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ee monarch

carla

Stainless
Joined
Mar 12, 2002
Location
W. Coast, USA
thanks for setting up the monarch space, don....: )

now.....wouldn't it be wonderful if we could attract some electrical engineering person who actually understands the fine point technicalities of the various tube drive systems, and would be willing to take the time to explain them here????

cheers

carla
 
Thanks to Don for the space..and to Carla for suggesting it. Looking forward to learning more about my newly acquired 10EE.

enjoy,

Tommy
 
I Have a 1944 EE lathe with the older MG set. I have been researching converting to solid state as well. My main concern is not having enough torque at low speeds. I found an engineer at KB Electronics who sent me this letter. Tell me what you think:

begin letter..........
From: Bill Fey, Applications Engineer (ext 127)
November 20, 2001

Subject: Monarch Lathe EE

Please note the following is suggestive only based on feedback from other Monarch customers. We have had cutomers successfully use a Model KBCC-225R for the Armature (230 Vdc) and a KBIC-240DX for the field (115 Vdc). The KBIC unit can be used to achieve field weakening. Keep in mind that the motor needs to have full field voltage to develop base speed and then the field can be weakened to achieve higher rpm's. When reduction in speed is desired you must bring the field back to normal voltage and then reduce the armature voltage with the KBCC-225R. This is suggestive only, based on customer feedback.

Some items of caution that I would like to make you aware of follow:

If the KBIC unit fails (Field supply), being the seperate unit driving the field voltage, the motor could run away to hazardous speeds, if lightly loaded. We do offer an accessory that could be used as a zero voltage detect called the KBAP-240D. Basically you would use this product in External Sensing Mode, put the current selection on 2.5 amp position, and turn down the CL to the point that normal run turns the unit on. This board has a relay output that should be used to interlock the KBCC-225R off if the KBIC board fails to output. The reason I go into such explanation is because this feature is not explained in the instruction book.

An additional item is that the KBIC min speed pot should be set high enough to limit the amount of field weakening. This is necessary to make sure the motor does not exceed its maximum safe speed, or cause instability.

These products can be purchased through your local KB distributor. If you have any questions, please E-mail or call (954) 346-4900 x127

Best Regards
William A. Fey
Applications Engineer

end letter..............

Jeff
 
This is going to be a most interesting and informative section of this forum, thanks.

I've never been around an EE, only one I have seen in a shop was dead I think. Who knows I might run across one someday, and I recieved all this valuable info here to revive it.

How is the main drive motor wound, series, shunt, or series shunt.

I've had a bit of experience with series wound DC motors, was a forklift mechanic for a time. They were series wound with SCR controls.

The field weakening on these were a simple relay with an extremely low value resistor which allowed more current to pass through armature.

So Jeff, I'm not sure if your EE knew exactly what he was talking about.

What are the voltages used by the DC drive motors of an EE. I know the Motor gens have input of 240 or 480, ditto for the rectifiers. But what is this DC voltage.

Forklifts have SCR systems up to 80V, controlled by a programable card.

Anyone ever talked to Curtis about EE Monarchs?
 
I should read more closely, the engineers letter states 230V armature voltage, 115V for the fields. But if it has seperate voltage supplies for the field and armature, what's he talking about field weakening for? This must be shunt wound according to letter.

Field weakening in those forklift motors is to allow more amperage to flow at higher RPM because of the counter EMF in the field circuit doesn't allow enough current to flow. Since these are series wound the current doesn't flow through the armature either. Just reaches a limit, falls on it's face.
 
Yes, it is a shunt wound motor. I have a schematic for a '43. Here's some of the specs:

A.C motor - 4.6 hp 220/440 3ph 3450 rpm

DC Generator 230V 2.5 Kw 3450 rpm seperately excited

Belted exiter - 115V 3450 rpm

DC Drive motor 3 hp variable speed to 690 RPM by armature voltage variation - to 2400 rpm by decrease of field excitation. Shunt wound - 115V Ex. Armature voltage - 230 made by Reliance Elec. & Eng. Co.


I got that same letter from KB. I have a spare drive motor that I'm going to play around with if I ever get some time. I managed to get one of the KB reversing controls off of ebay for relatively cheap, but haven't picked up the rest of the controls.

I have a '42 M/G project lathe. I'm tempted to put it back together with the M/G, but the solid state controls are also interesting. Anyone have any thoughts on that? I can go either way on this; the wiring was pretty gutted.

I know a fellow who replaced the motor on his 10ee with a 3ph AC motor and hooked up a VFD. It was a pretty nice conversion.
 
Well, I have had a bit of a look at the posted schematic for the EE as part of the thyratron replacement project.

The circuit is fairly simple, although some of the interactions among the parts are the complex part. Also, the factory settings are dependent on tube characteristics, so as tubes age, the proper seting of the limits and the compensation will change. When new tubes were easily obtained this was not a problem, but now it will be necessary to re-setup some units. And, of course if someone has tried to re-set them without instructions, they may need it too.
That page is missing from the posted material, I asked Art to try to get the page(s) preceding the page posted as "Elect-3.gif" which should have that info.

On the posted unit:
The armature control is by phase-controlling the two C16J thyratrons. They get alternate half-cycles of the AC input through a transformer, and output full-wave rectified DC to the armature.

The voltage is changed by controlling how much of a half-cycle is let through, a longer delay before firing lets through less energy, and so lowers the voltage. An AC signal in synch with the line is provided as a firing voltage, which if uncontrolled would send it to max voltage by immediately firing the tube on each half cycle.

The speed control directly varies the delay (phase angle) in a manner similar to the way a household lamp dimmer works. The 6H6 and the 6N7 tubes control this by varying a DC bias on the thyratron grids.
The AC firing voltage in synch with the incoming line comes from the transformer connected to 73 and A25 on the schematic. Firing signal is thus the sum of the DC bias and the AC firing voltage, so if the bias is reduced, firing is later and produces a lower voltage.
The bias is partly dependent on the armature voltage. A feedback through the "max voltage" control acts to loosen the bias and raise the armature voltage if it drops, or clamp the bias down and reduce voltage if it rises.

The kicker is that there is also a current sense transformer. This varies the effective control voltage (via the compensation control) with current. The 6X5 tube is for this purpose. More current draw raises the armature voltage, by partly shutting off the 6N7 tube.
This will prevent slow-down under load as the back EMF of the armature drops off with the lower loaded-down speed. That would otherwise reduce armature voltage by reducing the load impedance.

The shunt field has no special current feedback control, it is a simpler lighter duty version of the armature controller, using the lower power 3C23 thyratrons and the 6SF5. It presumably acts as the field weakener.

The speed control is a dual type with probably a "dead zone" on each half where only one of the two elements varies as you turn it. This allows the upper range to be controlled by field weakening only, with the armature probably held constant. Correspondingly, in the rest of the range, the field is presumably constant, and only the armature current varied.

With regard to replacements, several tubes are easily replaced with solid state parts, although the SS parts might have to be wired onto tube-base type plugs to be directly installed without fuss.
The 6H6, the 6X5 and the EL1C are rectifiers/diodes, and can be replaced with solid state rectifiers directly. The circuit does not appear to depend strongly on their characteristics, because of the large resistances associated with them (tube voltage drop is less important at low current / high impedance).

The 6NO60 should be a 6 volt heater time delay relay, with NO contacts, and a 60 sec delay time. I don't know about direct replacement availability of these.
It is used to let the thyratron and other tube heaters warm up (2.5V @ 31 ampere heaters for each C16J!). You can't use the start button until this relay closes, because its contacts are in series with the start button contact.

Time delay relays (solid state) are available new these days, maybe with compatible basing (not certain of that), and should be adaptable one way or another.

I would NOT recommend bypassing the TD except in an emergency because it may lessen tube life if you draw current before complete tube warm-up *. If you do have to kludge it, count off the minute before starting up.

For the 6N7 and the 6SF5, you are stuck for the moment, as they are amplifier tubes, and are used in the servo system. Characteristics are important to maintain speed.

* The thyratrons are gas discharge tubes, not arc type tubes. Thus their emmission is dependent on the capacity of the heater cathodes. If too much current is drawn, or the tube not warmed up first, the emission material may be damaged permanently.
A mercury arc tube, such as an ignitron in a welder, has a huge overload capacity by comparison. But their drive needs are quite a bit heavier, many amps of trigger current, not just a voltage as with thyratrons.


[This message has been edited by J Tiers (edited 04-05-2002).]
 








 
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