPM. When it has been off for a certain length of time, it automatically shuts down. The operator can just hit stop and walk away. BTW, your 10EE has a timer with a similar function to turn off the field current after it has had time to brake.

Somewhere back there is an analysis I did on the 3hp DC motors used on the Reliance motor generator units. The designer hit all the bases, multiple windings per slot, brushes offset to make the transition from winding to winding as smooth as possible, etc., a tour de force. The only motors I have worked with that are as smooth are the servo motors that are used on CNC lead screws. I designed and wound a unique three phase magnetic amplifier to run it and had it going, but I am aging faster than the project is progressing, so I don't know if it will be finished. Magamps are also ancient technology but they have some real advantages such as tolerating stalling without damage. They just deliver the rated current and wait for you to shut them off.

Bill

P. S. I found my post about the DC motor-

I was looking at my spare 3 hp 10EE armature and did a little analysis. It has 29 slots with 87 bars on the commutator. Consequently, each slot has three bars connected to its coils. With all the wrappings and poor light where it was, I could not be sure of the exact winding configuration, but it appears to be a lap winding. The brushes are at 90 degree positions, as near as I could measure with Vernier calipers. The brushes are two bars wide so when one bar is centered on a brush, it is contacting the two on either side, lighting up all three coils in that slot. As a three bar set comes up to a brush, first 1, then 2, then 3, the the last 2, then last 1 are energized ramping the field produced in that slot up and down. Meanwhile, as the brush is coming off a set, it is bringing up the next set. The result is a smooth transition from energizing one slot to the next. With the four brushes, the coils are energized four times during a revolution, twice in each polarity since diametrically opposite brushes are + or -. Besides that, the odd number of bars, 87, means that the transition between bars by one brush is shifted by 1/2 bar from the opposite one, blending the steps even more. No wonder the motor can develop strong torque when barely turning and show no discernable cogging.

It seems like every time someone gets a 10EE, his first impulse is to rip out all that obsolete junk and put in a modern something or other. Personally, I am going to keep my DC motor. I may work up a different control system, but the odds on finding a better motor are slim or expensive.
 
Hard call to make.

The EE is different from other other toolroom lathes when it comes to precision thread and leads cutting, where as the half nuts are left engaged during the cutting cycles..metric.
Some machines use a mechanical brake or single tooth clutch on the leadscrew for example. The EE uses the DC drives dynamic braking to rapidly stop the spindle, while the leadscrew is left engaged to the gear train.
The dynamic braking works really well, allowing threading to the very bottom of a blind hole, or up to shoulders at higher speeds then half nuts can be engaged or dis engaged. Other threading such as shaving the flanks of acme threads for that nice fit.

The current replacement drive from Monarch with backgear is 7 1/2hp, and an expensive heavy duty 3phase unit that can handle the multiple start stops of toolroom threading.
If that type of threading work is not needed, perhaps the low cost VFD may work out.
 
What about AC servo retrofits? I often see used and surplus servos, but they do not get much discussion here. Macona powered his 10ee using a servo (with backgear), and it sounded like a very good solution.
How does their smoothness compare to the DC factory drives?
 
For what it's worth the 10ee in question was military surplus which was stripped to the point of if I wanted to retain the original drive I would of had to find various parts going the underlying issues was not catastrophic to the point that it would be a money pit. The 10ee that I am using for reference is a nice piece from NASA retrofitted with a baldor inverter duty motor and baldor drive. I copied it to a t. All the way to the splined shaft to retain the back gear. Doing this keeps this machine in the hands of someone able to produce parts to high accuracy. For all the arm chair quarterbacks that said I should have done this or that tell it to your boyfriends maybe they listen to your expert opinion. My post was to offer some insight on how monarch did a conversion on a NASA 10ee giving people who are in similar situations ways to awaken an otherwise 3500lb paperweight. I'm sure there are many examples where leaving the original drive is the best course. I have a 30" bed with the elsr that I intend on keeping original, now that I have another set of tubes as spares!. Teaching a student on how to retrofit a machine and adapt a back gear is not the same as putting a straight 6 in a mustang. I can assure you this. In industry the last thing you want is your tool room lathe down while you search Ebay and forums for a tube or some other 45 year old part. The adaptation of an ac drive with the appropriate motor has by far better mortality rate than 40-50-60 year old DC drives. Monarch puts ac motors in their 10ees now. For a reason. Same reason I have fuel injection in my truck. Technology advances. That's what I teach students. Stay with technology learn by taking chances. Innovate.
 








 
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