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Differences between 2500 and 4000 RPM 10EE

SirRage

Aluminum
Joined
Sep 18, 2016
Recently acquired a 2500 RPM 10EE which doesn't have any of the original electronics and motor. Originally they were going to VFD it but never finished it. Is there any reason this unit should not be run faster than 2500? I'm not sure the differences between the two, maybe different bearings and maybe a different motor. But yeah I wanted to ask about it. Thanks!

Odds are I won't need it to run faster than 2k anyways, but I thought I would ask.
 
The 0nly differences that I know of are different pulley sizes on the spindle and backgear box and the tach
 
I think this boils down to;
1. No reason not to run 4000RPM because the spindle bearings have been proven OK on faster custom variations.
2. And 5-DC horses are more capable than 5-AC ponies so you'd be wise to use a 7.5HP AC motor and a 10HP VFD.
 
For me the difference between 2500 rpm and 4000 rpm is "whoa" and "whoa shit!". 4K is frightening even when you know everything is nicely balanced and small, horrifying with a 3 jaw even when it's a little one.
 
My 1943 10EE came from the factory with a 3HP spindle motor and a 4000 RPM spindle with flat belt drive. There are a lot of 4000 RPM round-dials out there; I'm not aware of a single one with a 5HP spindle motor.

Cal
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The base for the WiaD drive and piggyback MG drive machines are very similar and appear to have been cast using most of the same patterns. The only obvious difference between a WiaD and MG bases is the round vent under the tailstock, in the back. It's my take that the piggyback MG casting is a slightly modified version of the inline MG casting and that the WiaD is yet another minor iteration of the same basic casting. The Modular base is a complete redesign.

The square-dial spindle motor that I have is 3 HP. Drawing EE-3216 (for square-dial non-ELSR machines) lists the spindle motor as 3 HP. Obviously, a larger motor/generator would be required to power a 5 HP spindle motor.

The 1958 brochure for the WiaD drive 10EE lists both 3 and 5 HP drive motors as available. It would be interesting to see some side-by-side photos of a 3 HP motor with a 5 HP WiaD motor. Up to this point I didn't realize that 5 HP was an option on WiaD machines, but then I don't really study the tube drives.

Cal
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thermite in part . . . "Good reason to use an external MG. A stock Reliance "fireplug" - common vertical free-standing commercial predecessor of the inline before it was laid-over with mounting tabs to go into the belly of the casting would be box-tick easiest. Those were commodity items in various sizes by - ISTR 1934 if not 1932?"

I can see why an external MG, move the noisy beast elsewhere. I don't mind and I'm certainly not going to modify my machine to move the MG but it's an interesting idea. Especially as you've mentioned these could be powered by squirrels in a cage if you had enough of them. I take your meaning.

However the whole 'fireplug' bit and Reliance, and them being common threw me so I'd love to see links, photos, or anything you may have (or can point to) in this regard just out of curiosity. Also, I believe you've also mentioned they were baby elevator setups (Ward Leonard) . . . but for what, 3 story walk-ups, or freight, or?
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Inquiring minds
 
A(ny) empty-bellied 10EE shoould be sandbagged.

Top heavy all the time, dangerously so with 200-plus Avoir of low down, low down guts pulled-out.

I've had my 10EE apart - all the way. The base is more than half of the weight. I'd be comfortable with the drive removed and put into a JIC cabinet, maybe aven mounted onto the back of the lathe the way Monarch does.
 
My machine was built at $k rpm., The electronics had been cannibilazed. I adapted the gearbox to a Blackmax 5HP1750 motor drive. Using the stock 4K pulley's found low en lacking in torque for drilling. A pair of larger Monarch pulleys was found, and installed. They are almost the same size. That results in a motor speed of 1750, spindle speed of 1690 rpm. a Black max has a speed limit of about 5K rpm, you need a frequency of 140 hz for 4K. My choice was 120 hz, so 3400 rpm spindle.
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As to rewinding a motor for a higher voltage, the controlling effect is called "stacking factor", the number of turns you can fit in a space compared to the theoretical number if every turn could be perfectly even and in line with other turns. In some cases such as transformers, the advantage is to the lower voltage winding because you can use rectangular wire and make nearly perfect layers. In motor armatures you are pretty much limited to scramble, AKA random winding. In perfect layer windings, any wire size will fill the same space with the same amount of copper, the only differences will be secondary ones like the ratio of the insulation to copper area.

In the use discussed here, you could run the motor at a much higher voltage by pinning it to the middle of the voltage, 250-0-250, each side never exceeding 250 volts to ground, the controlling factor being the insulation between the coils and the armature laminations and the turn to turn insulation. You could run near twice the normal base speed and only field weaken on a smaller portion of the range. You would need current control on the armature supply to avoid slamming it with 500 volts in a start. That is one reason I like saturable reactors which are intrinsically current limiting. The common form, not rapid reset reactors like the Hendy lathes use, can be dead shorted and will only supply the programmed current, giving a softer start than the original systems, less sparking on the brushes, etc.

In my experiments I found that regulation of the field supply was critical. At the top of the speed range speed control is flaky with a small variation of load or field voltage causing speed fluctuations.

Bill
 








 
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