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  1. #21
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    Hey guys, it will definitely be for hobby work. My main focus is woodworking but I have always loved machinery and plan to make of brass pieces for furniture, WW machinery repair, and even some pieces for an old BMW I plan on restoring. I am an engineer by trade and am fortunate enough to work with some great machinist, one of which is willing to help me inspect the machine.

    The machine is currently having a tube repaired/replaced, so as soon as it is up and running they will give me a call to stop by and run the machine. I saw a great video of a gentleman testing his beautiful Myford lathe. I plan on taking some indicators and a test bar to test the for taper and spindle camming. I'll see if I can bring a tool holder and make some actual cuts.

    Aside from the beauty and terrific engineering of the Monarch, they seem to retain there value, which is great on something that is quite expensive.

    I am very much leaning on purchasing the machine and will get back to you on the condition of the lathe.

    Aside from the ways. does it appear to be missing a piece for the taper attachment?

    Once again, thanks for the support.

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    I too can't believe how clean that lathe is, especially on the inside. Don't they use oil? Anyway, I would go out of my way to find someone that works at the plant where that lathe was and find some of the history on why it was traded in and what it's past was spent doing. For 5K (asking price) you have to know someone who knows someone that works there. Time well spent to find the facts, how long has this machine dealer had it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by nobrakese28 View Post
    One thing I know about JPL is they take care of the equipment there, the machine shop is meticulous. I don't think there would be a lot bondo work on this machine, but it was more than likely painted in the past.
    My gut sees a different story, consider it a devil's advocate. Other opinions very much appreciated. This isn't a JPL queen, it is a dealer job for sale. A lot of dealers focus mainly on looks and don't get into the important stuff, like carriage lube issues that may have caused a lot of wear. You'll see many threads here where folks documented the carriage lube system rebuild. It is often mandatory.

    Beware of dealers feeding you lines of BS. They've been known to do that. I think it is a lot like buying a used car. If the seller lies, the deal is pretty much over.

    I don't think it was painted in the past, I think it was painted very recently. I don't see any indication that the machine has made chips since it was painted. Not a one. It looks like a machine that a dealer had their guys spend time gussying up to look pretty - some of them are very good at that. That seems to have included a lot of polishing and buffing. Some dealers will even polish the ways. Is it lacking the patina that a 10ee in even a climate controlled shop would have? As DualValve mentions, photos are tricky.

    As Zap921 said, where's the oil that should be staining the interior? It should be spattered. It has not been run since the gussying. And I still think a lot of bondo was used by the dealer.

    In this photo, what's up with that apparent ridge right where the V meets the bed? It looks really significant?

    Attachment 272809

    They have painted the contact suface of the carriage bearing, and the paint shows no wear. Are they loose to avoid issues from the worn bed? How'd they get that greasy bearing clean enough to stick paint? Power wash or steam clean? If so, yikes.

    Attachment 272802

    Here's a question about 10ee wear measurement I have been curious about. Once the front V way is worn enough that the saddle is dragging hard on the flat, if you measure the wear with a saddle mounted test indicator, what are you measuring? Does it get to the point where you can't measure the V wear that way, because it is riding the front flat and not the front V?

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    I guess I'm a sucker for a nice paint job. The more I read other guy's posts and opinions, and the more I look at the images of the lathe, the more suspicious i'm becoming.

    The image with the side of the chuck visible, shows a LOT of 'pecker-marks' on the outside diameter of the chuck.. Those types of marks take a long time and lots of use to accumulate. So: a cream-puff? maybe not so much.?

    With the accumulation of marks on the chuck, where are the matching marks on the cross slide and compound ? They are pristine looking with fresh paint, and nice crisp corners on the items.

    A much closer look at the photos of the ways, enlarged as much as I could. They show more pits, like old rust pits or dents from a to of dropped materials or tool holders. This condition sort-of matches the chuck.

    BUT the all-overriding thing: Glug's comment that there are NO indications that this lathe ever turned anything or ran long enough to get some oils showing in sth usual places.. BUT no oil, no chips. nothing.

    I'm agreeing with Glug: This lathe looks like a fresh paint job done to hide some age and wear.

    Not that a nice fresh paint job is anything to not like, it depends on if the paint job was done to hide or to just dress up.

    feelergaugeundersaddle.jpg

    In the image is how and where to use a feeler gauge to see if the carriage has worn enough to have it touch the tailstock flat-way.

    DualValve

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    Quote Originally Posted by DualValve View Post

    feelergaugeundersaddle.jpg

    In the image is how and where to use a feeler gauge to see if the carriage has worn enough to have it touch the tailstock flat-way.

    DualValve
    There is something else to look for, here.

    - IF it has touched..

    - AND the flat way itself has a full-length wear-pattern

    - AND there is evidence it had ridden so low the surfacing feed shaft and leadscrew are dragging (you can hear this in a quiet room).

    - THEN both bed Vee ways and saddle underside are worn.
    But evenly enough the lathe may still make decent end-to-end cuts.
    My 1944 is like this.

    SWAG is it saw a wide variety of tasking during its hardest working years. Most "value for money" monkey-patch would be to leave all-else TF alone, simply shim or Moglice the carriage back to normal height, work around / compensate for lesser evils.

    - Whereas:

    - IF the flat way is worn only for PART of its travel

    - AND the surfacing feed shaft & leadscew are dragging in the same area of travel (roughly one-third in this case).

    - THEN the Vee ways are NOT evenly worn.

    And that lathe will NOT be as easy to work-around as to imperfections whilst turning over its full length of travel.

    My 1942 is like this.

    Oddly, not near the HS. CENTER of max travel, rather.
    SWAG is that it made the same medium-stickout part 3 shifts by 6 days, War Two.

    Although the '42 has the significantly lesser TOTAL wear, that the wear is more asymmetrical dictates that merely raising the carriage will not pay-back as much benefit for minimal effort. The front Vee way more urgently needs trued as well.

    Ignoring for the moment all other wear, damage, and imperfection as that front Vee way is "master of goodness". Or lack thereof.

    Front spindle bearings are even more important. If those are toast, just go and use another lathe whilst saving-up for new ones!

    2 10EE worth...

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    Guys, I think you are right about the paint job, the closer I look the more little nuisances I see. Such as "overbrush/spray" on the bearings, and paint on the motor tags. You are also right about chips, not one to be found.

    The cleanliness of the motor control recess also has me suspicious now, I couldn't imagine them using steam.

    Would checking a piece of material for taper in the headstock give a good indication of wear/health of the machine? I think checking the oil system on any machine is probably a good idea, I recently spent a week taking apart and cleaning my Bridgeport w/oil zerks, and boy I am glad I did. All of the lones were clogged with grease, the table would barely move in the x-direction, now she spins like butter.

    So far here is what I plan on checking, these may also be checks for others looking to purchase a 10ee.

    1) Feeler gauge between tops of bearings and bottoms of ways, at front, center, and rear of carriage travel.
    2) Alignment of feedscrew into apron
    3) Feeler gauge between tailstock flat way and carriage (remove felt wipe covers).
    4) Taper in stock along carriage travel
    5) Runout of spindle with chuck removed
    6) Quiet bearings throughout speed range
    7) Feeds for carriage and cross slide work properly
    8) Back gear shifts properly in and out
    9) Threading functions work


    So ultimately the lathes ability to make a good part is what should be checked correct? I think the dealer will allow me to take a test cut, so I can ask my machinist friend to bring a tool holder from one of our Kent lathes to make a few passes and measure for taper.

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  9. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by nobrakese28 View Post
    Guys, I think you are right about the paint job, the closer I look the more little nuisances I see. Such as "overbrush/spray" on the bearings, and paint on the motor tags. You are also right about chips, not one to be found.

    The cleanliness of the motor control recess also has me suspicious now, I couldn't imagine them using steam.

    Would checking a piece of material for taper in the headstock give a good indication of wear/health of the machine? I think checking the oil system on any machine is probably a good idea, I recently spent a week taking apart and cleaning my Bridgeport w/oil zerks, and boy I am glad I did. All of the lones were clogged with grease, the table would barely move in the x-direction, now she spins like butter.

    So far here is what I plan on checking, these may also be checks for others looking to purchase a 10ee.

    1) Feeler gauge between tops of bearings and bottoms of ways, at front, center, and rear of carriage travel.
    2) Alignment of feedscrew into apron
    3) Feeler gauge between tailstock flat way and carriage (remove felt wipe covers).
    4) Taper in stock along carriage travel
    5) Runout of spindle with chuck removed
    6) Quiet bearings throughout speed range
    7) Feeds for carriage and cross slide work properly
    8) Back gear shifts properly in and out
    9) Threading functions work


    So ultimately the lathes ability to make a good part is what should be checked correct? I think the dealer will allow me to take a test cut, so I can ask my machinist friend to bring a tool holder from one of our Kent lathes to make a few passes and measure for taper.
    Some -if not MOST of that is a waste of time. "Posturing", even.

    It ain't new. it WILL have wear.

    Whaddyah going to do? Leave "Sam's Club" for Costco or Target and see if the tomatoes look nicer or the donuts are fresher? Lot more 10EE in the world than ANY other lathe of its class, but they seldom flock.

    Yah meet 'em one at a time - could wait YEARS for a "better" one - if even it IS "better" - to come across your radar at all.

    The "expensive parts" hardest to work-around are motive power and spindle bearings.

    EVERYTHING, those included, is "correctible". Not always "cheap" - but not a disaster, either.

    Part of why 10EE are so beloved is that they CAN be kept operational at affordable cost, WILL still make "decent" parts, even when badly worn - so long as the Machinist is even of bare-average skill at compensating.

    Those- decent spindle bearings and some useful form among many of the known-to-work means of getting power TO them, are simply the bigger of "one chunk" budget show-stoppers.

    Or not so much, depending on yer "budget", patience and time as well as money.
    Last edited by thermite; 12-19-2019 at 08:05 PM.

  10. #28
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    The 3 belts was an effort to reduce vibration, same as on table saws. The extra belt allows the group of belts to run a little looser with out slipping. Vibration will cause a part held in a chuck and turned without tail support to be larger on the end.
    The early version of the module drive looks to be in great shape, there are 3 or 4 configurations of the, drive that can be seen in photos of the machines through the years 1960 to 1983.
    There were a lot of this era 10ee lathes used at Hanford, and other local military facilities, most have been used hard, with the original drives replaced, and multiple paint jobs.
    The wear on the inner part of the V way is too severe to be normal for the apparent wear on the rest of the machine. I believe the cause is "The bijur oil meter" for the front way is plugged, starving the carriage and the front way of oil.
    The best way to test the machine is cut a long length of metal, and mike it along its length to show the bad spots. On my heavily worn and most desirable Manufacturing model 10ee, that length test showed that, if I moved the tool post to the left side of the compound, and use one of those wide holders, this placed the cutting tool forward enough where the worst effect from bed wear is greatly reduced.
    I cant comment of machine prices, I paid 15,000, for one and found a better one for 2,500. Seems values are all over the map.

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    Quote Originally Posted by donie View Post
    The wear on the inner part of the V way is too severe to be normal for the apparent wear on the rest of the machine. I believe the cause is "The bijur oil meter" for the front way is plugged, starving the carriage and the front way of oil.
    +1 . plus... even where maintenance in general was decent, there is very little evidence that way-wipers were kept-up atall. The cover hides their condition.

    Folks didn't notice that they were allowing metal fines past to reside under the carriage and scour away at carriage and vee way for longer and longer years even BEFORE the metering orifices clogged and finally ceased delivering fresh Vactra.

    Most 10EE "we" get, now, had been "company" lathes. The hands at their handwheels did not own them, didn't consider them all that special, didn't lose a lot of sleep over maintenance - just went about dealing with other priorities.

    Too late to undo that. All we can do is fix-up and try not to be as careless on our own watch, going forward.

    The good news in that? Any 10EE decently cleaned-up, NOW - no longer run to death 3 shifts a day to help win a war - will probably outlive present owners, even if they are starting on it as teen-agers.

    None of the effort will be wasted, IOW. Onpassed to the next guardian as draws the duty, rather.


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    Observations, Comments and What to check.

    First off I am not an authority on 10EE lathes. Many members here know a lot more than I do
    Overall it looks like a nice Gov lab 10EE that the dealer cleaned up and painted. That's what dealers do.People want shiny.
    Changing over from 480 to 240 is easy just moving some jumpers
    I know the dealer that is selling the machine and I never heard anything negative about him I do know he used to do a lot of business selling to aerospace and industry around LA but that was years ago. My dealings with him when I worked in the area was good. But as I said that was years ago and the place may not even have the same owner.
    That said. Like all dealers they are in business to make money.
    The guys that work for dealers cleaning and painting machines became quite proficient at it and can make anything look nice.
    Purchasing used machine is like purchasing a used car it will have some defects and you will want to put some time into it before use.


    Observations
    Only thing I notice that is concerning is the possible worn Vee way?
    As others stated it has 3 drive belts. Never seen that on a 10 EE before. Kind of an upgrade.
    Also as others have stated it looks like something was mounted to the tail stock.
    The electrical layout in the contactor panel is different and the 1TR and 2TR timing relays seem to be motor driven timers. Never seen those before but they are likely better than the normal black case ones that always fail.

    On post 2 photo 5 i notice rust rust under on the face of the casting under the electrical cabinet door lip.
    On post 1 photo 3 is that rust on the way from under the carriage?
    Could be thay steam cleaned the lathe?
    On post 3 photo it looks like there is a ridge on the Vee way from being worn but i see on photo 4 what appears to be a ridge runs all the way to the end of the ways past the serial number so I think it may just be the photo. However the ways appear to have rust from the underside of the saddle.
    I don't see the chrome worn off from the usual knobs as you would find on a heavily used lathe.
    The electrical appears to be unmolested. A good thing.

    What to check
    Besides what you already plan on checking and the good DualValve advice I suggest the following.

    Lower the hinged plate that the Module in mounted (remove bolt upper left) and look at the condition of the electrical around the tubes.

    See if the dealer will let you open up the plate covering the motor brushes to check the commutator and brushes. Bring an inspection mirror and flashlight.

    Use a long pipe cleaner and dip the oil in the apron gearbox from the filler hole to find out if it is clean oil or if it full of muddy oil from water coolant. I have seen a couple of EE apron gearboxes that were a rusty mess from water.

    Using an inspection mirror and flashlight look around behind the apron gearbox. Take a look at the Half nuts and the apron gearbox worm gear.
    See if you can spot anything worn or damaged.

    Bring along a short piece ¼” keystock and see how it fits the worm drive shafts in different spots. The keyway in the shaft tends to get worn in use. Easy fix but it is an indication of use.

    Run the lathe with the feed speed set fast and listen to the apron gearbox for noise. Bad thrust bearings on the feed worm gear will whine. Or if the apron gearbox has a bad bearing it may be noticable.

    Lastly if they will let you run the carriage and cross feed back and forth until you see start seeing oil around the ways to check the oiling system. Do a search on this forum and you will find a lot of information and photos on the 10EE oiling. Check front Vee way oiler.

    All of the above is just to get an idea of what your getting into. It's up to you if anything found is a deal killer or not.

    If you do purchase the lathe post it and you will get some advice about moving the lathe and what you need to know about changing it over to 240 Volt. These guys are a great help.

    Good luck Marco
    Ron

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  16. #31
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    Great advice for you and a lot of it. If I may add one more thing, I too was taken back by how clean that machine looked. But reading the advice from all the others opened my eyes too. This lathe had to have been steam cleaned, there is no way that it was wiped down with soapy water and Dawn detergent to come out that cleaned in all those cracks and crevices. That would be a bad thing for sure and I would rightly ask whoever I was dealing with if the machine was steam/ pressure washed before it was painted. You'll find water if it was during your inspection, unless he's had it for a long time. I wish the best for you and hope it's as nice as it looks. FYI, a 1965 10ee, with taper, steady, follower, and several chucks just sold a week ago at an auction in PA. where a lighting factory closed down for $800. Granted the outside wasn't as pretty but they're out there. Good luck!

    Monarch EE Lathe, s/n 47245, 12-1/2 Swing x 20" BC, 8" 3-Jaw Chuck, Tool Post, Tailstock Acu-Rite Pro DRO - Price Estimate: US$ - US$

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    I have not yet removed my apron on my recently acquired 1954 Square Dial 10ee for cleaning it and the lubrication system, I therefore cannot verify this suggestion..
    I believe the Square dial machines have a cam and lever added to the feed rod setup, so that anytime the feed is spinning, it is pumping oil to the ways.. This differs from my round dial machine that requires the carriage to be run left and right to stroke the lever on the apron pump.

    PLEASE if anyone knows this to be incorrect or correct please post a reply.

    IF the Square dial machines to have a feed rod powered apron pump, then if the lathe is unde power, start it up, and set the drive up to feed, and let ti run.. If you have clearance between the gib-bearings and the bottom of the ways/bed, then put a wood or brass wedge between the saddle and the tailstock flat way [after you have checked for clearance or lack of clearance] In fact you can probably use your feeler gauges as a 'lift' or 'wedge'.. Just lift the front corner of the saddle and slide at least a .010" feeler in the gap,
    The reason for this wedge is to give some oil clearance under the front eve-way, so with the feed running you should start to see plenty of Vactra showing up midway in the saddle's see=way. Run the carriage /saddle all the way one way, and let it run for a while, then hand crank the carriage to get the middle point as close to the end of the carriage-wing/arm as possible.. you should be able to see plenty of way-oil..

    Here is the bottom of a very, very worn carraige/saddle. The hole for lubrication to the vee-way is midway in the eve. The zig-zag grooves in the way-side-surfaces come up to the oil weep hole..
    This saddle is severely worn [my opinion] see the shine in the bottom of the vee? that is from the vee wearing so much that the top met the bottom of the vee. NOTE the deep, ugly wide groove next to the center of the casting. That is the .050"+ wear from this saddle riding on the tailstock's flat way..

    partscarraige.jpg

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    [QUOTE=DualValve;3460583]Nobrakese28:

    The other method to determine if the carriage and ways are badly worn or not is to measure the clearance if any between the bottom of the carriage and the tailstock flat way. Just remove the cover holding the flat way wiper from both sides of the carriage. From the factory, there is about .008" clearance between the flat bed and the heavy carriage.
    With the wiper covers off, see if you can insert at least a .004" feeler gauge. between the flat way for the tailstock and the underside of the carriage.. There should be some clearance. On my better 10ee that I thought has very little wear, I barely had .0015" in the center, and .003" at the extreme left or right travel of the carriage.
    This amount of wear does not have any effect on MY lathe work.

    DualValve[/QUOTE

    DualValve:
    I appreciated this info and the pic posted in another posting showing where to use the feeler gauge.
    I recently purchased a 1969 10EE that originally was purchased by a research Lab within the North Carolina Research Triangle, and has been in storage for the last 10 years. There are Zero signs of wear on the bed,
    and based on the excellent appearance of the extensive tooling and various chucks etc. it would appear this lathe had very light use and was well cared for.
    So I was anxious to perform this measurement. Per the picture posted by DualValve, I removed the Carriage Flat wiper and performed the test in several carriage positions along the bed and consistently was able to insert a .018” feeler gauge. A .019” gauge would not go. I wonder what this measurement would have been on a brand new Lathe? I know it was posted that a new factory fresh lathe would have .080 - .010” clearance, but I wonder based on my lathe, with apparently a very easy life, that it would possibly be more like .018 - .020”?
    Hope this info will be of value to others, Love this Forum !!
    Kind Regards, Ken

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    I really appreciate the community support here, PM is great forum! Special thanks to dualvalve, Ron, and thermite!

    Here is a little summary from my trip today.

    Hey guys, I spent about three hours today at the machinery dealer and had a nice conversation with the owners of the company. The are very forward and to be perfectly honest this Monarch is small beans for them.

    They confirmed the machine was painted and cleaned up, but it was very clean before the painting. I spoke to Monarch and they confirmed the lathe was sold to JPL in 1962, so that all checks in. I also had a chance to speak to the employee who cleaned and painted it, I asked if steam while cleaning, he said "no, only solvent" and I have no reason not believe him. I asked him about the electrical panel and he stated that it was already that clean and he didn't do much in there. So that was good to know.

    The inspection of the machine, I tried to do everything on the list but the machine is still not under power. They tried to order a tube, but the supplier is on holiday plant closure, which had them considering upgrading to a solid-state drive. They informed me the price would go up, so we worked out a price for the machine as-is.

    The v-ways:

    I used a rag to wipe the oil from the v-surface to take better photographs and place a straight edge against the inner v, operator side. I should state all other surfaces looked great on the machine. I was able to slip a .0015” feeler gauge at the upper edge of the Vee.

    I then removed the all of the wipers from the machine and took some measurements between the flatway and carriage on the operator’s side. I measured .008” in the front of the carriage and .009” in the rear, I believe this is a good sign. From what I can see, the rear of the carriage rides the flat way, so there is no gap there.

    The ways appear to be well oiled, from what I read, the oil pump is driven by the carriage hand wheel, so as it moves back and fourth it pumps oil to the ways.

    Where exactly is the reservoir for the vee and flat ways? Is that what the indication line in the apron is? Or is that for the gearing/components inside the apron?

    I next measured the gap between the carriage bearings and bottom way as suggested:

    With carriage at rear:

    Rear bearing: zero gap
    Front bearing: .003”

    With carriage towards the headstock:

    Rear Bearing: .004”
    Front bearing: .003”

    I was not able to get into the bearings on the backside of the machine.

    Feed the feed shaft:

    The feed screw appears to be dead center in the apron, looked good from both sides.
    All of the levers seem to shift and move as they should. I took some photographs of the tubes. My plan is to purchase the solid-state replacement from Scissio Controls or Monarch after some research.

    The Motor:

    I took the best photo I could with my phone, it appears the brushes may be near the end of the life, my Yates-American lathe Louis Allis motor has a lot more brush protrusion.

    The spindle bearings and oil level:

    The spindle bearing in the back looked great but the front looked low on oil, I asked around and apparently it bleeds out. I was told its not a major deal, just keep an eye on the level.

    I tried to check the oil in the apron but could not stick anything in there because there is a brass screen.

    I spinned the chuck by hand and it feels smooth, I did hear some minor belt creek. Although my brothers Hardinge makes the same noise when spinning by hand and is dead silent when running.

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    Back of Carriage
    img-6835.jpg

    Front of Carriage:
    img-6839.jpg

    The inner V-way, front of machine.
    img-6848.jpg

    Carriage at extreme of machine, front bearing:
    img-6851.jpg

    Carriage at opposite extreme (headstock):
    Rear carriage bearing
    img-6852.jpg

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    Front carriage bearing:
    img-6853.jpg

    The tubes:
    img-6857.jpg
    img-6859.jpg

    The motor:
    img-6864.jpgimg-6864.jpg

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    The feed shaft screw, from each side:
    img-6836.jpg
    img-6837.jpg

    Bottom of tailstock:
    Note it feels great and locks great.
    img-6846.jpg

    Is this a collet chuck? What does it do?
    img-6861.jpg

    Overall of the 10ee
    img-6873.jpg

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    I'm LIKING those inspection results!

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    Me too. That pic of the inner V-Way looks good, especially compared to the first pic in this thread which made it look like it had a lot of wear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheOldCar View Post
    I'm LIKING those inspection results!
    +1 !
    What I like as well as the measurements is that there is normal dirt/swarf/stains on the lathe, hidden from normal view.
    This means to me that is it unlikely that steam or a power washer was used to clean the lathe.
    The back wall of the electronic's works compartment has 'run-down' stains on it., and the images of the feed rod show
    normal accumulations of oily dirt. The ends of the apron's worm gear housing that the feed rod goes through would certainly have been cleaned by a steam cleaner or power wash. But would most likely be missed or skipped with a solvent wash.

    So, it sure looks like a nice lathe, with the added bonus of having a nice fresh paint job.. I know it's not a usual color or shade for a Monarch 10ee, but I do like it. Sets off the polished plated wheels and handles very nicely.

    So, when does it arrive at your home or shop? :-)

    DualValve.

    Note: make sure you at the very least test the carriage lubrication system, better to plan on getting a few chips in the paint job and remove the bottom of the apron, clean out the sump, clean or replace the pump filter. Then check the function of every lubrication port onto the ways and the gears and clutches.. The checking of the ways is not too difficult, I'm not sure how to check the drip tubes for the gears and clutches.. a flexible fiber-optic borescope? or just disassemble and clean.. probably best to just do it right, clean it out, inspect for wear, and clean all the ports and oil-grooves.. clean the way-wipers or replace..
    Sort of like 'bonding' with your new lathe.. :-)

    DualValve

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