Correct bolt length to attach a 10EE to a pallet...
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  1. #1
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    Default Correct bolt length to attach a 10EE to a pallet...

    I'm in the process of acquiring a '63 10EE and I'm starting to acquire materials for a pallet. I've searched through several of the rigging posts on this forum and can't find the answer I'm looking for. Assuming I want to through bolt a 10EE to a 4x4, what's the length of ⅝-11 bolt I would need? I'm planning on counter sinking the hole so I would be bolting through 3" of material. I'm planning on using ⅝-11 grade 8 bolts based on other recommendations in this forum. I am curious though if a grade 5 bolt or grade B7 would be sufficient for the job and why they would be insufficient if not. I'm not going to be penny wise or pound foolish here but am curious why a grade 5 bolt at 70% of the strength of a grade 8 bolt would not work to attach a 3500# ish lathe to a pallet. It should probably be obvious from that statement that I'm not an engineer

    TIA,
    Karl

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    Why not just bring some ⅝” all thread and a grinder and cut it to length. You’re over-analyzing this. Just do it.

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    Agreed, overthinking it

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    Thanks guys, that's the route I'll take.

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    I am an engineer and I'm sure a single 3/8" grade 5 bolt will swing in the air a 10EE all day long. NO worries on 5/8" whatever grade you get to hold it to a pallet. I do agree 5/8 is the right size .... at least on my older round dial. It is no small task to elevate the lathe and get dunnage under it including the extra distance required to run through bolts up from the underside to secure it to said dunnage. Not sure what your plan is there. Having some 4x4 under there secured to lathe will help stabilize it for sure. There are plenty of horror stories of lathes being face planted into the dirt and virtually destroying them...even from "qualified" and "experienced" riggers.

    For my money I would be worried about picking the lathe and placing it on your trailer (presumably) at the source and picking the lathe and setting on the ground at the destination. On the trailer secure the hell out of it with HD nylon ratchet straps that won't allow it to tip and you will be fine.

    I used and other folks have used a boom type carne wrecker/tow truck to pick the lathes at the source / destination for reasonable fees.

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    I used 1/2" all thread and it worked fine and 1/2" is plenty strong enough. I used 4"x6" PT which I like better than 4"x4". I took a rough between holes measurement but made one hole in each 4"x6" a slot so I could take them pre drilled knowing they would work if I was off a little. You also need to have a recess on the bottom holes/slots for the nuts and washers. The machine still sits on those 4"x6" as I like it a little higher.

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    I have a set of 10EE hold-downs that came from Mare Island shipyard, used to secure a 10EE to a pallet. They are free for the taking, either pick up or shipping if you pay the shipping cost.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Superbowl View Post
    I used 1/2" all thread and it worked fine and 1/2" is plenty strong enough. I used 4"x6" PT which I like better than 4"x4". I took a rough between holes measurement but made one hole in each 4"x6" a slot so I could take them pre drilled knowing they would work if I was off a little. You also need to have a recess on the bottom holes/slots for the nuts and washers. The machine still sits on those 4"x6" as I like it a little higher.
    Wot he said. Go 4" X 6".

    The problem is NOT the fasteners. It is the s**t-lousy quality of "farmed" forced-growth WOOD!

    4" X 4" has too little low-grade meat to it to resist splitting. 6" wide had to be cut from at least SLIGHTLY larger trees, then also has more width even if it is just as lousy. Same again, buy twice the run length you need, Use up your Big Box one free cut per-each SKU to cut 'em in half to haul to jobsite. Same deal. They had to come out of a bigger tree, will be denser and less likely to split.

    Keep in mind that "SYP" (Southern Yellow Pine) isn't LIKE "Hemlock", "Fir" or other mystery "white wood" SYP has near-as-dammit same strength as OAK, rather.

    Again - not about the raw strength. Fasteners OR wood.
    To make damned sure it doesn't simply come APART as the fasteners stress it ever-so "locally".

    AKA do not even THINK about use of lag SCREWS, reliant on their grip in UNPREDICTABLE wood, either!

    Through BOLT it, and use stacked washers. "Fender" washer is the right size but the buggers will dimple and THAT stresses the wood's grain - AKA "zipper" - as-if it were a splitting cone.

    BTW.. I avoid Pressure-Treat. My woodburning stove gets to eat the scraps. Don' wanna DOO that with PT! Besides.. much of it is still soaking WET when you pick it up.

    SERIOUS work - simply getting the 5205 Avoir Quartet mill and 4400 Avoir Alzmetall DP from driveway apron less than 20 whole feet into the shop?

    I used a pair of 6" x 8" SYP. Didn't pre-spot the holes, BTW.

    A) Place the timber,
    B) spot with a cordless,
    C) raise the jacks a skosh,
    D) drag it out,
    E) drill with more powerful "corded".
    F) Set bolts.
    G) ANCHOR THEIR HEADS ... so they cannot fall out.
    H) Raise machine higher.
    I) Slide timber under. Don't lower the machine tool just yet.
    J) Jack or lever and shim the timber UP to meet the load instead.
    K) As and WHEN the bolts line-up just fine?. Snug 'em. Do the next
    L) Only lower the machine AFTER they are attached.

    Easier to correct ANY errors that way.

    Mind, both of mine had to be laid over 90 degrees onto one side to get under the lintel and a steel beam, then be put back to the vertical.. so it was akin to fabbing a massive hand truck, 4400 lb skates on the "legs", one and done, shortened for the second one. Attach for that was to 6-foot of 3/8" by 7 inch HRS "Ell" with bolt patterns for each machine. Wood cradle built ONTO the machine and straps & chains did the rest.

    I'd guess removing those two lard-asses to git them into my grave might have to be done by demo-ing the garage/annex?

    As if I'll be the one still giving a damn?

    Given I'm meant to be creameryated and the arshloishes buried at SEA?
    Need the Old Iron for ballast...so I don't just FLOAT when the ocean attempts to reject me y'see.

    Pragmatic, Iyam.


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    2 pc of wood bolted under the machine will only help in transport It does nothing when you lift the machine with a forklift
    You still have to lift it on the narrow base making it easy to tumble over I would at least ad some timber between these 2 pc of timber to create a wider base for the forks And without some rubber or wood between the forks and the machine it skids of the forks very easy too

    Peter

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    Quote Originally Posted by rimcanyon View Post
    I have a set of 10EE hold-downs that came from Mare Island shipyard, used to secure a 10EE to a pallet. They are free for the taking, either pick up or shipping if you pay the shipping cost.
    Do you have a picture of these, I maybe interested?

    Kevin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter from Holland View Post
    2 pc of wood bolted under the machine will only help in transport It does nothing when you lift the machine with a forklift
    You still have to lift it on the narrow base making it easy to tumble over I would at least ad some timber between these 2 pc of timber to create a wider base for the forks And without some rubber or wood between the forks and the machine it skids of the forks very easy too

    Peter
    IF.. one lifts a 10EE with a forklift? Best that the forks are ABOVE the 10EE. Used as a crane.
    Safer for the hamatuer to sling a 10EE.

    It isn't hard. Auto wrecker callout is as cheap as FL drop and recover, let alone the rental.

    Skids - "outrigger canoe" style.. are indeed for transport.. and sliding it or skating it about once inside a low-overhead shop where few FL [1]can even enter.

    Stubby 10EE is corpulant. It can roll-teakettle over arse BACKWARDS long-axis wise on even a gentle ramping ..as easily as do a face-plant.

    [1] Short-mast dually pneumatic towmotor 4K of 'nam era was able to work the rough yard, outdoors, and INSIDE a GI CONEX container. Think early shipping container .... but with a much LOWER ceiling!
    Cudda married that sweetheart, she was that nimble!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter from Holland View Post
    2 pc of wood bolted under the machine will only help in transport It does nothing when you lift the machine with a forklift
    You still have to lift it on the narrow base making it easy to tumble over I would at least ad some timber between these 2 pc of timber to create a wider base for the forks And without some rubber or wood between the forks and the machine it skids of the forks very easy too

    Peter
    I never lift a top heavy machine from the bottom with a forklift. I have seen too many disasters. The 10ee manual shows to lift using a strap around the bed. Attach that strap to the forklift forks so the lathe hangs below. That way it can't tip.

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    Any top heavy machine should be lifted from the top if you can. The skid is needed for transport stability and when low ceilings don't permit an overhead lift.
    A 4'x6' skid works well for a 10ee. I didnt see that the O.P. was going too use two rails. A 10ee has a three point bolt pattern.so a platform skid is needed. Narrow base width is the good reason to use at the least a 4' wide skid.
    Last edited by mllud22; 03-01-2021 at 04:11 AM.

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    I plan on renting a drop 6x14 10k drop trailer like this. A place locally has them for a reasonable cost. Before I read some of the rigging posts on the forum, this was my first attempt at a pallet design:
    screen-shot-2021-03-01-11.38.45.jpg


    Other than the 4x6's and ⅝-11 fasteners I've got the the materials to build the above on hand. After I pick this thing up, it's going to have to live on the pallet for a while until I get a kid out of college.

    As stated before, it's a '63 square dial with the original drive train and ELSR. The paint looks awful but the ways look to be in good shape and all the bits work like they're supposed to. Not a deal but still a good bit better than buying something new from the Far East even if it needs some serious work. I'll post pics once the deal is sealed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bsg View Post
    Do you have a picture of these, I maybe interested?

    Kevin
    The pictures are in this thread: https://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...ad-trip-381238

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    Quote Originally Posted by Superbowl View Post
    I never lift a top heavy machine from the bottom with a forklift. I have seen too many disasters. The 10ee manual shows to lift using a strap around the bed. Attach that strap to the forklift forks so the lathe hangs below. That way it can't tip.

    I am very well aware of that But none of the forkliftoperators know that
    If there is space underneeth they lift it with the forks under the machine
    I just now read he is hauling it himself

    Peter

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    Quote Originally Posted by rimcanyon View Post
    I wonder if they used something different on the headstock end, or these brackets and bolts through the base?

    I think I will pass, I'll just keep bolting the lathes down through the base......

    Thank you!

    Kevin

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    Quote Originally Posted by K. Byas View Post
    I plan on renting a drop 6x14 10k drop trailer like this. A place locally has them for a reasonable cost. Before I read some of the rigging posts on the forum, this was my first attempt at a pallet design:
    screen-shot-2021-03-01-11.38.45.jpg


    Other than the 4x6's and ⅝-11 fasteners I've got the the materials to build the above on hand. After I pick this thing up, it's going to have to live on the pallet for a while until I get a kid out of college.
    You don't really need to make a full covered skid. An 8' long 4"x6" cut in half bolted on each end works great, especially with a pallet jack which you can rent cheap or buy used on Craigslist for $100-$150. The 4' sections act like outriggers so there is no way the machine can tip over in travel. A pallet jack is very handy to slide between the outriggers to maneuver it, other machines, work benches etc. around the shop. I screwed the 4"x6" to the bed of my trailer so it could not slide. ( Top was firmly strapped down.)

    When the machine finds it's final resting place then cut one 4' piece in half and put the machine on the 2' sections. These 2' pieces of 4"x6" are much better than a skid as easier to clean under them and room to store stuff underneath.


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