Considering a 10EE
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  1. #1
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    Default Considering a 10EE

    Looking to get myself into a turn key tool room lathe I found a 1962 10EE with vacuum tube system, I believe they go by the term "modular". The machine seems to be in good condition and is exceptionally clean. It came out of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory and was traded for another Monarch that was treated to a solid state upgrade. The machine is rated for 4,000 RPM, comes with 3-chucks, taper attachment (missing a piece maybe), and is currently wired for 440v 3-phase.

    The ways look to be in good condition but the inside of the v's do show some wear, not deep but maybe .003" on the inside. I felt the ball bearings under the carriage and they seem to free spin (SORTA CRUNCHY), should they be contacting the bottom half of the ways? Is the wear enough to be worried about?

    Can this machine be reconfigured to 220v 3-phase? I have searched the site and found conversions for the MG drive machines.

    Thanks,

    Marco

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    More photos.
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    More photos
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    img-6570.jpgimg-6569.jpgimg-6568.jpgimg-6567.jpg

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    Two comments and a question for the forum:

    Nice looking machine!
    Yes, it's a modular or module box drive.

    And the question: Has anyone previously seen a 10EE with three vee belts?

    David
    Last edited by old_dave; 12-17-2019 at 07:28 PM.

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    i have 45210.
    close in age to yours...

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    Quote Originally Posted by nobrakese28 View Post
    Can this machine be reconfigured to 220v 3-phase? I have searched the site and found conversions for the MG drive machines.
    yes, but i believe you will need to replace the small tube transformers on the board where the tubes mounts. i think these heat the tube filament??? you will also need to change the jumpers on the big T5 transformer. you don't need three phase, 240VAC 1-phase in will do it. i have a full set of wiring drawings for that year. if you would like a copy send me your email in a pm. this shows all the jumper settings for 240VAC.
    mark
    Last edited by everettengr; 12-18-2019 at 10:50 AM. Reason: typo

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    also, there are jumpers that need to be changed on T3 as well.
    ...and T6 and T7.
    basically, you need the wiring diagrams and need to go thru every transformer and change for 240V.

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    Quote Originally Posted by old_dave View Post
    Two comments and a question for the forum:

    Nice looking machine!
    Yes, it's a modular or modular box drive.

    And the question: Has anyone previously seen a 10EE with three vee belts?

    David
    That's funny, I thought the same thing and almost just walked outside to see if I didn't put enough belts on my '68. Man is that one clean machine, like a new car that you don't want to get dirty. Only thing you really need to worry about is how you're getting it home, if the price is reasonable. If that was a guitar, it would be called a closet queen.

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    Do you have 208 3phase available? I know someone with a few 9kva 208-480 step up transformers if you have real 208.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zap921 View Post
    That's funny, I thought the same thing and almost just walked outside to see if I didn't put enough belts on my '68.
    My 1968 Modular with GE motor has only 2 belts, so I had the same question about the number of belts.

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    I agree with most that this seems to be a well maintained or likely a "cleaned up" lathe. I'm sure a buyer can't go too far wrong for the the right price. I've taken pause however on what seems to be the white elephant in the room. What is the real condition of the lathe?

    As has been said many times here the bed ways are hardened and the bulk of the carriage / bed way wear occurs on the softer of the two materials which is the cast/ductile iron (I guess unhardened)carriage.

    So with that said when you see wear on the bed ways the wear on the mating carriage ways can only be MUCH worse.

    So looking at this picture we should be concerned about the overall wear on the bed ways and mating carriage (being much worse).

    capture.jpg

    concerned citizen Brian

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    I'll also add, some wise person in this forum once said, if you can hook your fingernail on a "lip" on the backside of the bed's front V-Way then you should probably walk away.

    With that said, a worn out 10EE is probably way more precise than most if not all low cost used lathes available out on the market.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rakort View Post
    I'll also add, some wise person in this forum once said, if you can hook your fingernail on a "lip" on the backside of the bed's front V-Way then you should probably walk away.

    With that said, a worn out 10EE is probably way more precise than most if not all low cost used lathes available out on the market.
    Your sentence strikes a better chord with me, well said!

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    Nobrakese28: That is an incredibly clean lathe..
    Your question about the under the carriage ball bearings leads to a way you can check to see if there is uneven wear.
    Those ball bearings are cheap, sealed, standard size bearings available for under $10each. so don't worry about the crunch and grind when you turn the race with a finger, they are cheap and easy to change.

    The 4 ball bearings are supposed to just touch the underside of the bed. They are called 'gib bearings' think, in the Monarch sales brochures.
    The area where a lathe's ways wear is near the center of the travel of the carriage. So with the carriage in the approximate center of it's travel, you will, I'm sure, find all the gib-gearings loose, not touching the bottom of the bed-ways.
    You can use a feeler gauge and slide the feeler in-between each Gib-Gearing and the bottom of the way. Get a reading with the feeler gauges for how much clearance is there.
    Then roll the carriage all the way towards the headstock. When the carriage is as far as it will go, spin the two gib-bearings that are closest to the headstock. They most likely will be touching the bottom of the ways, or be much closer to touching. If the bearings still spin, measure again with feeler gauges to get the clearance at the extreme left travel.
    Using the two measurements taken with the feeler gauges, subtract the smaller clearance from the greater one, and this will be the amount of wear in the center of the carraige travel. There are much more accurate ways to measure, but you only need a feeler gauge set to do it this way.
    The other method to determine if the carriage and ways are badly worn or not is to measure the clearance if any between the bottom of the carriage and the tailstock flat way. Just remove the cover holding the flat way wiper from both sides of the carriage. From the factory, there is about .008" clearance between the flat bed and the heavy carriage.
    With the wiper covers off, see if you can insert at least a .004" feeler gauge. between the flat way for the tailstock and the underside of the carriage.. There should be some clearance. On my better 10ee that I thought has very little wear, I barely had .0015" in the center, and .003" at the extreme left or right travel of the carriage.
    This amount of wear does not have any effect on MY lathe work.

    if there no clearance or if the tailstock flat way has worn into the bottom of the carriage, then this lathe will need some work to freshen up the lathe.

    However, the carraige is huge for the size of the lathe, and it takes a LOT of wear to greatly affect the use of the worn machine.

    If there is little if any sag or belly in the ways on this lathe, you found a nice one, If there is a lot of wear, it is an indication of a lot of hours on the other machine components,so look carefully?
    One other indication is to look from each side of the apron, at the feed rod where it goes into and out of the bottom of the apron. if the carriage and apron have dropped down from wear, the feed rod will be riding at the top of it's bore in the apron's 'pocket' holding the feed worm gear. There will be no clearance at the top of the bore, and a noticeable gap at the bottom of the opening.

    This lathe appears to have every original accessory still with it, and all in great shape.. Almost a time-capsule.

    Keep us informed on your purchase, or if you pass.

    Being nosey: the price? you can email or PM the price if you wish. But a quick look at Ebay's 'sold prices' pages will help with pricing.

    Best of luck with your inspection, It is a nice looking machine.

    DualValve
    Last edited by DualValve; 12-18-2019 at 10:41 AM.

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    Hey guys, thank you for the advice. I have 240v 3-phase in my shop via a 20hp phase converter.

    Dualvalve, thank you for the detailed description in what to look for. I will take a set of gages to the dealer and do some poking around. Any idea what a 10ee of this vintage is worth? The asking price is about $5000.

    Would the only repair be to have they bed reground and saddle built up with turcite? I know that is typically in the $5,000-10,000 range from I have seen.

    Thanks,

    Marco

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    Quote Originally Posted by nobrakese28 View Post
    Any idea what a 10ee of this vintage is worth?

    The asking price is about $5000.
    For any vintage, it depends so much on condition and tooling. I don't know where you are in CA or how far you are willing to go to inspect and haul a machine.

    This machine, at that price, is a tough call. Parts of that machine look great, other parts give me pause. IMHO, $5000 is a lot more than I would pay for that machine. Maybe, with an extensive inspection, I would change my mind. It does take a long while to thoroughly inspect a 10ee, especially your first time. Checking every threading and feed gear, etc. Using a mirror or phone to look behind the apron.

    The inner way wear is substantial, but it seems inconsistent with other parts that show less wear - sharp edges on the saddle and apron. Those contradictions make me leary. Maybe the machine was used for grinding, and the wear just concentrated on the ways and saddle.

    Maybe the machine has a lot of bondo under the paint, to sharpen those edges and smooth the surfaces. Using some filler is no big deal and expected, but if it is excessive, and on edges, it will flake off in use and look awful.

    The side of the tailstock looks pretty irregular and again seems somewhat inconsistent with other parts of the machine.

    Me, I would be patient and find another machine, probably at auction. I would rather buy a machine that shows the history and use, and has not been restored or painted. If the person who did the work was selling it, and could answer every question, that would be different.

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    One thing I know about JPL is they take care of the equipment there, the machine shop is meticulous. I don't think there would be a lot bondo work on this machine, but it was more than likely painted in the past.

    Would putting an indicator on a known true shaft and traversing the length of the ways be a good way of checking for sag in the ways? What about cutting a part and checking for taper?

    Once again, thank you for the information.

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    Nobrakese28: I edited my post above for spelling and clarity. I was half asleep when I wrote it. Sorry for some of it's errors and confused content. Hopefully it reads much better now.

    While Glug's comments are dead on: the amount of wear on the few locations you posted photos of is inconsistent with the appearance of the rest of the lathe, it does raise a question mark or two..
    BUT taking photos of wear can be a fools task: some awful looking ways can actually be 'not bad' and some very nice looking surfaces can have significant wear, just smooth and not visible in a photo.

    Hands on inspection is the only way..

    I think $5K is actually reasonable for the lathe, it has about $i.5k worth of accessories with it, and they are not a pile of rusty parts that have been neglected or ignored.

    For me: if I were looking, and the distances were minimal, I think even with some fairly significant wear, I'd probably lean towards purchasing the lathe with all those accessories. [my 'wanter-meter' hits the top peg looking at this lathe and accessories ]

    I do not know your intended uses for the 10ee, as a hobbyist, with a little bit of experimenting to find the 'sweet-spots' for avoiding or compensating for any wear, you will absolutely love the machine.
    If your use is such that you need a machine that is 'right on' regardless of where or how the carriage is positioned or used, Then yes, maybe you might want to plan on a bed regrind and carriage restoration.

    My vote, as a hobbyist and light machine shop user, I think that that lathe unless it has some real surprises, is a good one..

    DualValve

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    One thing that caught my eye, is what is going on with that tailstock? I see a number of holes. Was this some sort of indicator mounting rig that has been removed...or was the quill really worn and they put in some set screws into the bore to tighten it up.?


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