Full tear down and Rebuild of a 10EE Round Dial - Page 10
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  1. #181
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    Just like on the generator there is a small clamp screw that holds the whole brush unit on the bell end.
    dcmotorteardown16.jpg
    I then put the entire brush unit into my ultrasonic cleaner for 30 minutes. It cleaned it right up!
    dcmotorteardown17.jpg
    It is in really good shape other than some significant spark welding on it from the previous owner running it with the brushes being completely worn out. It shouldn't affect its performance once I install new brushes. I then used a few cans of contact cleaner to clean the inside of the motor as best as possible. It's not perfect, but its good enough for me. Also, the front bell is stamped RE&E with number W70975.
    dcmotorteardown18.jpg
    It also has a G stamped into its mounting flange. I'm guessing thats another fitters mark.
    dcmotorteardown19.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrantGunderson View Post
    ...
    Moving on to the front bell end. There is an alignment mark on the brush holder and the front bell that needs to be noted so the brush unit can be reinstalled with the correct orientation.
    Attachment 332907
    You should put a mark opposite the current position of the alignment mark, or otherwise witness mark the brush holder so that it can be put back in as close to the original rotation as possible. This will make timing the brushes easier when you put everything back together.

    Cal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    You should put a mark opposite the current position of the alignment mark, or otherwise witness mark the brush holder so that it can be put back in as close to the original rotation as possible. This will make timing the brushes easier when you put everything back together.

    Cal
    With the understanding that due to great age, many prior maintenance episodes, lack-thereof as well, loose clamps, cracked carriers...they are very often in at least slightly the WRONG position.

    These need to be timed whilst running, not just with a meter, for best balance.

    "Sharpie" mark should be enuf to get one started.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    You should put a mark opposite the current position of the alignment mark, or otherwise witness mark the brush holder so that it can be put back in as close to the original rotation as possible. This will make timing the brushes easier when you put everything back together.

    Cal
    I am failing to understand how a second witness mark will add in accuracy. The single factory mark, indicates the potion in one out of 360 degrees of possible options. I feel that a second one could cause confusion and relegate that error to cause a possibility of being off by 180 degrees. Please enlighten me, if I am missing part of this concept, as I would like to pursue best practices, and I am sure there are more knowledgeable ways of doing things than want I am figuring out as I go. Thanks!



    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    With the understanding that due to great age, many prior maintenance episodes, lack-thereof as well, loose clamps, cracked carriers...they are very often in at least slightly the WRONG position.

    These need to be timed whilst running, not just with a meter, for best balance.

    "Sharpie" mark should be enuf to get one started.
    I do agree that the factory marks gets one close to ideal. I also agree there is room to fine tune things once everything is back in place and the new brushes installed. If there is a published procedure for best practices, for this, I am all ears. This lathe was clearly ran with the brushes past their limits, so I am sure some adjustments will be needed. That being said, I am a long ways from powering up at this point.

  7. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrantGunderson View Post
    I do agree that the factory marks gets one close to ideal. I also agree there is room to fine tune things once everything is back in place and the new brushes installed. If there is a published procedure for best practices, for this, I am all ears. This lathe was clearly ran with the brushes past their limits, so I am sure some adjustments will be needed. That being said, I am a long ways from powering up at this point.
    There is a (published) method wherein one applies a modest AC voltage (say 24 VAC) onto the unit ... then rotates by hand to find and mark the strongest coupling, Armature coil to Field coil.

    But.. the very PURPOSE of an adjustable brush-carrier plate is to be able to advance the physical position by just enough to compensate for the inherent delay in the rise and collapse of an electromagnetic field in the presence of the largish budget of Iron the coils enjoy the aid of.

    At operating speed, one "tunes" for minimal spark, forward direction. For both generators, main and "exciter" that is all. They are not meant to ever be run in reverse.

    For the REVERSIBLE final-drive motor, OTOH? One makes a judgement call.

    Most often, optimize for forward running, take a modest disadvantage when operated in reverse. That setting sees the brushes last longest and produces the most power at best efficiency for the highest percentage of Power On Hours.

    IF/AS/WHEN a 10EE would happen to be tasked with actually using reverse a LOT,, and moreover.. using it under about the same LOADING as to power as when run in FWD?

    One might make the "timing" compromise with less FWD bias. Or even none at all.

    I submit that is RARE. If even it exists. And tune for minimal spark, FWD running on the final-drive motor .. same as one might tune for the generators.

    FWIW.. the final-drive motor, run unloaded, will have an actual RPM well above its nameplate "base". All nameplate figures are stated when all are met. At the same time.

    EG: Full rated load @ full nominal Voltages and stated full-load current, both of Armature and Field.

    It is actually HARD for us to duplicate that loading in the field, or even partial loading of any significance.

    The motor makers had the lab and gear to simulate that loading, and calibrated instruments to observe all parameters, simultaneously.

    In the field, the one we miss the most is a dynamic dummy load to force full power running or to implement anything stable that is even close.

    Timing an unloaded motor is thus a skosh imperfect.

    Seems not by enough to matter, so we JFDI.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    There is a (published) method wherein one applies a modest AC voltage (say 24 VAC) onto the unit ... then rotates by hand to find and mark the strongest coupling, Armature coil to Field coil.

    But.. the very PURPOSE of an adjustable brush-carrier plate is to be able to advance the physical position by just enough to compensate for the inherent delay in the rise and collapse of an electromagnetic field in the presence of the largish budget of Iron the coils enjoy the aid of.

    At operating speed, one "tunes" for minimal spark, forward direction. For both generators, main and "exciter" that is all. They are not meant to ever be run in reverse.

    For the REVERSIBLE final-drive motor, OTOH? One makes a judgement call.

    Most often, optimize for forward running, take a modest disadvantage when operated in reverse. That setting sees the brushes last longest and produces the most power at best efficiency for the highest percentage of Power On Hours.

    IF/AS/WHEN a 10EE would happen to be tasked with actually using reverse a LOT,, and moreover.. using it under about the same LOADING as to power as when run in FWD?

    One might make the "timing" compromise with less FWD bias. Or even none at all.

    I submit that is RARE. If even it exists. And tune for minimal spark, FWD running on the final-drive motor .. same as one might tune for the generators.

    FWIW.. the final-drive motor, run unloaded, will have an actual RPM well above its nameplate "base". All nameplate figures are stated when all are met. At the same time.

    EG: Full rated load @ full nominal Voltages and stated full-load current, both of Armature and Field.

    It is actually HARD for us to duplicate that loading in the field, or even partial loading of any significance.

    The motor makers had the lab and gear to simulate that loading, and calibrated instruments to observe all parameters, simultaneously.

    In the field, the one we miss the most is a dynamic dummy load to force full power running or to implement anything stable that is even close.

    Timing an unloaded motor is thus a skosh imperfect.

    Seems not by enough to matter, so we JFDI.
    ok, seems best way to accomplish such a task would include the aid of a scope. Granted they are getting cheaper every year, it’s hard to justify for a single use. I haven’t touched one in 20 years, so lots of learning would need to be had. Is there a simple way the average guy can methodically determine optimum placement without the aid of a scope? We are very quickly approaching the maximum of my current understanding of electrical motors, generators and Exciters. Thanks for any insights. Especially if the average joe like me can comprehend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrantGunderson View Post
    I am failing to understand how a second witness mark will add in accuracy. The single factory mark, indicates the potion in one out of 360 degrees of possible options. I feel that a second one could cause confusion and relegate that error to cause a possibility of being off by 180 degrees. ...
    Your photo:


    makes it appear that the two marks are not in alignment. If they actually are, then great. But, any time that you're dealing with two things that are assembled in some relationship to one another, rotary or otherwise, it's good practice to add witness marks if they don't already exist.

    By the way, where (with respect to the top of the motor) did you find these marks. Because I haven't found anything like that on either of my motors.

    And by "opposite" I don't mean the other side of the motor. Both of my motors have a "brush neutral" mark, but no factory or other marks to align it with. I suggest putting a witness mark there, since it's handy to the clamp bolt.
    img14136-brush-holder-neutral.jpg


    Cal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    *snip* any time that you're dealing with two things that are assembled in some relationship to one another, rotary or otherwise, it's good practice to add witness marks if they don't already exist.

    By the way, where (with respect to the top of the motor) did you find these marks. Because I haven't found anything like that on either of my motors.
    Four large-frame Reliance, here. No marks.

    As you just illustrated. Rebuilders often do that.

    Reliance OEM had no need.

    They would have had bespoke assembly jigs - part and parcel of the handling gear to make assembly saner, easier, faster, more economical for consistent results. And Reliance, in their heyday, were VERY good at "results".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    Your photo:


    makes it appear that the two marks are not in alignment. If they actually are, then great. But, any time that you're dealing with two things that are assembled in some relationship to one another, rotary or otherwise, it's good practice to add witness marks if they don't already exist.

    By the way, where (with respect to the top of the motor) did you find these marks. Because I haven't found anything like that on either of my motors.

    And by "opposite" I don't mean the other side of the motor. Both of my motors have a "brush neutral" mark, but no factory or other marks to align it with. I suggest putting a witness mark there, since it's handy to the clamp bolt.
    img14136-brush-holder-neutral.jpg


    Cal
    Ok gotcha, I think we are on the same page. I found the mark in your image on the Brush holder on mine, but there was not mark opposite. In fact that mark you posted, is labeled as neutral on mine.
    img_3141.jpg

    Instead mine had the witness marks scribed between the brushes as indicated in the photo I posted. They are not in exact alignment, but it was also producing a lot of spark when I tested it prior to buying, so I assume the marks, are where it should have actually been according to the factory.

    The witness marks on the top of the DC motor are seen in this image.
    dcmotorteardown10.jpg
    The one set is just right of the machine label. It is a single dot with the another dot on the bell side. The marks for the other side are exactly opposite and are two dots with two corresponding dots on the bell end side.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails dcmotorteardown10.jpg  

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    I ended up borrowing a hydraulic ram from a friend today to get the rotor out of the end bell. It worked super slick! A ⅝ socket was the perfect size to use as a drift.
    dcmotorbackbellremoveal.jpg
    This motor has grease zerks on the bell ends. I think the original bearings where open, so you could routinely flush new grease in.
    Here is what the rear bearing looked like after I pressed it out of the bell end.
    dcmotorrearbearing1.jpg
    I appears that someone had the conical nut and lock washer off before. Notice how the notches on the nut are mangled. Interesting.


    I cleaned up the old grease, and low and behold, there is a fully shielded bearing in there!
    dcmotorrearbearing2.jpg

    The bearing is a MRC 309SFF, now I am no bearing expert, but with a fully shielded bearing, I dont see the point in still packing the end bell recess full of grease. That bearing still feels like new.


    On the output shaft end, it appears that someone has previously replaced that bearing as well.
    dcmotorrfrontearing.jpg

    It is also a fully shielded bearing. SKF6207 2Z. It feels ok, but could probably be refreshed. They are only $17, so I will probably order new one.





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    The insulation on all of the jumper wires, is cracking.
    dcmotorwiring1.jpg
    So I decided, to proceed with replacing all of the jumper wires, with new 10AWG machine tool wire. Cal warned me about possibly killing the motor by being too rough with the wires, so I worked with extra caution and only removed one connection at a time, to eliminate any possibility of screwing up the connections. First step when removing a wire, is to clean the contact seats. I used a contact cleaner brush, and followed that with some electrical cleaner spray. We want to make sure the new wires have good contact.
    dcmotorwiring2.jpg
    For the wire terminal rings, I am using marine grade, solder filled crimps. These are superior to any other wire crimps on the market, and its all I use these days. Where applicable I place either a heat shrink label over the top of the finished crimp, or an extra piece of black heat shrink.
    dcmotorwiring3.jpg
    Here is a shot with all of the jumper wires replaced. Note, I also added color coded heat shrink to the wires that connect to the brushes. I also used some zip ties to further secure the wires. This seems to help reduce the strain on the fragile wire leads from the coils.
    dcmotorwiring4.jpg
    With the wiring project completed, I then removed the terminal box for painting. In order to do that, I had to remove the contact block, and then used a ratcheting bit driver to get access to its mounting screws.
    dcmotorwiring5.jpg
    My plan for tomorrow is to paint the DC motor and the Exciter. At Cal's suggestion, I also ordered a Commutator Cleaning Stone and some clear electrical Insulating varnish to treat the windings with from McMastercar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrantGunderson View Post

    I also used some zip ties to further secure the wires. This seems to help reduce the strain on the fragile wire leads from the coils.
    Using Nylon ties is not a good idea. Anything with brushes produces ozone.
    Nylon is damaged by ozone according to this:
    Materials ozone resistance chart – Oxidation Technologies News
    Wire lacing with string would be a better idea. Paint the string with
    varnish to lock it in place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_CNC_guy View Post
    Using Nylon ties is not a good idea. Anything with brushes produces ozone.
    Nylon is damaged by ozone according to this:
    Materials ozone resistance chart – Oxidation Technologies News
    Wire lacing with string would be a better idea. Paint the string with
    varnish to lock it in place.
    Point. Good one. "Heat exists" as well.

    Motor "end leads" were usually NOT implemented with ordinary "machine tool wire" jacketing materials, either.

    https://www.elandcables.com/media/38...6195-cable.pdf

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    Grant
    Great job. Where do you get marine grade crimps ?

    Hal

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    Quote Originally Posted by 220swift View Post
    Grant
    Great job. Where do you get marine grade crimps ?

    Hal
    Ermm... what boatie shops call them, not necessarily a maker's nomenclature.

    Fair useful article about terminations in general here:

    Marine Wire Termination - Marine How To

    Extract:

    NOTE: There is no such thing as a “marine grade” terminal. I refer to “marine grade” only because that is what the marine retailers call them, and what most boaters know them as. Marine Grade is usually just a high quality insulated or heat shrink crimp termination. The same terminals are sold into aviation, industry and marine applications. In aviation they are often referred to as aviation grade. The difference with aviation terminals is that aviation terminals need to meet minimum standards and need to be crimped with certified tools all of which are far more expensive than the average boater is willing to pay for.
    I'm a telco & data retiree. Some of my crimp tools had eye-bleeding prices, too. So I'd call them "carrier-grade", MIL-SPEC, or Aviation grade.

    More realistically, just buy their premium-level goods from AMP ... as is sort of a habit in Telco.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Ermm... what boatie shops call them, not necessarily a maker's nomenclature.

    Fair useful article about terminations in general here:

    Marine Wire Termination - Marine How To

    Extract:



    I'm a telco & data retiree. Some of my crimp tools had eye-bleeding prices, too. So I'd call them "carrier-grade", MIL-SPEC, or Aviation grade.

    More realistically, just buy their premium-level goods from AMP ... as is sort of a habit in Telco.

    I didn't know about the ozone. Just when I was considering putting the 10ee in the spare room.
    I pulled my J16 tubes too transport the lathe home. I had to cut the ground connectors or brake the studs off. Time constraint to get it loaded. Then I couldn't find good quality terminals. I finally ordered some.
    I didn't think of aircraft or marine. Those look nice
    I think the nylon ties are to I.D which wire goes where. Some of them anyway.
    The module on mine is tied up with nylon string and varnished. The guy that tied the wires up was an artist with his knots.

    On those bearings. Motors are dirty so sealed bearings are ok. Its common practice to remove the seal facing the grease cap. You still have the seal facing the motor dust. I know the grease was hard in the grease fittings and pipes. That's 60 year old grease. Heating the n.p.t pipes with a propane torch melts the hard grease right out. Don't heat the grease fitting. Those can be replaced
    Being able to give those bearings two pumps with a grease gun once a year assures the grease is in the bearing
    That bearing that you said was previously replaced and is questionable is what sealed bearings will do. Its newer than the others

    I'm not up on the code system on bearings. I was a printer for over half of my working life. We stocked bearings . I have replaced hundreds of bearings. I don't like un-greaseable bearings for a good reason.

    You are making good progress

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    Quote Originally Posted by mllud22 View Post
    I didn't know about the ozone. Just when I was considering putting the 10ee in the spare room.
    I should move one into the downstairs study. The one where I smoke most of five packs of Pall Mall Menthol 100's a day .. better part of 50 years and counting (well it was Old Gold Straights, Chesterfield, Camels, Picayunes...Sobranie Black Russians...).

    Ozone is s'posed to coalesce the combustion nano-particulates ...or some such?

    Risky bizness.

    Not sure what would be left to kill attempted cancer cells, then?

    Nor rip COVID virus apart?

    Bugs as bite me just die.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_CNC_guy View Post
    Using Nylon ties is not a good idea. Anything with brushes produces ozone.
    Nylon is damaged by ozone according to this:
    Materials ozone resistance chart – Oxidation Technologies News
    Wire lacing with string would be a better idea. Paint the string with
    varnish to lock it in place.
    I had no idea the motors produced Ozone... learned something new. I'll see if I can source some fiberglass string.

    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Point. Good one. "Heat exists" as well.

    Motor "end leads" were usually NOT implemented with ordinary "machine tool wire" jacketing materials, either.

    https://www.elandcables.com/media/38...6195-cable.pdf
    Intersting. All of the different specialty wire types can be a very deep hole to go down. I did a quick search for Coil End Lead wire, and have not found a supplier that doesn't sell it in bulk. Seems to me, that modern machine tool wire should be adequate for this use. It's rated for the same temp, it is also designed to flex without degradation and it also has a chemical resistant insulation. Am I missing something?

    Quote Originally Posted by 220swift View Post
    Grant
    Great job. Where do you get marine grade crimps ?

    Hal
    Thanks.
    Here in Bellingham, we have a very large locally owned Hardware store called Hardware Sales, Its multiple city blocks in size and its a bit like walking inside of the McMasterCarr catalog. They specialize in everything from supplying local logging outfits, to local boat builders, to supplying all of the refineries in town. Plus most of the staff there is mostly guys that have retired from their various trades, so they know there shit. One of the old guys in the electrical section turned me on to these years ago and he called them marine grade connectors, so maybe thats slang, but they are essentially crimps that have glue filled heat shrink as well as being solder filled. You crimp them first, then heat so the heat shrink / glue seals the wire, then continue to heat until you see the solder flow. Here is a McMastercarr link: McMaster-Carr



    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Ermm... what boatie shops call them, not necessarily a maker's nomenclature.

    Fair useful article about terminations in general here:

    Marine Wire Termination - Marine How To

    Extract:



    I'm a telco & data retiree. Some of my crimp tools had eye-bleeding prices, too. So I'd call them "carrier-grade", MIL-SPEC, or Aviation grade.

    More realistically, just buy their premium-level goods from AMP ... as is sort of a habit in Telco.
    I use these ratcheting crimpers with them: Knipex Multi Crimp. They used to be cheaper if you order from Amazon.DE in stead of Amazon.com Not sure if thats still the case. Either way, they are a buy once, cry once tool, and cover every type of wire crimp I have come across outside of Data, Deutch or Weatherpack, but I have a dedicated sets for those applications anyways.
    129_electricaltools.jpg


    Quote Originally Posted by mllud22 View Post
    I didn't know about the ozone. Just when I was considering putting the 10ee in the spare room.
    I pulled my J16 tubes too transport the lathe home. I had to cut the ground connectors or brake the studs off. Time constraint to get it loaded. Then I couldn't find good quality terminals. I finally ordered some.
    I didn't think of aircraft or marine. Those look nice
    I think the nylon ties are to I.D which wire goes where. Some of them anyway.
    The module on mine is tied up with nylon string and varnished. The guy that tied the wires up was an artist with his knots.

    On those bearings. Motors are dirty so sealed bearings are ok. Its common practice to remove the seal facing the grease cap. You still have the seal facing the motor dust. I know the grease was hard in the grease fittings and pipes. That's 60 year old grease. Heating the n.p.t pipes with a propane torch melts the hard grease right out. Don't heat the grease fitting. Those can be replaced
    Being able to give those bearings two pumps with a grease gun once a year assures the grease is in the bearing
    That bearing that you said was previously replaced and is questionable is what sealed bearings will do. Its newer than the others

    I'm not up on the code system on bearings. I was a printer for over half of my working life. We stocked bearings . I have replaced hundreds of bearings. I don't like un-greaseable bearings for a good reason.

    You are making good progress
    Thanks, I am really hoping to get it mostly back together before I start back up with work for the winter... but that could be in a month or in a week. I dont know.

    I'm not sure what I will do with most of the bearings in the machine yet... it will have to be a case by case decision. I understand how being able to maintain fresh, clean grease in the bearings increases their life. But in this case, they left the shields on both sides, so pumping the bearing cap full of grease is a bit point less on this motor. I also know that contaminates are the number one killer of bearings, so it could be argued a sealed / shielded bearing may not be a bad fit for this application, especially for use in the home shop. In a production shop, it would be a no brainer to keep the grease injection system in place. I'm also a bit swayed to use sealed or shielded bearings after seeing what happened to all of the grease in the motor/generator. However on that unit I think I will have to keep the grease injections system in place as in addition to end bearings, it appears to have end bushings, that the grease system also lubes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrantGunderson View Post
    I had no idea the motors produced Ozone... learned something new. I'll see if I can source some fiberglass string.
    It is not the motor itself that produces the ozone, it is the arcing
    of the brushes. Ordinary AC motors don't generally produce ozone.

    The things that commonly produce ozone are electrical arcs,
    the corona around high voltage lines (which is also arcing), and
    ultraviolet light.

    The thyratron tubes may also produce ozone. It depends on how much
    ultraviolet escapes through the glass.

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  25. #200
    Join Date
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    Grant it sounds like I should add Hardware Sales to my bucket list.
    I'm not sure if it would be good or bad to have a nice store like that close by. I would go to buy something and end up spending the rest of the day looking.
    Do they sell on line ?

    Hal


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