Getting a Monarch Series 61 Back in Service - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Sure it does, there are dozens of threads regarding excessive clutch linkage wear on Monarch lathes. Must of been the end of the world when it happened to the three model 61s all lined up just for you. Yes sir, who could argue with that. Lets see some photos!
    Wow so many experts with zero knowledge! Do not mention ability!

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by donie View Post
    Sure it does, there are dozens of threads regarding excessive clutch linkage wear on Monarch lathes. Must of been the end of the world when it happened to the three model 61s all lined up just for you. Yes sir, who could argue with that. Lets see some photos!
    ...
    Early training here .... Webster Gear / Webster Racing



    1964 Webster Special | conceptcarz.com

    Marin's Father-And-Son Contribution To Racing - Fast Cars Are $150,000 Hobby For Marvin Websters - Newspapers.com

    The old man had USAC number 76, moonlight could ask AJ about the 1976 year when Web refused to sell the number to Foyt for Indy. Went 23 times, qualified three, I think. Used to walk through the shop with George Bignotti, telling him "how much experience he had."

    4 Monarchs total, one 17" Mori-Seiki, Tree manual mill, some German man-killer lathe, Fellows 7's, involute and lead testers, Reishauer ZA, Landis cylindrical, Heald internal, Liebherr hobber, 0AC Warner-Swasey, an NC Bridgeport, vertical broach, Arter, Barber-Colman 16-36, three Indy cars stacked around the shop, a short-wheelbase roadrace one on top of the lunch room, a complete building full of Offies, and the aforementioned prototype sports-racer stuck in the back. A couple of turret lathes out in the other building used to make transducers for Raytheon. That's where his money came from. Probably some stuff I've forgotten. Back then you did short-run production on an engine lathe. Maybe a tracer, then if you had really a lot, a Sundstrand or Seneca Falls production lathe. There weren't enough Indy cars to justify that.

    There were only two of us who stayed there more than six months, Web was the meanest man on the planet during work hours, but I wanted to learn so shut up and stayed out of the way. Dues.

    I can run all of them. Particularly liked the ID grinder tho. It was directly across from the homemade water-brake dyno where he ran Offies every spring, that's why I have tinnitus. And my fave rave lime-green Monarch in the middle of the stack of lathes. We built knockoff Hewlands for the smaller cars and LG-600's for the unlimited boost Offies, and non-breaking input shafts out of Vascomax. It was a big secret then. 9310 forgings for the gears, ground teeth, involute and lead within a tenth.

    Lots of big names on the purchase orders, that's how I got one of the initial Simpson helmets, the ones that weren't sold to the public - my buddy in shipping told Bill Simpson if he wanted his gears on time .... Still have it but needs a rebuild and no one will do that

    ...

    In November spent some time in the US, ran off 1500 splined shafts, milled the locating features on a hundred or so gears, dragged a 1980 lathe outside and together with a friend moved an SL-3 100 yards down a narrow asphalt driveway on skates, around the corner, up a ramp, into the shop, and we got it levelled and running again. For fun. Not too bad for a couple of decrepit old farts.

    I never had that many Monarchs, after a few years of burning my skin off with a Pacemaker I went CNC. Back when American Tool was alive, cuz I bought it from them. New. Paying for it almost killed me. Left me with a lifelong dislike of banks.

    Webster was the beginning (almost. Built wheels and brakes for drag bikes and flat trackers before that. Mert Lawwill, Carl Ahlfeldt, Marion Owens, and others.) Then I started my own shop.

    ...
    Last edited by Cal Haines; 07-28-2020 at 07:01 PM. Reason: off topic comments removed

  3. #23
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    Damn that #76 is good looking. Cars today... blech.

    L7

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  5. #24
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    Love my Monarch. Love my Sidney. Can't go wrong with either, seeing as they're damn near twins.

    Both have lead screw reverse.

  6. #25
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    Sweet Jesus, is this section in a rough neighborhood or something ? I started this thread just over a day ago, and we've had two fights and a stabbing already.

    I thought all that non-sense was confined to General, who left the door open there ?

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    Huh, cool. I know nothing of any poisoning. Just saying.

  8. #27
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    I know a few people recommend just running the machine to do an evail, or just change the oil and run it. For me, I already have a running lathe, so I'm not under pressure. Plus I'm more mechanic in trade, than machinist, so tearing stuff down doesn't bother me too much. But also as part of my consideration is the move into my home shop, I really need to tear it down into manageable pieces, where I can work at my own pace.

    This also gives me chance to flush gear boxes, clean all mating surfaces of grit and grime, like ways, cross slide etc.

    This will not be a full machine recondition. But I will address items along the way, like clutch adjustment, linkage repair, wore out keys, excessive plays and such. A good clean and lube with no doubt a bunch of minor repairs. I'm already committed in the purchase, so why not ?

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  10. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    I know a few people recommend just running the machine to do an evail, or just change the oil and run it. For me, I already have a running lathe, so I'm not under pressure. Plus I'm more mechanic in trade, than machinist, so tearing stuff down doesn't bother me too much. But also as part of my consideration is the move into my home shop, I really need to tear it down into manageable pieces, where I can work at my own pace.

    This also gives me chance to flush gear boxes, clean all mating surfaces of grit and grime, like ways, cross slide etc.

    This will not be a full machine recondition. But I will address items along the way, like clutch adjustment, linkage repair, wore out keys, excessive plays and such. A good clean and lube with no doubt a bunch of minor repairs. I'm already committed in the purchase, so why not ?
    The only cautionary advice about the "have other lathe" I can offer is to PROTECT that as if survival-food-stash sacred!



    "At the moment" and for more than 3 year - BOTH 10EE are offline... and so is the HBX-360-BC! NONE of them for anything all that "major".

    Human nature to get involved in some PIDDLY item that isn't going to cost much, nor take long, etc, etc. and then it does. Both.

    3-offline-lathes-worth

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  12. #29
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    So a funny story. . .

    Speaking about the clutch, linkages and such. . . Leading up to, and just after purchase. I had started watching vids, reading the manuals and such. Discovered a forum member here, MrWizard, has several vids on this type. A long time member, just not an active poster. Well, he has a 3 part vid on the clutch. Disassembly here:
    Monarch Lathe Clutch Disassembly - YouTube

    In watching it, I'm thinking, damn the clutch is a baby PTO. While not familiar with Monarch, those I do know.

    I went to Vintage Machinery, and opened up the parts manual for a 61 series from 1957. Note assembly part# D65, its the whole assembly, not a single part:

    44.jpg

    Now going to parts description page, D65 is listed as Twin Disk Clutch.

    45.jpg

    This is really funny to me. I know Twin Disk. Its a company, not the number of clutch plates. Twin Disk makes a whole variety of engine driven PTO/clutches. In fact, I've built a ton of those clutches/pto's. Just so happens I had a couple examples handy at my job's shop floor. One burned up laying on the floor. Another mounted on a diesel engine pump package for a chemical/petroleum barge:

    43.jpg

    I do primarily commercial marine work. Tug boats, barges, and such. Besides PTO's, Twin Disk is real big into marine gears. A marine gear is a boat transmission. FWD, neutral, and reverse. Earlier in the year I was on an alignment job. A Twin disk marine gear bolted to the back of a Caterpillar 3512. You can see Twin Disk on the oil filter of the gear. Port main engine package, we were getting the package aligned to the wheel shaft:

    40.jpg41.jpg

  13. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    The only cautionary advice about the "have other lathe" I can offer is to PROTECT that as if survival-food-stash sacred!



    "At the moment" and for more than 3 year - BOTH 10EE are offline... and so is the HBX-360-BC! NONE of them for anything all that "major".

    Human nature to get involved in some PIDDLY item that isn't going to cost much, nor take long, etc, etc. and then it does. Both.

    3-offline-lathes-worth
    You're not wrong. I've got about a year and a half into yet a third lathe. It's almost complete. When finished I plan to sell to help finance the Monarch.

  14. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    In watching it, I'm thinking, damn the clutch is a baby PTO. While not familiar with Monarch, those I do know.
    Well. "not at all new".

    Reality is the BIGGEST EVER of machine tool builder's empires were actually small BEANS.. compared to the economic might and resources under command of.... their customers. Niles-Bement-Pond vs the entire railway industry or "The Mill" vs General Motors, Ford, and Chrysler? No contest! He with the gold makes the rules.

    Sooo. ALL the parts as COULD reasonably be "bought-in" WERE.. bought from third-party suppliers. Who were, after all, specialists, therefore EXPERT at their given speciality. Taper pins, fasteners, New Departure for ball-bearings, Timken for tapered, Bijur for metering, Stewart-Warner for tachos, a selection of major-not-minor makers of electric motors, switches, relays, contactors, connectors and wire, .. and, as mentioned, those expert in the design and manufacture of gearboxes, brakes, and clutches. Also precision leadscrews and mating nuts.

    "By this late date".. rather a LOT of those third-party makers are still active in THEIR bizness supplying NEW needs multiple decades after the old-line machine tool builders who WERE their customers, but "not only" had gone to the wall.

    So it really isn't always so hard after all. Yah just have to get your eyes off the "nameplate" and do a bit of looking around. As you have just done w/r the"PTO".

    Same process as a Purchasing Agent and a "Product", not "Design" Engineer had to do when they "productized" their R&D Department's first-ever example of any given machine tool. Or "whatever else."

    .. so they could actually SHIP more than just the one... and not go broke off waste over anything any more "proprietary-weird" unless it actually delivered a measurable advantage towards grabbing more orders away from the competition.

    Bottom line is that so long as the BED WAYS are not f**ked really, really badly, nor the EXPENSIVE spindle-bearings shot to shit, there is nothing else IN the beast as modest money... and labour ... you don't .... really...want... to ...count all that accurately...cannot fix.

    So long as the labour is still a bit of fun and pride?

    Cheaper and better for our health than drugs, booze, or whorehouses.

    So we JF do it.


  15. #32
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    My progress is a bit further along than I've had time to post about. But as we were talking about the clutch, thought I'd post that. EmanuelGoldstein was correct in that the square holes in handles are pretty wore. I'll be addressing that. Also not real relevant yet, As I was pulling the clutch assembly out anyway, but the clutch was in need of adjustment.

    I've been clearing everything attached to headstock to get it lifted off the bed. The clutch and pulley assembly were pretty straight forward. That whole assembly has to come out to remove rear aluminum cover.

    46.jpg 37.jpg 47.jpg 48.jpg

  16. #33
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    While I'm not ready for it yet, trying to plan ahead a little.

    According to the manual, they suggest using a .0005" graduated per foot level, we'll say a Starrett no 199. Which I would agree with a new or reconditioned machine.

    I have a 12" Starrett no 98. It's .005" graduated per foot. One other thing is being 12" i can just reach each flat way(Assuming I level from flat ways, not from flats between ways. Maybe 3/4 to 1" onto each way.

    Any thoughts on how critical it is to split hairs on leveling with an older un-reconditioned lathe ? I'm sure I can level inside of .005", will leveling at .0005" actually gain something I can see on the work ? .001" ? or .00001 ?

    I was toying with the idea of getting an 18" no. 98, or the 15" no 199". Or roll with the 12" no 98. No doubt opinions will vary, just curious some thoughts.

  17. #34
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    Hard to say without knowing the condition of every aspect of the lathe. I'd suggest planning on initially leveling it up with the .005"/ft level you have. Most lathes benefit from being leveled, let settle in for a month or so, and re-leveled. By that time you'll have a much better idea of whether a more accurate level will benefit. Personally I've found I have to fight the temptation to go overboard on any one thing on getting a lathe cleaned up, and keep focusing on moving forward overall. So I'd say wait until it shows itself as an issue that you're ready to address.


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