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Thread: Collets on a EE

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    Default Collets on a EE

    I an wondering, to add a collet closer to my Monarch EE, which is the prefered method. I have a royal 5C lever style, but it looks like it won't work because of the MT2 splindle, True?
    Should I consider the Bison style collet nose that closes with a Key (like a standard chuck)?
    Or a sorjen with 2J collets? Is there an extention nose in a D1-3 mount so I can use the Royal lever closer? I would like to stay 5C so I don't have to buy another set of collets.
    Any help? Thanks, John JB Bergman

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    John
    The lever style closer will work if you have a D1-3 5c nose adapter to go with it. They come up on EBay from time to time or maybe someone on this board has an extra.
    Do a search and you should find a picture of the nose adapter. Click on Oragrag at the top of the forum and you can see his fine example of a nose adapter and a Royal(?) closer.
    Your spindle is #12 Jarno.

    Hal

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    There are two main systems for the 10EE (three, if you consider "Rubber-Flex"): 5C and 2J.

    5C is the traditional Cataract (Hardinge) collet. 2J is the Sjogren collet, also made by Hardinge.

    The 5C nosepiece is made by Monarch and it is hardened through and through. I believe Royal buys (or formerly bought) its 10EE nosepieces from Monarch, with which it supplied its 10EE collet closer systems.

    The 2J is supported by the Hardinge-Sjogren "Speed-Chuck", which is still made, although now by ATS Workholding. Model 2A-D3" is the usual offering in the 2J collet size for the 10EE, and the chuck is designed for 4,000 rpm.

    There is also a 5C "Speed-Chuck", and for this specific offering, also available in D1-3" CamLock for the 10EE, the nose may be conventional, 2-3/16"-10 threaded, or 4º tapered.

    With the 2-3/16"-10 threaded or the 4º tapered noses, Hardinge 5C step collets are usable, in addition to 5C collets in inch round, square and hex, and in metric round, square and hex.

    There are a lot of options, and certainly one or more of them is likely to match your requirements.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JB Bergman View Post
    I an wondering, to add a collet closer to my Monarch EE, which is the prefered method. I have a royal 5C lever style, but it looks like it won't work because of the MT2 splindle, True?
    ...
    Hi John,

    A couple of more things, beyond what Peter has already posted.

    I would think you should be able to adapt your Royal closer to work. As far back as 1940's Monarch offered a lever collet closer that was similar. Here is a thread that shows some photos and a diargam:
    http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb...ad.php?t=99714

    There was also a hand wheel draw tube that was more common. As previously mentioned, both worked with the D1-3 collet nose. The nose usually goes for $100+ on eBay.

    Donie built a very nice set-true collet chuck. Here is a link:
    http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb...d.php?t=146362

    Cal

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    Russ' combination D1-3" 5C nosepiece/step collet mount ...

    http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb...d.php?t=149695

    ... is my particular favorite.

    Where I live, Hardinge 2-3/16"-10 threaded and 4º tapered step collets appear quite frequently.

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    The Sjogren Speed Chuck has an advantage over the lever type closer if you are changing collets often. With the Sjogren, you can loosen the collet, throw the lathe into low gear, and back the collet out under power. I'd be scared to to that with a lever closer, due to the danger of getting my hand trapped in the lever linkage. I change collets often, and also face the smaller ends of mushroom-shaped parts like screws, where the collet has to come out to get the part out the rear. I like my Sjogren for that reason. If you go with the backplate style Sjogren you can machine the backplate in place and get really minimal runout even if your spindle mount isn't in the greatest condition, so long as it repeats OK. By the way, always index the camlock pins to the same holes on the spindle.

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    One type of collet not yet mentioned is the multiple jaw type - either the Jacobs RubberFlex type or the Burnerd Multisize. This type of collet has the advantage of being very wide ranged, in the case of the Burnerd 12 collets covering 1/16 to 1 1/2" range. Most also have various holding arrangements for the chuck - keyed chucks, handwheel and level all being available and having their particular advantages and disadvantages. The nice things is that they grip everything in their range with the jaws parallel, the downside is that the rear of the jaws have to be supported (in the case of the Jacobs, not so sure about the Burnerd). The Jacobs can be difficult at the bottom of their range as you're compressing the rubber between the jaw blades as much as gripping the work.

    I'd like to add that for a wide range of work no one collet set or holding method is going to work. A nose chuck and spindle drawbar in 5C is a really good starting point and (IMHO) will handle 90% of the work most folks are likely to encounter at a reasonable cost. You could tool up for the same work with 2J but at 3x the cost.

    Finally, you could be like me and buy one of everything "just in case" and then dither for hours over the best way to chuck a 5 minute job (a man with only one clock always knows what time it is).

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    "You could tool up for the same work with 2J but at 3x the cost."

    2J is competitive with 5C if one is buying good used stuff.

    A lucky buy on a Hardinge-Sjogren 2A-D3" "Speed-Chuck" would be about $150. Those ePay sellers who place $550 minimums on Sjogrens are smoking too much Humboldt County stuff.

    Used 2Js cost about what used 5Cs do.

    2Js also have round, square and hex in Imperial and metric, just as 5Cs do, but the 2J will indeed be rarer.

    As for split collets, well, that's where 5C really distances itself from 2J.

    The Pratt-Burnerd collet system is a real classy act. About the finest finished collet chuck out there, and most certainly the most expensive, too.

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    I have both 2J and 5C, and tend to use the 2J for one reason: it is more consistently accurate from collet to collet. That may sound strange, since both 2J and 5C collets are Hardinge, but the extra wall thickness of the 2J seems to make a difference for repeatability and lack of runout. It also may be the case that 5C collets just wear out sooner; I know I have seen more 5C collets that are sprung than 2J.

    However, one caution about the Sjogren chucks: check the fit to the spindle (using plastigage on the taper in three spots, then avg. the reading). I was getting terrible repeatability with my 2J chuck when I first bought it, and ended up having to remove .020 from the back to get it seated correctly. My first cut was not aligned well with the bore, but I got excellent results by putting a 1" hardened dowel in the Sjogren, and mounting it using a 1" 5C collet. I faced the back mounted like that and it came out excellent, there is .0002" of runout right at the end of a collet, and 2" out.

    -Dave

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    Nice trick Dave! I have exactly that problem with a 2J Sjogren and hadn't figured out how to fix it yet. Thanks!
    Steve

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    Quote Originally Posted by rke[pler View Post
    One type of collet not yet mentioned is the multiple jaw type - either the Jacobs RubberFlex type or the Burnerd Multisize. This type of collet has the advantage of being very wide ranged, in the case of the Burnerd 12 collets covering 1/16 to 1 1/2" range. Most also have various holding arrangements for the chuck - keyed chucks, handwheel and level all being available and having their particular advantages and disadvantages. The nice things is that they grip everything in their range with the jaws parallel, the downside is that the rear of the jaws have to be supported (in the case of the Jacobs, not so sure about the Burnerd). The Jacobs can be difficult at the bottom of their range as you're compressing the rubber between the jaw blades as much as gripping the work.

    I'd like to add that for a wide range of work no one collet set or holding method is going to work. A nose chuck and spindle drawbar in 5C is a really good starting point and (IMHO) will handle 90% of the work most folks are likely to encounter at a reasonable cost. You could tool up for the same work with 2J but at 3x the cost.

    Finally, you could be like me and buy one of everything "just in case" and then dither for hours over the best way to chuck a 5 minute job (a man with only one clock always knows what time it is).
    Yes the Burnerd type does need the work to pass pretty much right through the collet. Here's a lever op version (lousy pic):-



    No-one seems to have mentioned that it is possible to use a direct taper to taper nose adapter for 5C, though admittedly the wall thickness does get a bit skinny:-



    These are on a CVA, which has the same nose and taper as the 10EE, and using the standard 5C drawtube with an added spacer at the outer end.

    Tim


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