HELP!: Monarch 10EE Jerky/Jumpy/Stuttering Spindle from 0 - 1,400 RPM - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by labeeman View Post
    Looks Good On the field check. Next check the amps on the motor how much it is drawing when not cutting.

    I don’t have an AC/DC AMP probe for my Fluke 87V Multi-meter, any advice on which one to get, please suggest a model #, Thanks, Ken

  2. #22
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    UPDATE:

    Today I am sending my Control Module off to Tim (Great Guy!) at Scissio Controls to check it out.

  3. #23
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    I have been trying to beat the weather working on a machine trying to get it inside, so I cant follow forums as much.
    I looked over this and seen every test except running the machine without module installed, happens to be in the manual also. The test can indicate many things including the condition of the C3j tube.
    By the way, the C3j tube can glow and look good but also be faulty, wig out under load. Just because you bought one on ebay doesn't mean its any good, even new in box.

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  5. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by donie View Post
    I have been trying to beat the weather working on a machine trying to get it inside, so I cant follow forums as much.
    I looked over this and seen every test except running the machine without module installed, happens to be in the manual also. The test can indicate many things including the condition of the C3j tube.
    By the way, the C3j tube can glow and look good but also be faulty, wig out under load. Just because you bought one on ebay doesn't mean its any good, even new in box.
    Donnie, thanks for the info. I was concerned about that possibility of a C3J tube being actually bad but still “Glowing”. So I wouldn’t be surprised at all if it is the issue
    I just ordered another C3J, from a retail site and they confirmed it is a new one.

    I did run the machine without the module and it seemed fine, off course constant rpm. Here is a link to the YouTube video with it running without the module:
    YouTube
    Last edited by Mac007; 01-15-2020 at 02:38 PM.

  6. #25
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    UPDATE:
    I got my Control module back from Tim at Scissio and he said it was fine.

    I reinstalled it and the NEW C3J tube that came in and the jitteriness at lower RPM’s persists.

    So I’m still looking for the underlying cause.

    I am going to wait till I move it from the Shop Addition to it’s home in the main shop before I do anymore investigation.

    But I would certainly welcome any suggestions as to what to test in the meantime.

    Kind Regards, Ken

  7. #26
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    Was the lathe working properly in the low speed range until you saw it misbehave? I.e. this is a new problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rke[pler View Post
    Was the lathe working properly in the low speed range until you saw it misbehave? I.e. this is a new problem.
    This has been an issue from the beginning of me acquiring the 1969 10EE recently. So no not a new problem.
    Been working through a process of elimination:
    1) New Diodes
    2) Replacement C3J off of Ebay, Then a NEW one.
    3) Got Clean bill of health from Tim at Scissio Controls on my control module.

    So have no idea what is the cause, but wondering if I should check the Motor Brushes and Armature??

  9. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mac007 View Post
    This has been an issue from the beginning of me acquiring the 1969 10EE recently. So no not a new problem.
    You probably could have led with this, but I'm not sure how it would have changed the diagnosis. At this point I think you need to look at the AP relay (I think we've misidentified the relay in the past, but all the schematics identify the opening/closing relay in the video as the AP relay). I suspect that someone in the past has changed the setting on that relay and it's now less sensitive (maybe more?) than it should be. Perhaps others could chime in on how to set this relay - as I understand it it should close/open at a particular armature voltage so that the controls can't be reversed, but the contacts are across the field and in line with the gearbox lock solenoid (at least according to 61215).

    My hillbilly hack would be to look at the contacts of that relay with the power off and do something to maintain that state when on - if the contacts are closed (a NC relay) simply jumper the contacts; if the contacts are open (a NO relay) slip something non-conductive between the contacts and tape it in place. If the coil is accessable you might just disconnect the coil. See if the lathe misbehaves with the relay out, if not then we can get to figuring out why and how to make it behave correctly.

    But again - I don't have a modular and I might be misidentifying the relay. I can't tell from the circuit why you'd get a thunk from the AP relay, but I've heard that from the QSD relay (it shunts 'excess' voltage from the motor into the brake resistors) when it was set badly. But a quick check as I've suggested might help limit things.

  10. #29
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    RKEPLER,

    THANKS! I appreciate any and all suggestions, I will update here again once I look into these suggestions.

    Kind Regards, Ken

  11. #30
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    You are working with an autorange meter trying to sort out if it is AC or DC you are trying to read.
    The speed it is pulsing, probably has the meter totally confused.
    I would see if you can borrow a Simpson 260 or a Triplett 630 or similar multimeter with a pointer that moves.
    Check both field and armature voltages, to see if the pointer jumps around with the pulsing.

    If the field is steady, and the armature is jumping around, then the AP relay is doing it's job.
    And all the racket is the gearbox lock solenoid pounding away.

    Post what you find, and we can direct you from there.

    Bill

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    using a large screw driver the right hand door safety can be defeated by opening the right hand door and turning on the disconnect switch with a screw driver. Please be careful.
    At the same time have the tube board laid out.
    With the room lights off, the condition should quickly show where your problem is, the intermittent spindle problem will show up as small arcing in a relay, stormy condition in a big tube, or switch contact.
    I really hate doing a post on defeating safety devices on a machine with more then enough power to kill you, but its part of the fun, like adjusting the drive belts at full speed for the smoothest running, just another day running the greatest lathe ever devised and getting the most out of it.
    I have had trouble with the safety solenoid on the left hand door, remove and cap the wires. Same with the solenoid the prevents shifting the back gear above 200rpms, remove that one too, only a moron would shift the back gear with the machine running.
    Those two solenoids can get old and load the circuits they are in, and cause speed problems also.
    Keep one hand in a pocket when poking around the electricals of a Monarch ee.

  13. #32
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    Donnie wrote:

    "Keep one hand in a pocket when poking around the electricals of a Monarch ee."

    Excellent advice! It is especially valid when working on our 10ee lathes..

    But it is excellent advice when working around any form of electrical devices:
    Never let your body be a conductor from one hand to the other.. your heart is in the middle of that 'conductor'.
    And your heart may not be able to withstand the experience.

    DualValve



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    Quote Originally Posted by donie View Post
    Keep one hand in a pocket when poking around the electricals of a Monarch ee.
    Good advice, but "in ADDITION", not instead-of?

    "Double glove".

    A pair or three of high-voltage lineman insulating rubber gloves are only the INNER ones, the primo insulator. These ain't kitchen dishwashing goods. Worth their cost. Even Amazon lists them.

    Better than bare handed? Wear "at least" nitrile or latex disposables.

    OUTER glove is easily as important. A loose strand of wire can easily pierce the unprotected inner.

    The tough cowhide a lineman wears is appropriate to THEIR work. For the more delicate touch of a stick-and rectumfry 10EE, Deerskin suits me.

    TiG welders may already Goatskin to-hand.

    Your favourite synthetic work gloves may do also.

    DO NOT, repeat NOT substitute being gloved-up for Best Practice.

    Ex; I have LOTS of test leads and clips. I like to attach them power-off, usually using a scope plus two meters at a go. All set up? NOW I can power up.

    "Your Mileage May Vary", but Dee Cee at even HALF the Voltages a 10EE works with can be lethal.

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  16. #34
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    Jerking Drive Issue Fixed !!

    First, A BIG thank you to everyone who took time to help!!


    AP RELAY:
    I believe I mentioned this before, that the 2nd AP contact arm was bent/deformed and remained open rather than closed at -0- spindle RPM. Upon studying the electrical schematics I was able to learn that both of the AP relay contacts are suppose to be “NC”, normally closed. Also the 2nd AP contact controls the Low Gear Lock out Solenoid, which prevents you shifting the gearbox with the spindle rotating, and therefore my Lock out Solenoid was not working. I removed the AP Relay, straightened the 2nd contact’s arm, dressed the contacts, adjusted the contacts and the relay spring tension so the contacts worked in unison and were both closed. During this process I discovered that the 2nd contact’s wire had broken away from its soldered connection. I had to replace this wire and its lug entirely with a new wire.
    Bent Contact Arm. New Wire & Contacts Closed
    eafff799-5e4b-4812-b799-2cd6f5a13ab4.jpg bc2e2532-1cc9-4306-807f-d444ac8bff1c.jpg fd1dfac7-fdcf-4695-ac6f-b9b61dd4d0e3.jpg
    I will say it would be very hard to have seen the broken wire with the relay in the machine and I can see where these wires could fatigue and break given enough cycles of these relays.

    After reinstalling the AP Relay, my Lock Out Solenoid would retract and I could now shift the gearbox. I did so and ran the lathe in low gear and there was no indication of the Stuttering/Jerking of the spindle/drive. Shifted back to high gear/belt drive and Jerking was still present.

    Next I began a trial and error attempt to adjust the QSD, Quick Slow Down relay based on a suggestion by Tim of Scissio controls (very nice guy!). To change things up after a few adjustments I ran the lathe in reverse and there wasn’t any Jerking. I then ran it in forward and still no jerking :)

    I do not know which, or the combination of all these changes actually corrected the issue. I even wonder if running the lathe in reverse could have potentially helped clean/wipe the commutator & improve the contact with the brushes, or freed up a stuck brush, but I am very happy to have the shifting lock out solenoid working, and to have a SMOOTH running drive :)

    Finally, Once again I am very grateful for this community of far more knowledgeable folks than I, that are willing to take their time to read and respond to posts with helpful suggestions.

    THANK YOU!!

    Kind Regards, Ken


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  18. #35
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    Glad to see you got it functioning properly! that's great.

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    While the outside has the classic shapely lines, My '42 round-dial MG unit was a wartime workhorse, everything inside was totally utilitarian... so I gotta say this:

    That relay is unlike ANYTHING inside my '42. It's just OOOZING HOT SEXY!

    Glad you got in there to find that, and took a photo of it, too!!!

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