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  1. #61
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    img_6105.jpg

    Recent photo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baitshop View Post
    My machine is a twin to yours. It's MT5 on the headstock and MT4 on the tailstock. The leadscrew reverse function is what delineated a "toolroom" lathe.
    I know #5 Morse taper is standard on a D1-6 spindle, but I'm still pretty sure Monarch used a Jarno adapter bushing in the headstock?

    Kevin

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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    I'm curious how that was your original guess.

    Been a bit busy with doing some prep work, and just got head stock up on bed. Chuck is still on but jaw are open enough. It seems like 1.72"-ish at large end of hole. Small end of taper looks maybe .050" smaller than through hole. Length of taper portion is about 2.75".

    I figure its in mt5 or jarno 14 range.

    Again chuck is still on, but my impression is this taper portion bolts onto end of spindle.
    I have a Jarno adapter to #3 Morse taper that fits my model 61, but my machine is the 13" version, so it has the smaller through hole.....the adapter I have will not go in the 10ee which is 12 Jarno!

    I was assuming the one I have is a 14 Jarno, I guess I will have to take an actual measurement of the bushing?

    Kevin

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    Quote Originally Posted by bsg View Post
    I know #5 Morse taper is standard on a D1-6 spindle, but I'm still pretty sure Monarch used a Jarno adapter bushing in the headstock?

    Kevin
    I'm a novice. What I know is just what I was told from the lady at monarch when I asked her that specific question and the paperwork they later sent me. There was no mention of Jarno anywhere. I've also never heard that word before so I am far from an expert.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bsg View Post
    I have a Jarno adapter to #3 Morse taper that fits my model 61, but my machine is the 13" version, so it has the smaller through hole.....the adapter I have will not go in the 10ee which is 12 Jarno!

    I was assuming the one I have is a 14 Jarno, I guess I will have to take an actual measurement of the bushing?

    Kevin
    It "could be" a #13 Jarno.

    Measurement is only complicated because Monarch used a pair of truncated cone Jarno-section "rings".

    - The one at the mouth is a 2/3'rds or so back of the "full" jarno already, not out at the end of it.

    - Then cometh a relief back of the D1 hardware so turning the draw-up cams doesn't impinge on tapered goods,

    - then a second truncated-cone "ring" that isn't the clear arse end of the jarno either.

    FWIW, years of putting goods in usually raises a few burrs in the leading step-edge of that second cone. Those are a royal bitch kitty to get a stone to, back in where they are, but yah will NOT get a good seating of - for example, one of Brian Miller's superb test bars - until they are properly cleaned-up.

    Jarno taper is the brainchild of Oscar Beale, Brown & Sharpe's legendary "Works Manager". History is out there. Interesting read.

    The math on a jarno is dirt-simple, and "Just F(raternally) Works", any size, and any fraction of a size for exactly ONE ever-identical taper angle. Better-yet? it is a GOOD choice of taper angle, all-around use. I did say Oscar was a bit of a legend? Bright guy. Very!

    Whereas either/both of MT & B&S are NOT 100% "regular" one size to the next and need a look-up table as much as the maths to ID or duplicate their slight variations in taper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baitshop View Post
    I'm a novice. What I know is just what I was told from the lady at monarch when I asked her that specific question and the paperwork they later sent me. There was no mention of Jarno anywhere. I've also never heard that word before so I am far from an expert.
    That's a really pretty machine you have there. I like the gloss on the paint. I'd like to find one of those hand crank drivers for tail stock you got there too.

    There's a pretty handy dandy list of machine tapers and their dimensions here, if you're curious:
    Dimensions of Standard Tapers - LittleMachineShop.com

    I'd be real curious the paper work you got. If it were details of machine or original sale, set up etc. Have not researched yet what is available, if it is along the line of South Bend serial cards, or something like is available.

    I do believe I have a jarno 13 in another machine. I'll have to pop it out to check. Like thermite said, jarno tapers all use the same degree of pitch or taper angle. So though smaller, I may tell if that pitch is correct, it'll drop in deeper, but should stop before passing through.

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    In thinking about that jarno taper in another machine, I was thinking I had bought another dead center for that as well. Apparently I did, and in looking for it found a mt5 to mt3 sleeve as well. Funny what we forget given a little time.

    109.jpg

    I pulled chuck off. The taper looked seldom used if ever. Needs a little more cleaning. Seems like a vactra oil had been repeated used and dried in the hole. Cleaned it up a little to better check the taper.

    110.jpg

    As expected, the jarno 13 fell deeper into hole, but did stop. It did not feel like correct taper though. I could wiggle it in way that small end was moving up and down while large end was snug.

    The mt5 felt correct. Large and small end getting snug at the same time. I'm pretty happy with that actually, as there seems to be more options and decent prices in the mt5.

    I'm glad its resolved, because I want to get test bars coming. I'll be reluctant to build left end, and bury the headstock clamp on that side. If I need to mess around with headstock alignment at all, I'll need to tighten and loosen headstock repeatedly, until I get it squared away.

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    Wanting to hang some big pieces and start clearing floor space. Thought I'd start prepping bed for headstock and carriage. Used wd-40 to soak ways and used a fine sandpaper to wet sand with the wd-40. Scrubbed down bed and ways with mineral spirits afterwards. Ways came up really well I thought.

    111.jpg 112.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    In thinking about that jarno taper in another machine, I was thinking I had bought another dead center for that as well. Apparently I did, and in looking for it found a mt5 to mt3 sleeve as well. Funny what we forget given a little time.

    109.jpg

    I pulled chuck off. The taper looked seldom used if ever. Needs a little more cleaning. Seems like a vactra oil had been repeated used and dried in the hole. Cleaned it up a little to better check the taper.

    110.jpg

    As expected, the jarno 13 fell deeper into hole, but did stop. It did not feel like correct taper though. I could wiggle it in way that small end was moving up and down while large end was snug.

    The mt5 felt correct. Large and small end getting snug at the same time. I'm pretty happy with that actually, as there seems to be more options and decent prices in the mt5.

    I'm glad its resolved, because I want to get test bars coming. I'll be reluctant to build left end, and bury the headstock clamp on that side. If I need to mess around with headstock alignment at all, I'll need to tighten and loosen headstock repeatedly, until I get it squared away.
    I have a suspicion.. that's all it is, so far.. but take a stylus to those six grey areas on the inner circle. You might have thought they were fasteners for an add-on nose. I think they are corrosion left from trapped swarf around the D1 cam stud anchor capscrews.

    IOW, the suspicion is that lathe went AGES without its D1 "nose art" ever being removed at all.

    By the same accident, your spindle bore taper just might be in perfect, no-burr condition - never having been used - once the varnish is dissolved off.

    Test bars:

    JMNSHO, yah can't beat Brian Miller for those. I have two in 5 MT. One of Brians (also a #12 Jarno from him..).

    One I bought from India. The one from India ain't BAD.

    It just ain't a Brian Miller.. with which I can actually USE my 20 millionths Mahr and my ten-millionths Hamilton. Brian's bars are serious good!

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    With bed cleaned up, I primed and painted. I used an oil based enamel which I have had good luck with in the past. Its pretty resilient to oil, scratches and chipping. Majic brand name from Tractor Supply co. It's a 1:1 mix of Light Ford Gray(nearly white) and Old Ford Blue.

    113.jpg 114.jpg 115.jpg 116.jpg

    I always give a minimum of 2 days to cure before I allow any oils on paint, 3 to 5 days if I can help it. And I've had really good results.

    In this case I didn't plan on getting any oil on paint, so after about 1 day to cure, I went ahead and mounted headstock. I would really prefer prepping and painting headstock first. But I'm trying to balance mess, floorspace, time, and quality results the best I can.

    I did clean the mating surfaces to bed really well before setting it. I'm feeling pretty good with the momentum I have atm, and a little relief that the heaviest pieces are all set in place now.

    117.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    I have a suspicion.. that's all it is, so far.. but take a stylus to those six grey areas on the inner circle. You might have thought they were fasteners for an add-on nose. I think they are corrosion left from trapped swarf around the D1 cam stud anchor capscrews.

    IOW, the suspicion is that lathe went AGES without its D1 "nose art" ever being removed at all.

    By the same accident, your spindle bore taper just might be in perfect, no-burr condition - never having been used - once the varnish is dissolved off.

    Test bars:

    JMNSHO, yah can't beat Brian Miller for those. I have two in 5 MT. One of Brians (also a #12 Jarno from him..).

    One I bought from India. The one from India ain't BAD.

    It just ain't a Brian Miller.. with which I can actually USE my 20 millionths Mahr and my ten-millionths Hamilton. Brian's bars are serious good!
    My camera has this magic ability. On occasion when I use flash, the lighting makes things look way different than reality. In this case, it made allen holes looked clear up packed, and spindle looked like it was beat on with sledge hammers and run over by a train.

    Its not like that.

    I did use a flat head screw driver to clear holes a little prior to next two pics, but check out the next two pics, with and without flash. You are right on one thing, when chuck was on and I saw the allens, that's why I thought maybe a bolt on taper.

    With flash:

    118.jpg

    Without camera flash:

    119.jpg

    Is Brian Miller the same from Miller Machine and Fabrication ? The website here:
    Products – Miller Machine and Fabrication

    I've got a terrible memory, and its been a few years, but if it is, I did use him for a South Bend 16" test bar. And It was really excellent work. A nice guy on the phone too as I recall.

    Not 100% sure which way I'm going to go yet. I'm also toying with the idea of a mt5 to mt4 sleeve, then one mt4 test bar for both HS and TS. Or two separate test bars, an mt5 and a mt4. . . mt4's 15.25" length, while the mt5 is 17.5".

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    There's a guy in another thread who just requested a trade - he has a good 9" (I think they are a tad under that, actually) 6 jaw Buck adjust-tru, wants a 10" four-jaw.

    That'd be absolutely tits on yer Monarch. Made many hundreds of gear blanks with a setup like that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    My camera has this magic ability. On occasion when I use flash, the lighting makes things look way different than reality. In this case, it made allen holes looked clear up packed, and spindle looked like it was beat on with sledge hammers and run over by a train.

    Its not like that.

    I did use a flat head screw driver to clear holes a little prior to next two pics, but check out the next two pics, with and without flash. You are right on one thing, when chuck was on and I saw the allens, that's why I thought maybe a bolt on taper.

    With flash:

    118.jpg

    Without camera flash:

    119.jpg
    I'll be damned! (again. still-yet..) D'you know what? Mere 'suspicion" again, but what if..... MMT had a special order where a customer wanted 5 MT. not XX jarno, machined-off the D1 short taper cone, and DID make a stock spindle into a two-piece?

    Hard to fathom a "field DIY". Buggers ran spindle bearings much the same quality as a 10EE. 50 millionths TIR standard, better-yet (35 millionths) on special order.


    Is Brian Miller the same from Miller Machine and Fabrication ? The website here:
    Products – Miller Machine and Fabrication

    I've got a terrible memory, and its been a few years, but if it is, I did use him for a South Bend 16" test bar. And It was really excellent work. A nice guy on the phone too as I recall.
    That's our Brian, and yes, very decent chap.

    Not 100% sure which way I'm going to go yet. I'm also toying with the idea of a mt5 to mt4 sleeve, then one mt4 test bar for both HS and TS. Or two separate test bars, an mt5 and a mt4. . . mt4's 15.25" length, while the mt5 is 17.5".
    I have sleeves, solid, split, spring... coming out of my ears.

    No Fine Way I would want to mess with stacking error for a test bar.

    The only purpose it HAS is the highest precision possible. Why mess?

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    There's a guy in another thread who just requested a trade - he has a good 9" (I think they are a tad under that, actually) 6 jaw Buck adjust-tru, wants a 10" four-jaw.

    That'd be absolutely tits on yer Monarch. Made many hundreds of gear blanks with a setup like that.
    I actually had some questions about chucks, the back plates and such. I just didn't get there yet. I've heard good things about Buck and 6 jaws though I have not used them. My first thought when I was buying this machine was I need a 4 jaw. Mentally I just kind relate to a 4 jaw, in that it is like other alignment things, reading at 4 points. Is the 6 jaw independent ?

    Any recommendation on where to get back plates ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    I actually had some questions about chucks, the back plates and such. I just didn't get there yet. I've heard good things about Buck and 6 jaws though I have not used them. My first thought when I was buying this machine was I need a 4 jaw. Mentally I just kind relate to a 4 jaw, in that it is like other alignment things, reading at 4 points. Is the 6 jaw independent ?

    Any recommendation on where to get back plates ?
    - Old Bucks were good. New LARGE Bucks might still be. Smaller ones, they might be making? More likely simply "branding" imports.

    - 6 jaw are for tubes and rings where fewer jaws too easily distort the shape by the time they have even a half-decent grip. Generally scroll operated, not great for serious clamping of solid stock.

    I keep one around. Feurda/Gator 6"+ bought new. Came with a forged steel backplate, standard. Bison also have optional forged steel backplates in their lineup.

    Otherwise I have had to buy Shars Cast-Iron backplates - outta China - to keep the costs down.

    They fit and work "OK". Just.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    I'll be damned! (again. still-yet..) D'you know what? Mere 'suspicion" again, but what if..... MMT had a special order where a customer wanted 5 MT. not XX jarno, machined-off the D1 short taper cone, and DID make a stock spindle into a two-piece?

    Hard to fathom a "field DIY". Buggers ran spindle bearings much the same quality as a 10EE. 50 millionths TIR standard, better-yet (35 millionths) on special order.

    That's our Brian, and yes, very decent chap.

    I have sleeves, solid, split, spring... coming out of my ears.

    No Fine Way I would want to mess with stacking error for a test bar.

    The only purpose it HAS is the highest precision possible. Why mess?
    I'd be kind of scared to investigate if that is an adapter, might not be true again if it comes out. I'm hoping the ID is true now if thats the case, but im guessing it is. We'll know before to long.

    I was leaning toward a mt5 test bar myself as well, vs adapter. The little bit of extra length is attractive in running the setup too. I was just considering from a budget perspective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    I'd be kind of scared to investigate if that is an adapter, might not be true again if it comes out. I'm hoping the ID is true now if thats the case, but im guessing it is. We'll know before to long.

    I was leaning toward a mt5 test bar myself as well, vs adapter. The little bit of extra length is attractive in running the setup too. I was just considering from a budget perspective.
    I once asked Brian to fab me a longer bar than his usual. He declined.

    Figured he knew more than I did as to what was practical, so I went with what he had shipped me, standard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    That's a really pretty machine you have there. I like the gloss on the paint. I'd like to find one of those hand crank drivers for tail stock you got there too.

    There's a pretty handy dandy list of machine tapers and their dimensions here, if you're curious:
    Dimensions of Standard Tapers - LittleMachineShop.com

    I'd be real curious the paper work you got. If it were details of machine or original sale, set up etc. Have not researched yet what is available, if it is along the line of South Bend serial cards, or something like is available.

    I do believe I have a jarno 13 in another machine. I'll have to pop it out to check. Like thermite said, jarno tapers all use the same degree of pitch or taper angle. So though smaller, I may tell if that pitch is correct, it'll drop in deeper, but should stop before passing through.
    Thanks for the compliment. The paperwork came from Monarch and was basically a copy of the original order sheet. Monarch will have the same info for your machine. I bought the hundred dollar facsimile of the original owners manual from them and they included copies of the original order when they mailed it to me. And in reading through the responses here I just remembered that did in fact buy a Indian test bar when I put my machine back together and it was MT5. My memory is awful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    I've heard good things about Buck and 6 jaws though I have not used them. My first thought when I was buying this machine was I need a 4 jaw. Mentally I just kind relate to a 4 jaw, in that it is like other alignment things, reading at 4 points. Is the 6 jaw independent ?
    You probably do need a 4-jaw, although I seldom used one. Depends on the type of work you do ..

    The adjust-tru has a limited amount of centering ability - maybe about .050" ? Maybe a little more. Except for that they are a normal scroll chuck.

    It's more of a production chuck, but what I like about them is, more jaws Good for thin wall, good for grabbing by a little flange, good for anything when you don't want to squeeze it to death, parts come out rounder, you can pull three off and use them as a three-jaw or you can pull two off in opposition and use them as a sort-of two jaw, or if you need to you can even pull off four and use them as a two-jaw .... and there's pie jaw top jaws ... versatile.

    Another thing nice with adjust-tru is, say you've got fifty parts to make / finish, you want to locate off a feature, you can't do it in a standard three-jaw and a four-jaw would take forever, but pop them into the buck and use the adjusters to indicate, you can get the parts running within tenths easy. Did that a lot in an i.d. grinder, it's fast and accurate.

    Mikey likes 'em

    Quote Originally Posted by Baitshop
    My memory is awful.
    You've got a memory ? Cool ! I write my name on a little tag and pin it to the front of my shirt every day ....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baitshop View Post
    And in reading through the responses here I just remembered that did in fact buy a Indian test bar when I put my machine back together and it was MT5. My memory is awful.
    Don't git all uppity and 'elitist" over that part.

    "It's PM, dammit."

    You shall have to take a number and wait yer turn to fergit s**t.. just like the rest of us.

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