Coolant pump wiring

rimcanyon · Mar 3, 2020

My 1940 machine came with a three phase 415V 50 cycle coolant pump. Photo of motor is below. As much as I would like to keep the original pump, I don't think I can find a power supply that runs off 220V single phase to power it. I have a pump from another 10EE, but I don't know whether it is 220V. It is a Brown and Sharpe pump, but the only markings are on the pump which say No. 220, Ser. No. 45. The motor leads are numbered 1,2,3 & G, and 4 is connected to 7, 5 to 8 and 6 to 9. That's all I know about it. Photos below. There are no other labels or tags on the motor except a USAF/Hughes Aircraft property tag. Assuming it is 208V 3-phase, my next question is, can I run it from 220V single phase using a static converter? That would enable me to use the existing controls on the machine to run the pump. Ideas appreciated. Just in case you are wondering, the motor for the lathe was originally a 3-phase 415V motor (also from Howell Motors), which was replaced by a 110/220V 3HP single phase GE motor.

Dave

Cal Haines · Mar 4, 2020

rimcanyon said:
My 1940 machine came with a three phase 415V 50 cycle coolant pump. Photo of motor is below. As much as I would like to keep the original pump, I don't think I can find a power supply that runs off 220V single phase to power it. I have a pump from another 10EE, but I don't know whether it is 220V. It is a Brown and Sharpe pump, but the only markings are on the pump which say No. 220, Ser. No. 45. The motor leads are numbered 1,2,3 & G, and 4 is connected to 7, 5 to 8 and 6 to 9. That's all I know about it. Photos below. There are no other labels or tags on the motor except a USAF/Hughes Aircraft property tag. Assuming it is 208V 3-phase, my next question is, can I run it from 220V single phase using a static converter? That would enable me to use the existing controls on the machine to run the pump. Ideas appreciated. Just in case you are wondering, the motor for the lathe was originally a 3-phase 415V motor (also from Howell Motors), which was replaced by a 110/220V 3HP single phase GE motor.

Dave

Based on the connections, it's probably a standard dual-voltage, 9-wire motor, connected for high voltage:

If you've got a rotary phase converter or access to 3-phase, you probably won't hurt it by connecting to 220 3-phase. If it won't run or turns slow, then try the low voltage connection:

I would fuse it for the test, using the phase current on your existing motor as a guide, or by looking up the typical phase current for that HP motor. Better yet, a good motor shop should be able to tell you what you've got by the coil resistance, etc., and maybe test it for you to verify the voltage and winding condition.

Once you know what the right connection for 220, 3-phase is (if any) then a static converter should work OK. Many "static converters" are just motor starters with no run capacitors and leave the motor to limp along with power on two phases only after startup. If the converter that you have in mind doesn't include run capacitors, I would add them to power the third phase.

Cal

rimcanyon · Mar 4, 2020

Cal, thanks for the reply, in particular the low voltage connection wiring diagram. I will give it a try. I should pull the Howell pump and see if it has a similar wiring configuration.

I am hoping someone has done this static converter setup on their 10EE coolant pump. I think using a static converter means that the motor output is considerably derated. What I would like to know before getting started on this project is whether the motor can still drive the coolant pump load when it is running on a static converter.

Dave

Cal Haines said:
Based on the connections, it's probably a standard dual-voltage, 9-wire motor, connected for high voltage:
View attachment 280820

If you've got a rotary phase converter or access to 3-phase, you probably won't hurt it by connecting to 220 3-phase. If it won't run or turns slow, then try the low voltage connection:
View attachment 280821

I would fuse it for the test, using the phase current on your existing motor as a guide, or by looking up the typical phase current for that HP motor. Better yet, a good motor shop should be able to tell you what you've got by the coil resistance, etc., and maybe test it for you to verify the voltage and winding condition.

Once you know what the right connection for 220, 3-phase is (if any) then a static converter should work OK. Many "static converters" are just motor starters with no run capacitors and leave the motor to limp along with power on two phases only after startup. If the converter that you have in mind doesn't include run capacitors, I would add them to power the third phase.

Cal

Cal Haines · Mar 4, 2020

rimcanyon said:
...

I am hoping someone has done this static converter setup on their 10EE coolant pump. I think using a static converter means that the motor output is considerably derated. What I would like to know before getting started on this project is whether the motor can still drive the coolant pump load when it is running on a static converter.

Dave

If there's no run capacitors, I think it's derated to 66%. Properly balanced run caps will improve that.

You could test it by using a manually operated switch to temporarily connect a starting capacitor to the third phase (which is all many "static converters" do). But I would verify that the motor runs on three phase with no load first, then try starting it using the manually-switched capacitor before trying to start it under load.

The idea has been discussed here before. I found this thread (but have not read through it in detail):

Static phase converter for 10EE coolant pump

Cal

Steve in SoCal · Mar 4, 2020

My coolant pump is wired with a capacitor to run on 240 single phase and it works fine. I use Jet-A or diesel as coolant and it has a good flow. I ran the pump for over an hour to test and it wasn't too warm to touch, maybe 120F.

Steve

rke[pler · Mar 5, 2020

Steve in SoCal said:
My coolant pump is wired with a capacitor to run on 240 single phase and it works fine. I use Jet-A or diesel as coolant and it has a good flow. I ran the pump for over an hour to test and it wasn't too warm to touch, maybe 120F.

What size cap did you use?

(It was kind of embarrassing to read that linked thread - 17+ years and I still haven't run my coolant pump...)

rimcanyon · Mar 5, 2020

Steve in SoCal said:
My coolant pump is wired with a capacitor to run on 240 single phase and it works fine. I use Jet-A or diesel as coolant and it has a good flow. I ran the pump for over an hour to test and it wasn't too warm to touch, maybe 120F.

Steve

Steve, did you use a start capacitor as well as a run capacitor? J Tiers and Peter H’s final suggestion in the post linked by Cal was to leave out the start capacitor (and the potential relay), assuming the coolant pump would not have a large starting torque.

Steve in SoCal · Mar 5, 2020

Dave,

Just a cap following PeterH recommendation.

Steve

rimcanyon · Mar 5, 2020

Steve in SoCal said:
Dave,

Just a cap following PeterH recommendation.

Steve

Thanks Steve. Then that's what I will do, once I have sorted out the pump wiring.

rimcanyon · Mar 13, 2020

Have you ever seen a 10EE coolant pump mounted like this one:

Top front of pump

Top left rear of pump:

Top right rear of pump:

I assume that loosening the capscrews on the top bracket will release the pump, but I have never seen this type of mount before. The other pump I have, the Brown & Sharpe, mounts with bolts at the bottom, although the rear bolts look like they are hard to access. Monarch sure did not leave a lot of room in the pump compartment. I checked the adjacent compartments in front of the pump, no through bolts.

rimcanyon · Mar 13, 2020

The pump came out quite easily, thanks in part to the electrical installation: the motor compartment has plugs and sockets for both the Sundstrand pump and the coolant pump. Easy component R&R.

The pump motor originally had a base mount, so I am thinking that I can reuse the band mount for the B&S pump since it has a removable base and the same diameter...

I have never seen such a small electrical compartment on a motor before. I think the only way to rewire this for 220V if possible is to remove the end bell.

rimcanyon · Mar 13, 2020

Well it doesn't look good, the motor is fixed voltage. Can anyone tell me what the motor frame is called, is it a standard C face with a specific model number?

Here are some photos. If I can find a single phase motor to replace it and if the pump shop can come up with the proper shaft seal, I would be good to go.

rimcanyon · Mar 13, 2020

More pictures of the pump and seal:

The seal fits into the back of the impeller, the four tabs lock it in place. Its amazing that it is still functional. Finding a replacement may not be easy, I can find no information about Howell Motor and Pump, Howell MI. Manta says they exist, but I could not find a website.

The impeller i held on with a setscrew and is removed by threading a ½-20 bolt into the end.

Steve in SoCal · Mar 13, 2020

I am not sure the old style pumps are needed for infrequent use, a small little giant pump would be inexpensive and work fine. Are you going to use an aqueous solution or mineral based?

Steve

rimcanyon · Mar 13, 2020

Steve in SoCal said:
I am not sure the old style pumps are needed for infrequent use, a small little giant pump would be inexpensive and work fine. Are you going to use an aqueous solution or mineral based?

Steve

I'm going to use the same coolant (mineral based) that I use on the mill (Master Trim OM303).

dinotom · Mar 14, 2020

rimcanyon said:
More pictures of the pump and seal:

The seal fits into the back of the impeller, the four tabs lock it in place. Its amazing that it is still functional. Finding a replacement may not be easy, I can find no information about Howell Motor and Pump, Howell MI. Manta says they exist, but I could not find a website.

View attachment 281778

You can make that yourself with the proper thickness rubber, easily obtainable online. It's basically the same as making your own gaskets.

Steve in SoCal · Mar 14, 2020

This is a knock off of a little giant pump, it or a procon pump could be found on ebay for under 50 bucks.
https://www.northerntool.com/shop/t...2_WV6odQZ1JYb0e7TD_hQDfseUV4CmJhoCNZcQAvD_BwE

Steve

daryl bane · Mar 14, 2020

I guess I am just a big wussy. I would never run coolant on my EE. After restoring all the damage it caused in its previous life, I will never use it..ever. Pump gone, good riddance. Like taking yer Dusenberg to the Auto carwash.

Maybe setup the Fogbuster once in a coon's age, but a Spillmaster cup and a acid brush is all I use, and that is going on 20 yrs.

rimcanyon · Mar 14, 2020

If you take your Deusenberg to the carwash, at least you're using it. The only Deusenberg I knew belonged to my Dad's buddy, Flip Hatton, who stored it at the local Mercedes dealer, Stahl Motors. When Stahl Motors burned down, the Deusenberg went with it, and no insurance to cover it. Likewise, Monarch lathes are meant to be used, carefully, but coolant can still fit that description. Flip's Deusenberg chassis is still sitting in a field next to one of the Moss Landing junkyards, probably because nobody knows what it is and all that did have passed on.

I would never use water-based coolant on a 10EE, and I am not a fan of the lathehand's racers stripe, but Monarch made some nice coolant shields that help. My main concern is that the Monarch coolant pump puts out a larger volume of coolant than I need or want. So maybe I should be looking for a VFD to run the pump instead of using a static phase converter.

Steve, your link did not work. I went through all of Northern HW's pumps under $100 and did not find one that looked like a coolant pump, except a few that were 12V.

-Dave

Steve in SoCal · Mar 15, 2020

Dave,

Try this link,
https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200664790_200664790

I agree with Bill there are many good prospects on ebay, the Northern tool pump is a dead knock off of a little giant and is designed for coolant use, the NT manual does say for water only?. It is a point of reference AND it is the correct form factor

Steve

Coolant pump wiring

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