Full tear down and Rebuild of a 10EE Round Dial - Page 6
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  1. #101
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    Now I can finish prepping the lathe for paint. First step after having used lacquer thinner and degreaser on the lathe is to sand down all of the surfaces that are to be painted. I hate sanding, but its a necessary evil if you want superior end results.

    So I have invested in some Festool Sanders.
    13_sanders.jpg
    Those guys are insanely powerful and made quick work of sanding. Another advantage of the Festool sanders is they have superior dust collection when attached to my dust collector, which is a really good idea as I am sure the factory paint is full of lead.

    When sanding its important to not skip grits. It is way more efficient to start with say 40 grit, and then do 60 and then do 80, then 120, 220, 320, 400, etc than it is to say go straight from 80 to 220, etc. Plus you get a better end result. For example here are some night stands I made my wife, that I progressively anded up to 1200
    14_nightstands1.jpg17_nightstands4.jpg
    Most people will say to you dont need to sand to that high of a grit, but I would disagree, with wood it brings out an almost translucent effect.

    For the lathe, I started with 40 grit to knock down as many highspots in the casting as possible, then did 60 and finally 80. By the time the top coat gets sanded (yes after it cures) I will finish sanding the lathe to a 5000 grit.

    Here it is after sanding to 80.
    18_basesanded.jpg
    Thats one ugly looking casting.

  2. #102
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    20201125_113405.jpg
    Most of these old machines were given a skin coat of filler when new. I sand down to where high spots in the filler start showing. Then stop.
    If there is still paint at that point that has stayed solid for 50 years I leave it. I then prime coat And fill as needed. Some of these castings are your worst nightmare if all the original filler is sanded off. You end up adding it back on with bondo to get a good finish.
    There are machining forums where refinishing these old machines is discussed. Also here on P M
    I use an air file anywhere I can. It keeps things flat. Dual action sanders are great for stripping paint but not as good for finish work with body fillers.

    The most important thing is to remove any poorly applied paint and oil contamination.
    You furniture finish looks great.
    My experience is more in body finishing cars.
    I'm sure your finish will look good in the end. There are various ways to get there.

    20211007_101644llllllllll.jpg

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  4. #103
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    I agree that taking it down to bare metal should be avoided, assuming that the underlying paint is sound. My base was OK, but my headstock was a mess. Here's some of the things that I went through getting my headstock filled and ready for paint: paint prep - part 2

    Cal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    I agree that taking it down to bare metal should be avoided, assuming that the underlying paint is sound. My base was OK, but my headstock was a mess. Here's some of the things that I went through getting my headstock filled and ready for paint: paint prep - part 2

    Cal
    That's a good thread Cal. Lathe looks great.

    The headstocks always take a beating. You have the basic shape but have to sculpt it in with a skin coat of filler.
    The electrical panel doors on the front of mine looked like it was parked in the wal mart parking lot.
    I stripped most finish off and gave them a skin coat of filler and air filed them down. About 2 hours per panel to primer. I bring the filler down until I see a couple high spots showing through. Stop there and prime. Anymore sanding makes more work.
    All the flat work on mine is done. Panels and end covers

  6. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by mllud22 View Post
    20201125_113405.jpg
    Most of these old machines were given a skin coat of filler when new. I sand down to where high spots in the filler start showing. Then stop.
    If there is still paint at that point that has stayed solid for 50 years I leave it. I then prime coat And fill as needed. Some of these castings are your worst nightmare if all the original filler is sanded off. You end up adding it back on with bondo to get a good finish.
    There are machining forums where refinishing these old machines is discussed. Also here on P M
    I use an air file anywhere I can. It keeps things flat. Dual action sanders are great for stripping paint but not as good for finish work with body fillers.

    The most important thing is to remove any poorly applied paint and oil contamination.
    You furniture finish looks great.
    My experience is more in body finishing cars.
    I'm sure your finish will look good in the end. There are various ways to get there.

    20211007_101644llllllllll.jpg
    That rest looks amazing. When I get to sanding the filler, I will switch over to my detail sanders. I down have an air filer, but do have a linear sander that will help, but would be better if it had more length.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    I agree that taking it down to bare metal should be avoided, assuming that the underlying paint is sound. My base was OK, but my headstock was a mess. Here's some of the things that I went through getting my headstock filled and ready for paint: paint prep - part 2

    Cal
    I agree with both of you of not taking it down to bare metal. Cal that paint link is quite helpful.

    Here is a shot of the back of the casting.. it was in better shape and more of the original factory paint stayed on. My goal with the sanding was to A, nock and loose paint off, and B, reduce as many of the more extreme high-spots, so I can then fill the low spots with body filler.
    backofcasting.jpg

    I’m using an expoy primer, then will do my body filler work (bonds unless there is something better) followed by a high-build primer, than color coat and then the top poly coats… .those are the worst of it.

    Also, I am quite aware of the dangers associated with the catalysts used in both Epoxy and Poly. I spent 7 years earning a degree in plastics engineering and we dealt with both a lot, but mostly on the composites side. Especially when used in coatings the resulting aerosol is not something to take trivial and I will be using a proper cartridge respirator… a full forced air system would be ideal, but I am not set up for that, so I will be doing my best to minimize my exposure time as well. Its also important to note the danger of skin exposure to them as well. They are sensitizers and the more you are exposed the more sensitive you may be come…. But for some people all it takes is one reaction. In school I distinctly remember a guy had a sever reaction to a Polyurethane he was mixing and it was very scary to watch. Thats all the reason why I am trying to get as much paint done as possible while the family is away.

    Now back to tapping more areas off.







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    One thing to know is that the vintage filler was lead based. So: a) be careful breathing the dust when sanding; and b) be careful what solvent you use to clean it prior to paint. Mineral spirits will dissolve the linseed oil (or whatever it was that was use as the binder) in the vintage filler.

    Cal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    One thing to know is that the vintage filler was lead based. So: a) be careful breathing the dust when sanding; and b) be careful what solvent you use to clean it prior to paint. Mineral spirits will dissolve the linseed oil (or whatever it was that was use as the binder) in the vintage filler.

    Cal
    Thanks for the info Cal. Thats a big part of the reason I used my festool sanders and dust extractor when sanding. The Festool system is actually designed to safely sand leaded paint. However I still choose to use a respirator when doing so. I dint know they used linseed oil in the original body filler. I used lacquer thinner as I had good luck with it when I did the Bridgeport, and I can report it didn't affect the factory filler on the lathe.

    I spent a good chunk of the day, making sure there was no oil left on the machine, checking all of the nooks and crannies. I used a bunch of break cleaner, when I ran out of that I used some Maxxium suspension cleaner. I then wiped everything down with denatured alcohol twice, blowing it off each time with the air compressor. So fingers crossed I didn't miss any!

    I then took my time taping off the areas that I dont want to get paint on, such as the scraped portions of the base casting, the ways, etc. I found when I did my Bridgeport that the Automotive grade tape that 3M sells works a hell of a lot better than the painters tape you get at the local hardware store. Once everything was taped, I then used a razor blade to follow the edges.
    tape1.jpg
    Its now ready for epoxy primer.
    tape2.jpg
    For the base primer coat, I am using a PPG Two part epoxy primer called Omni 170. You mix it two parts paint, one part catalyst. I am using this to seal the bare metal, prior to doing any body work. I am also hoping if there is any issues with residual oil on the machine I can spot it at this stage before getting too far along with the rest of the painting process.
    epoxyprimer.jpg
    Epoxy's are sensitizers and the more you are exposed the more likely you are to have a severe allergic reaction. So I wore a full tyvek suite, some old shoes, a hat, gloves and most importantly a good 3m Respirator with brand new organic vapor cartiges. Those cartridges are only really good for a few days, So its best to use fresh ones. The less skin you have exposed and the less time you spend around the fumes the lower and safer your exposure is going to be.

    I used my Iwata LPH80 spray gun.
    paintgun.jpg
    That gun makes a really big difference in the quality of the end project. I have been practicing with it a bit this summer, and for a painting hack like me, its made my paint projects look 10X nicer than before. Plus even my tiny Makita nailing compressor is adequate enough to keep up with it.
    compressor.jpg


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    I mixed the paint using some disposable mixing cups that mount directly on the gun. It makes clean up go way quicker.
    mixxingcup.jpg
    For the first coat I used a quart size mixing cup, not wanting to have to stop to remix part way through. That was a mistake, that cup on the gun, was just way to big to get access to most of the interior of the lathe. For the second coat I switched to a much smaller cup, and that just worked way better overall.
    epoxyprimerdone1.jpg
    epoxyprimerdone4.jpg
    epoxyprimerdone5.jpg
    epoxyprimerdone6.jpg
    One of the nice things about this epoxy primer, is that it flashes in only 15 minutes, and you then have a 3 day window to paint.

    I started to cool off quite a bit this evening, so I turned the garage heater on, and will then spray the single stage polyurethane paint for the inside of the lathe in the am. I can then start to do the body filler work on the exterior.


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    You might want to remove the build data plate before you get too far along. The rivet looking fastens are a lot like nails and come out fairly easily. I wish that I'd done that on my machine. I took the rest of the plates to a local shop and had them chrome plated, sprayed them with semi-gloss black paint and wiped the paint off the high spots before the paint could dry. They look a lot nicer than they did originally:

    img_6070gc.jpg


    Cal

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  13. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    You might want to remove the build data plate before you get too far along. The rivet looking fastens are a lot like nails and come out fairly easily. I wish that I'd done that on my machine. I took the rest of the plates to a local shop and had them chrome plated, sprayed them with semi-gloss black paint and wiped the paint off the high spots before the paint could dry. They look a lot nicer than they did originally:

    img_6070gc.jpg


    Cal
    I've tried a few times to remove it. Usually with drive screws, I can grip them with screw removal pliers and twist them out. These seem to be fully stuck. Even after tapping on the sides of the heads with a punch. I am a bit hesitant to try heat on them. I guess, I could cut a slot in them to try to twist them out that way, but if that doesn't work, I'd be stuck with them in there looking like crap. I'm open to suggestions.

    I like how you did your plates. I have been thinking about taking the rest of them and a bunch of the handles, etc down to a chrome shop to get an estimate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrantGunderson View Post
    I've tried a few times to remove it. Usually with drive screws, I can grip them with screw removal pliers and twist them out. These seem to be fully stuck. Even after tapping on the sides of the heads with a punch. I am a bit hesitant to try heat on them. I guess, I could cut a slot in them to try to twist them out that way, but if that doesn't work, I'd be stuck with them in there looking like crap. I'm open to suggestions.

    I like how you did your plates. I have been thinking about taking the rest of them and a bunch of the handles, etc down to a chrome shop to get an estimate.
    I remove plates by starting with a 1" sharpened putty knife driving it under the edge right toward the pin. That often raises the pin enough too grab hold of it and pull while turning c.c.w . The data plate is fairly thick to allow this without damage. I also have an old wood chisel that I ground to a long taper to help wedge the pins out. Only do this right next to the pin. Not from the corner , from the side
    On real thin tags take extra care.

    What I was calling an air file in an earlier post is this. I need too watch my back woods terminology.
    My favorite finish sanding tool. It shows all the highs and lows on flat surfaces. Also good on the ten ee radiused corners using it vertically.

    Read the sand scratches like milling marks in the Bridgeport

    jgdeesdgg.jpg

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  16. #112
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    you guys talk like there still are chrome platers around!!....

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    Quote Originally Posted by mllud22 View Post
    I remove plates by starting with a 1" sharpened putty knife driving it under the edge right toward the pin. That often raises the pin enough too grab hold of it and pull while turning c.c.w . The data plate is fairly thick to allow this without damage. I also have an old wood chisel that I ground to a long taper to help wedge the pins out. Only do this right next to the pin. Not from the corner , from the side
    On real thin tags take extra care.

    What I was calling an air file in an earlier post is this. I need too watch my back woods terminology.
    My favorite finish sanding tool. It shows all the highs and lows on flat surfaces. Also good on the ten ee radiused corners using it vertically.

    Read the sand scratches like milling marks in the Bridgeport

    jgdeesdgg.jpg
    I'll give the putty knife method a try today. Here is what I meant by screw removal pliers for those that are not familiar with them.
    img_2596.jpg
    The jaws are specially ground to grab the heads of screws, or in this case drive pins. They are extremely helpful for removing screws when some idiot (me before I bought good drivers) strips the heads. I first found these when I was in Japan for work, and bought a full set of them. I believe Amazon now sells them as well. They are mostly made under the Engineer brand. I think Knipex, just released their version as well.
    img_2594.jpg
    I had a feeling thats what you where talking about with an air file. I doubt my compressor could run one tho. I gotta go get my 2K primer, and more color coat at the body shop supplier today or tomorrow, so I will see what they have. Worse case, maybe the local festool guys have one of these in stock.
    sanding-block-hsk-80x400.jpg

    I dont want to spend a bunch of a tool I'll most likely only use for this project, but I do agree a long flat sanding block is the best way to go. Plus it would be nice to have some dust collection going. That festool one is only powered by elbow grease. There autobody specific stuff, is big bucks, requires their dedicated auto body dust collector and a big air compressor. So those are out of the question.


    Quote Originally Posted by pat pounden View Post
    you guys talk like there still are chrome platers around!!....
    I have been doing some research, and there is a shop 45 minutes south of me that specializes in chroming motorcycle parts. So I am going to stop in next time I am down that way to get an estimate. I am along way from being ready to do the chrome stuff tho.

  18. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrantGunderson View Post
    I'll give the putty knife method a try today.
    "For some years..." I have found it simpler and more predictable as to NOT damaging the plate(s) - to place a drill guide over a drive screw / escutcheon pin and drill it out.

    "Whatever" it gets replaced with hasn't yet ever needed attention a second time.

    As to plating? My '42 is a "brass" round-dial. I have brass plates from a parted-out '41 to convert my '44 from a "white metal" round-dial to brass as well.

    Screw the "period correct" historical accuracy. The dials are easier on the eyes.

    The light metal need not be "chromed" if plated, either. Your lathe. Your aesthetics.

    (Ducks. Waddles off. Stage left...)

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    "For some years..." I have found it simpler and more predictable as to NOT damaging the plate(s) - to place a drill guide over a drive screw / escutcheon pin and drill it out.

    As to plating? My '42 is a "brass" round-dial. I have brass plates from a parted-out '41 to convert my '44 from a "white metal" round-dial to brass as well.

    Screw the "period correct" historical accuracy. The dials are easier on the eyes.
    Thermite, that is a good idea to use a drill guide to drill out the pins. I'd love to have a set of brass plates instead of the pot metal version, but those seem to be pretty rare to find! If someone has any for sale I am interested!

    On that same note, my lathe didn't come with the factory upper and lower covers for the headstock end of the lathe. It came with a nice one piece steel cover that someone spent a bunch of time and care to make, but it's sure not as sexy looking as the factory cast covers. So I'm hopping I can find replacement covers before it comes to painting that steel cover. So I'm in the market if anyone has any for sale.

    I agree, I'm not too concerned about historical accuracy, I'm more interested at the end of the day, having a nice well running machine, that just so happens to be nice on the eyes. Kind of like my wife who lets me indulge in these activities.... but I have a feeling the nightstands I made her only got me so far. I'm going to be on the hook to do a home office remodel next summer (assuming materials have come back down to a reasonable price).

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrantGunderson View Post
    Thermite, that is a good idea to use a drill guide to drill out the pins. I'd love to have a set of brass plates instead of the pot metal version, but those seem to be pretty rare to find! If someone has any for sale I am interested!
    "Trophy shops" have been able to coat a leather baby shoe with carbonblack, apply an electroless Copper strike, and plate just about ANYTHING wanted atop it. thereafter.

    Your (ZAMAK, probably?) plates can be Nickel plated, Rhodium flashed, TiN coated, Bronzed, "antique" darkened with Livers of Sulfur, coated rainbow iridescent, or even very durably "clear-coated' over a paint colour of choice... if it rocks yer boat.




    On that same note, my lathe didn't come with the factory upper and lower covers for the headstock end of the lathe. It came with a nice one piece steel cover that someone spent a bunch of time and care to make, but it's sure not as sexy looking as the factory cast covers. So I'm hopping I can find replacement covers before it comes to painting that steel cover. So I'm in the market if anyone has any for sale.
    Lower one is not THAT hard to shop-fab a look-alike/work-alike.
    Good luck on both, but be aware that an undamaged upper HS cover is the rarest of the rare.

    I finally found one... patched together shards. With a major "oops" that still needs serious work.

    "Plan B" had been to cut-up commercial kitchen / GI mess-hall steam-kettle or stew pots to get the rounded shape with low-effort.

    If your present sheet-steel one is decent, go ahead, prep and paint it.
    It might have to serve for a longish while, yet, but will at least keep the rocks, dog-hair, ponytail, lace underwear, and beard outta the whirley-bits.




    (assuming materials have come back down to a reasonable price).
    Economist / historian hat on, now. Not happening.


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    Today was a bit slow going. The guy at the automotive paint shop, must have been a bit high on fumes when I picked up my order for the single stage poly paint for the inside of the lathe. Not only was it quite a bit lighter in color than the paint chip I had selected, but I had also asked for 50 degree activator and upon reading the technical sheets for the paint, it turns out he sold me the 60 degree activator. So I cranked the heat in the garage, and waited all morning for the outside temp to hit 50. At least it gave me a good excuse to catch up with office admin crap, and the highlight of that was invoicing for my royalties on a National Geographic book cover, I just scored.
    screen-shot-2021-09-15-10.42.24-am.jpg


    Once the outside ambient temp hit 50, I opened the garage door, set my plastic sheeting up for my paint booth and went to work.

    I used a single stage polyurethane paint for the interior of the lathe. I am using Delfleet Essential, by PPG for this. It gets mixed 6:1:1 with an activator and hardener.
    2110122599.jpg
    This should prove to be extremely durable, oil and chemical resistant and very easy to wipe down. I ended up spraying two coats, and had to wait an hour between coats VS the specified 10 minute due to the slower activator. Once the second coat was on, I let it set for an hour to get most of the fumes out, then closed the garage door, cranked the heater and went for a much needed EMTB ride.

    Here is what the inside of the lathe looks like after two coats of Poly. I think for most, that would be a very adequate paint solution for the exterior of the lathe after the proper body work is done, but I have something a bit more advanced in mind for the exterior..... hopefully, I'm not biting off too much...... we will see.
    polypainedinterior1.jpg
    polypainedinterior2.jpg
    polypainedinterior3.jpg
    The one good side to the lighter paint color for the interior, is when I am working in there there will be more light to see what I am doing.

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    The only part of the lathe that I didn't strip was the factory ID plate. I was totally stumped on getting those drive screws out as they where too rounded to grip with my screw extension pliers. In contrast the drive screws for the Westinghouse property ID tag where quite easy to remove. Mllud22 suggested that I try to pry the plate up a bit with a putty blade first. That was excellent advice.
    I used a small dead blow to tap the putty blade under each drive screw.
    nameplatermoval1.jpg
    That raised the plate about 1/16" I then taped the plate back down, leaving the drive screw proud. I then was able to grip it with my screw extraction pliers, and pull it out while rotating it counter clockwise.
    nameplatermoval2.jpg
    Unlike nails and rivets, drive screws actually have a thread on them, so you can't just pull them straight out, you need to unthread and pull.

    I then worked my way around the plate to the last drive screw.

    nameplatermoval3.jpg
    Once that was out, I was left with an oily mess.
    nameplatermoval4.jpg
    I'm going to let the lathe "bake" in the garage with the heater cranked tonight to fully cure the polyurethane paint and will start on the body work tomorrow. I plan to use Bondo body filler, unless someone has something better to suggest. For now, it's time for a beer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrantGunderson View Post
    polypainedinterior3.jpg
    The one good side to the lighter paint color for the interior, is when I am working in there there will be more light to see what I am doing.
    Being 0wned by a 10EE does sort of wear a person down.

    Working in the belly does indeed need a bit of planning.
    One must position the stepladders just so.

    Otherwise, there's no space for the Diesel-powered light towers.


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    Once that was out, I was left with an oily mess.

    That oily mess has a way of working its way under the edge of a new paint job and pealing. I call it the creeping crud. It makes ugly edges
    Removing tags is sort of like wiping your butt. You cant see that crap under there but it sure feels good too get it cleaned out.


    The light colored paint in the lower compartment looks good
    Last edited by mllud22; 10-12-2021 at 11:50 AM.

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