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Backgear pulley backlash

pier

Plastic
Joined
Feb 25, 2015
I am in the process of refurbishing a 1946 10ee, I have noticed that the backlash on the Backgear pulley is considerable (about +/- 3 to 4 degrees) this was measured with the Backgear engaged in reduction mode. Is this a normal value or should it be less.

In direct drive mode the backlash is a bit less.
 
I have ever bothered to check on mine, but just to make sure we understand your question. You are referring to th drive pulley/sheave on the motor gearbox - same pulley is used for both back gear and direct drive?

There are more gears involved in back gear so it is reasonable that there will be more backlash. I could take a look on mine in the next day or two if you like.
Most likely nothing to be concerned with.
Paul
 
Yes, this is the pulley wheel right on the Backgear of the motor. I am replacing the two V-belts and this is the reason that I have noticed the backlash. My concern is this:
What happens when you switch from fast forward to reverse and there is a lot of backlash, eventually it will break something inside the motor gearbox, and I am trying to prevent this from happening.
 
Doctor it hurts when I do this?
Don't do that.

Seriously though, yes you can slam between forward and rev, but why? If you have ELSR that just stops the spindle (repeatedly within a fraction of a rev) you would then manually select the reverse direction.
I'm sure there are plenty of EE's that were used for production that got slammed from fwd to rev on a regular basis and survived for a very long time, so the choice is yours.

The gears in the gearbox are all straight cut so will always have some backlash, in addition the gearbox to pulley interface came in at least 2 favors, key way drive and spline drive. If yours has a key way it is possible the key interface is worn and contributing to the situation, if that is the case you could redo the interface for some improvement, spline drive not likely and also less likely to have wear.

Paul
 
Not that I am planning to abuse the lathe by slamming from forward to reverse, I just want to compare my current pulley backlash with others in the same category and take some action if it is too much. I don't want to open up the "Backgear" box unless it is necessary.
 
Not that I am planning to abuse the lathe by slamming from forward to reverse, I just want to compare my current pulley backlash with others in the same category and take some action if it is too much. I don't want to open up the "Backgear" box unless it is necessary.

DC critter, not 3-Phase.

Unless the controls are FUBAR, one 'cannot' actually "slam it" from FWD to REV (or the opposite).

Anti-plugging relay wants the RPM to have dropped to 400 RPM or so ('base' at the motor is 690 RPM, so about 60%) before a relatively 'hard' STOP, then REV is permitted.

Not so much 'idiot proofing' as 'tired, distracted, or PANICED proofing'.

Gearboxes DO wear and CAN sustain damage, but stresses below 400 RPM must be 'within bounds', as the gearbox was also used on 5 HP and 7.5 HP DC models. Many have also lived long enough to be mated to 5 HP and 7.5 HP AC 3-P + VFD motors.

In VFD (or Solid-State DC Drives..) the 'tronics provide a similar function with a delayed ramp down (or comparable relay in the Beel/BICL).

As to 'necessary'? Far better to open the box NOW,see what is worn, broken, on-the-verge-of, get it repaired, cleaned, and refilled with the proper clean lube than to risk failure in the midst of a priority project with a tight deadline.

Bill
 
Not confident in the stated +/- 3-4 degrees of backlash at the gearbox output pulley. Measure it. Gearboxes in good condition can be compared. With the stated dimensions it's suspect however it sounds like a wing it estimate.

If you are "reconditioning" such a machine and are unwilling to see and repair the insides of the simplest single gear case the machine has, sit down and contemplate. You might be dealing with something over your head.

Less backlash in direct drive is normal, learn the internals of that gearbox.

The jack shaft bearings are usually trashed and it gets worse from there on a high mileage machine.
 
Over the weekend I was trying to open the backgear front cover to determine the reason for the large backlash, but I was not even able to remove the front pulley wheel to get access to the socket cap bolts behind. Is there any reason why the pulley does not slide out with a pulley-puller?
See attached pictures of my backgear. Any advise is welocome at this point.IMG_1924.jpgIMG_1926.jpg
 
Over the weekend I was trying to open the backgear front cover to determine the reason for the large backlash, but I was not even able to remove the front pulley wheel to get access to the socket cap bolts behind. Is there any reason why the pulley does not slide out with a pulley-puller?
See attached pictures of my backgear. Any advise is welocome at this point.View attachment 149338View attachment 149339

I am sure the advice you need is covered more than once right here on PM.

Replacements for those pulleys are not to be found in 7-11's or CVS drug stores, so best to back-off and go do that research before you prang the b***h.

Too many of the used ones out there already have a crack or other damage, and Monarch Lathe LP dasn't have the resources nor freedom of action to operate as a charity w/r supplying parts even if they wanted to do.

Bill
 
The output from the reduction box is fed through a 4 tooth dog, and it's not uncommon for the faces of the teeth to get a bit hammered from clumsy operators trying to shift in/out under power. I wouldn't worry a lot about it unless it's slipping out of engagement or clanging a whole lot when running (this can happen but a small load usually keeps the dog in engagement).
 
Thank you rkepler

I had the same thoughts, if the dog was worn down this would generate more backlash than necessary, however I still want to get the front cover off the "backgear" to have a better look at the inside and then decide what to do.

But at the moment I am still struggling in getting the pulley off, so far I am not able to move the damn thing.

Pier
 
Pier, I see three or four holes on the front of the pulley, close to the center. Are they threaded? Do they go all the way through the pulley? If they are threaded, it would be easy to make a puller. If they go all the way through it would be easy to make a "pusher" to remove the pulley. Neither method is likely to damage the pulley, unlike a big two jaw puller that pulls from the periphery of the pulley.

-Dave
 
It looks like you have a splined shaft, but not 100% positive. The pulley is a damn near perfect fit on mine but removes and installs easily (is clean). The holes are threaded to hold a retainer plate on the end which holds the pulley on. I am providing a link to where I am installing the pulley on my lathe. Feel free to rewind a bit if you want to see the back gear innards. I don't have hardly any backlash in back gear. Not bragging, just giving you info one my gearbox. It is noisy in forward, but a pleasant whir in reverse. Gears show little wear.

 
There have been several types of internal engagement on the back gear - the 4 dog system that Russ noted and the full gear/spline engagement that is in yours in the video. The spline/gear engagement should have less backlash.

II think the 4 dog arrangement is on earlier machines and they switched sometime in the modular time-frame (this is just a guess). There may be other variants as well - but I did see both of these in the the backgears I had - still have one extra and don't remember what version it is.

Paul
 
There have been several types of internal engagement on the back gear - the 4 dog system that Russ noted and the full gear/spline engagement that is in yours in the video. The spline/gear engagement should have less backlash.

Paul

Good info! I didn't realize this, but it makes sense. I just googled for an image to see the difference. The older style is like the gear selector in an outboard engine lower unit (at least in the OMC I took apart recently). It easily had 15 degrees or so of backlash with zero wear on the dogs. The 10EE, with only 4 chances to engage the gear per rev, needs to have some slop to give it a chance to fall into place easily. Otherwise you are wasting time finding the G (gear) spot :) Of course Monarch's specs were a bit tighter than OMC's allowing only a few degrees of slop.
 








 
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