The delima of two round dial EEs
Close
Login to Your Account
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 27
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Missouri
    Posts
    26
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    5
    Likes (Received)
    5

    Default The delima of two round dial EEs

    Greetings...

    I've developed this insatiable penchant for these 10EEs,
    I'm not sure if its the Art Deco styling,their reputation for tolerance, or just my simple addiction
    to old heavy war-era machinery...

    Regardless, I have the opportunity to purchase one or two of these war-era 10EEs.
    One is a '42, the other a '44. I was looking at one or the other, then thought perhaps
    a spare for parts could be an option. They do have slightly different nuances between them,
    which I thought was interesting. At first glance I assumed them to be identical war production machines,
    but the controls are slightly different.

    I would like some opinions on this matter:

    1) I can pick the one with the nicest bed, and overall least amount of wear...and leave the other one behind.

    2) I can do the same as above, but drag the other one along too, for spare parts. ( I have no idea of the MG condition on either machine. Neither are powered up. They are sold AS IS.) They both have missing parts on the taper, one has a compound, one has a tool holder, one has a broken tachometer, etc. etc. Maybe in some combination I could refurbish the parts and have a nice restorable machine. Perhaps restore the other later, or part it out.

    3) I've scoured this forum on all the powering options, and its still tempting to just pass these 10EE's up and find an old South Bend instead...hard wire it, and make chips. I'm a mechanic by trade, NOT an electrician. Although I do have a full staff of electricians available for consultation and/or assistance on powering up the Monarch. My shop is equipped with an existing 220v 3ph power via a 15hp VFD, so adapting a modern induction 7.5hp motor could be the easiest solution.

    4) Both of these machines are missing the end top cast iron covers. (I posted earlier looking for one of these, so far without luck.) It somewhat scares me they I'll never locate a complete trimmed top cover.


    I'll attach photos of each. Maybe the Monarch experts here can help me triage both machines, and offer insights beyond my drooling blindness to own a 10EE.

    THANKS !!!!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 1942-monarch-10ee.jpg   1944-monarch-10-ee.jpg  

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Arizona
    Posts
    3,511
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    755
    Likes (Received)
    462

    Default

    The first machine, the 1942, may never have had a compound. It's got a four-position turret toolpost that I don't recognize. It would be dandy second-operation machine. It also has the electric leadscrew reverse (ELSR) option, but that appears to be missing parts, so the automatic stop function that the ELSR provides will not work. Very few round-dial ELSR setups have survived intact; I suspect that there were some issues with the system.

    The second machine, the 1944, looks intact from what I can see in the photo (apart from the missing cover).

    Note that not all round-dial taper attachments (TAs) had the micrometer adjustment feature. Mine doesn't, yet the taper attachment is fully functional. If you where doing a lot of different tapers, the micrometer adjuster might be nice, but you can live without it. You'll have to provide better photos of the TAs for me to see if anything is missing. You probably don't have the TA stop rods and brackets, but that's not a show stopper.

    Don't get carried away with a VFD conversion until you find out what you have. Motor/generator machines are virtually bullet proof and a decent electrician can keep the drive system running indefinitely. The problems that they have tend to be easy to fix: loose connection, bad brushes, etc. A common problem is a failed exciter, but that's cheap and easy to fix with a solid-state rectifier (the parts are under $20).

    I good VFD conversion is neither cheap nor quick to do. One of our members, sadly now deceased, owned a commercial machine shop and had done at least three different types of drive conversions. He estimated that the cost for VFD conversion was $3000 to $10,000, depending on what you hire out:
    1944 Model EE lathe, sn 25538. Cost to update?

    What are they asking for the machines?

    Cal

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Missouri
    Posts
    26
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    5
    Likes (Received)
    5

    Default

    Cal,
    Firstly, thanks for taking the time to reply!

    The '44 to me looked to be in overall better condition in person, as well.
    Both machines were surrounded by tons of other mechanical parts, pieces, etc...
    I couldn't really get in close enough to remove covers for deep inspection.
    (Lighting was poor too)
    Both machines have 440 written on the rear electrical box, but I don't know if internally
    they are capable of 220/440 as I've seen some of them are. I need to see the motor plates, I guess.
    The VFD seems like an option, but perhaps not the best first choice. I'm open to whatever solution is
    most practical. I was thinking simplistically that a modern motor swap would be fairly inexpensive,
    especially doing most of it myself. Maybe not.
    As far as price, he is wanting $1,000 each. My choice. Maybe a little better if I take the pair.
    I'm not sure the second would be worth buying. Maybe the money could be better spent if I just focused on the '44?
    Those missing covers SCARE the hell out of me. I see a lot of people looking for them.
    I would probably already pulled the trigger one way or the other if they had covers.
    What would you do?

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Las Vegas
    Posts
    539
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    11
    Likes (Received)
    54

    Default

    personally i would offer the guy 1800 for both machines. Concentrate on getting the '44 working. It will work fine without the cover. You could use the second machine's parts to barter for the missing cover or you could part it out and make enough to pay for the whole lot. First option would be to get the MG working rather than swap motors. Those MG are really stout and reliable. the system probably has a 240 volt option but i am not sure. in any case, you would have to deal with the 440v coil in the starter contactor in the compartment behind the headstock. You could deal with that coil by getting a step up transformer or by removing the original contactor and replacing it with a modern 220v model.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Arizona
    Posts
    3,511
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    755
    Likes (Received)
    462

    Default

    I would probably take them both at that price. Have a sheetmetal shop make up tombstone-shaped covers; the won't be pretty, but will keep your fingers safe.

    If both of them can be gotten into running condition, then sell one. You'll have no problem getting $1500 or more for a working 10EE. If you have space, keep them both. The 1942 would be great to have around for simple facing and turning jobs.

    If one of them has a drive system that's beyond repair, you can always part it out. (But personally, I hate that option; someone out there wants that machine.)

    If it turns out that one of the machines has a motor generator (MG) that is beyond economical repair, the next step is to keep the DC spindle motor and put on an electronic DC motor controller. That's a fairly cheap option if the motor field control rheostat still works. In that case, you use a $200 DC motor controller to vary the armature voltage and use the rheostat to provide field weakening, just like it does in a normal MG setup.

    If you just slap an AC motor in and hook up a VFD you're not going to have the low speed power that an factory 10EE has. Hooking an AC motor up to the back gear unit is not a trivial task and takes a lot of machining, etc.

    As lectrician1 says, in most cases a 440 MG machine can be converted to 240. Here's a conversion guide: 10EE MG 440 to 220 Conversion Checklist

    Cal

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Missouri
    Posts
    26
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    5
    Likes (Received)
    5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lectrician1 View Post
    personally i would offer the guy 1800 for both machines. Concentrate on getting the '44 working. It will work fine without the cover. You could use the second machine's parts to barter for the missing cover or you could part it out and make enough to pay for the whole lot. First option would be to get the MG working rather than swap motors. Those MG are really stout and reliable. the system probably has a 240 volt option but i am not sure. in any case, you would have to deal with the 440v coil in the starter contactor in the compartment behind the headstock. You could deal with that coil by getting a step up transformer or by removing the original contactor and replacing it with a modern 220v model.
    THANKS!!
    I'm thinking along those lines too. I just wanted another opinion!
    I'll let you know hoe it ends...

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Missouri
    Posts
    26
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    5
    Likes (Received)
    5

    Default

    Cal,

    Thanks again for the reply...
    I think I can pick up both machines. I have the space and the money to do so.
    As far as the cover, perhaps I'll fabricate my own until I locate one.
    Its within my skillset...I just prefer a factory cover.

    I'll see where the offer goes, and keep you posted.
    Then we can move forward step by step.
    -Luke

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    California, Central Coast
    Posts
    2,850
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    2095
    Likes (Received)
    1051

    Default

    If the seller wont come down to 1800 for both what else can he add to the pot? Any tooling, extra chucks....
    Looks like a good deal, if they were over here I would be all over it.
    Good luck.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Ohio
    Posts
    145
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    130
    Likes (Received)
    22

    Default

    I'd offer $1500 to take both off his hands but that's just me and how I'd approach it. Gives him some room to split the difference and be where I be with the price. Missing covers and don't believe he ever stated that he saw them run, ever..

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Webster Groves, MO
    Posts
    6,884
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1704
    Likes (Received)
    3059

    Default

    Re Cal's comment about the MG machines. I maintain two 10EEs besides my own, although maintain may be a bit of a misnomer. These machines are in a job shop and get a lot of use. In more than ten years, the Modular has needed two general services, not bad for the hours of running. The MG has required exactly one service call, to wiggle a stuck brush. It just soldiers on and on.

    Bill

  11. Likes Skywalker liked this post
  12. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Webster Groves, MO
    Posts
    6,884
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1704
    Likes (Received)
    3059

    Default

    Shywalker, where in Missouri are you? I'm in Weebster Groves, the second principality west of the St. Louis city limits. If I can give any assistance, call me at 314-963-9997.

    Bill

  13. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Missouri
    Posts
    26
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    5
    Likes (Received)
    5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    Shywalker, where in Missouri are you? I'm in Weebster Groves, the second principality west of the St. Louis city limits. If I can give any assistance, call me at 314-963-9997.

    Bill
    Thanks Bill... I live out in Franklin County, but work in Eureka at Six Flags as the Lead Maintenance Mechanic.
    I know exactly where Webster is. LOL
    Im still working the deal, I'll let you know.
    -Luke

  14. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Tennessee
    Posts
    16
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    0

    Default

    The missing rear covers you need are on ebay. Not cheap but maybe you could send a offer. They've been on there for awhile.

  15. #14
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Texas
    Posts
    15
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    4
    Likes (Received)
    3

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RyanM View Post
    The missing rear covers you need are on ebay. Not cheap but maybe you could send a offer. They've been on there for awhile.
    Round dial headstock covers?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

  16. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Missouri
    Posts
    26
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    5
    Likes (Received)
    5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RyanM View Post
    The missing rear covers you need are on ebay. Not cheap but maybe you could send a offer. They've been on there for awhile.
    I seen those. The two piece doesn't look right for these machines. Those appear to be later models.

  17. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Missouri
    Posts
    26
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    5
    Likes (Received)
    5

    Default

    It's seems the owner found one cover...and the deal is getting closer!!!!

  18. Likes Zap921 liked this post
  19. #17
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Tennessee
    Posts
    16
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Skywalker View Post
    I seen those. The two piece doesn't look right for these machines. Those appear to be later models.
    Took a closer look at those and your right they appear to be square dial covers

  20. #18
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Arizona
    Posts
    3,511
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    755
    Likes (Received)
    462

    Default

    The two piece cover was for machines with a factory lever-operated collet closer; both types of machine had them. They will work just fine on a machine with a normal spindle. As far as I know, the upper cover was essentially the same for round- and square-dials. You would probably have to drill holes in the headstock for the dowel pins and tap holes for the bolts. The difference between the bottom covers is that the square-dial cover is 1/2" taller than round-dial cover and has a bigger cutout on the side. The cover could be made to work by cutting it down and a plate could be brazed in to fill in the side. Way easier than trying to fabricate a nice looking cover from scratch.

    Cal

  21. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Missouri
    Posts
    26
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    5
    Likes (Received)
    5

    Default

    Picking these monsters up this weekend.
    We finally worked out the deal. Finally...
    I'll report more after they make it home.

  22. Likes Zap921 liked this post
  23. #20
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Arizona
    Posts
    3,511
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    755
    Likes (Received)
    462

    Default

    Good to hear.

    If this is the shop that had the machines in use, you might ask if you can wander around, look in cabinets, etc., to see if there are any covers or other bits and pieces laying about. If that's a possibility, make sure that you know what the steady rest, follower rest, taper attachment bed bracket and headstock Jarno center attachment look like. Go armed with copies of the parts pictures for the accessories.

    Cal

  24. Likes 220swift, Zap921 liked this post

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •