A Hendey 9 T&G "wreck"
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  1. #1
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    Default A Hendey 9 T&G "wreck"

    Hello all,
    With apologies to Harry Bloom for the thread title, I'm starting a thread detailing the rebuild of my Hendey 9x36 T&G lathe.

    I bought this project machine last summer and although it is substantially complete and "mostly" working, recent inspection has shown that it has lived a long well used life.
    When I got it I recognized that the bed was worn, but that was not too big a deal right??

    I have spent the last few day stripping the machine down into large chunks, and have set up the bed as level as I can and have started to measure.
    The bed has a worn area of aprox 12" long, right in front of the chuck. this wear is primarily on the front face of the front "V" and to a lesser extent on the back side of the back "V".

    As best as I have been able to measure it is worn about .010"

    The red markings show the unworn area toward the tailstock end. ( right hand side of the picture)
    This wear combined with another .010" or so on the carriage "V" makes for a drop of .020"
    in this area.
    It is pretty obvious that two things happened with this lathe
    1) A lot of work was accomplished using this area of the bed. This also shows up in considerable wear on the carriage feed rod keyway which is worn in a corresponding area.
    2) The lathe was not lubricated regularly. This machine does not have a carriage oil system like a 10EE, but has oil cups and large felt wipers on the carriage wings. These oilers were buried under several layers of paint and the felts were quite hard and dirty.

    A careful look at the picture will also show the wear on the tailstock slide way. This bed is a little unusual in that it has 2 outer inverted "V"s and flat / wide V combination, tailstock slideway
    This slideway is not too badly worn, only measuring .0025" wear for an area about a foot long, half way down the bed. a small portion of the slide is not worn at all as the tailstock does not overlap it. this can be seen as the red stripe in the middle of the bed.

    A quick inspection of the machine during dis-assembly shows that there is not much wear in the mechanicals of the machine, other than a couple of worn bronze bushings and a couple of bad ball bearings.
    This machine was designed to be grease lubricated for the most part.

    Hopefully tomorrow I will be able to spend some time charting the wear like Harry did on his project.
    Can anyone suggest a way to get better pictures of the bed?

    Cheers
    Pete
    Last edited by shapeaholic; 12-31-2010 at 07:47 AM. Reason: spelling error

  2. #2
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    Pete thats a nice looking machine what year was it made.
    Collector

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    nice lathe, long bed option much more useful than the shorter beds.

    have you inspected the worm feed gears in the apron? i found the crossslide worm feed gear (bronze) badly worn on my lathe. this gear is lubricated with grease, & may have failed prematurely due to prior owner using grease with EP additives (which is bad for bronze gears).

    ihth

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    Collector,
    The machine was built by Barbour Colman in 1957. Sn is AHL40056R. It has a selenium rectifier drive.
    I sure wish I was closer to you, we could try out your way grinder on this one ;-))

    DA,
    I have not broken down the sub-assemblies further than was necessary to handle the parts. It is my intention to scrape the bed and then overhaul the components. I will definitely pay attention to the gears.
    Were you able to get a replacement? Where??

    Pete

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    My crossfeed worm gear is going, but not fully wrecked yet.

    The following subdirectory contains apron parts, one of which is the worm gear:

    Apron parts pictures by Disasterarea_photos - Photobucket

    I have not replaced the gear. Working through Hendeyman to fix the problem via a replacement part, or blueprint. * n.b. with worm gears, maybe both the bronze & mating steel gear must be replaced as a pair, since they mesh together & conform to each other (thought I read that somewhere, not sure).

    This worm gear looks like a dificult part to make. I could make it on the T&G lathe, but I don't have the diametral change gears. Link for diametral change gear blueprint:

    http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h1...0/IMG_0003.jpg

    Apron link also shows half nuts (babbit?), you might want to look at your's too.

    ihth

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    Pete,
    No offense taken, you're using a lower case "w", but I did burst out laughing. John Oder's Greaves & Klusman is truly a wreck.

    Do you plan on building a "sled"?
    Harry

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    Default Apron gearing on Barber-Colman T&G lathe (AHL 40041)

    Diaster Area & Shapeaholic,
    I just checked the gears in the apron assembly - mine are steel. As I recall in a phone conversation with Hendeyman, one of the improvements Barber-Colman made to the lathe was to replace the bronze gears with steel. I haven't gotten to removing the worm since just finished shoveling the driveway this afternoon.
    Thanks for the photos, they should make the further dis-assembly of the apron easier. Then it is on to replace some bushings for the hand wheel which was the original reason to remove the apron.

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    "It has a selenium rectifier drive."

    IIRC, it is a three-phase selenium rectifier drive.

    Perhaps the selenium stacks could be replaced with silicon ones.

    The forward voltage drop would be less thereby.

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    Peter,
    Here are a couple of scans of the only schematic drawing I have been able to get my hands on to date. It is for a single phase input machine, very close in serial to mine.
    I am very interested to hear any comments you might have regarding the installation of silicon rectifiers in place of the selenium ones as I'm pretty sure that at least 1 of the seleniums is acting up.




    I am attempting to get my hands on a 3 phase input diagram from a similar vintage lathe, but to date have not had any joy.

    Harry,
    Yes, I am planning to use the sled method. Right now I am working on some gages so that I can accurately scrape the tailstock way. there are a couple of pristine areas that I can use as a reference, then scrape the whole length.
    I will then try to decide how best to re-work the carriage slides.
    Attached is a scan of part of the original drawing for the planing and grinding of the bed. I was very fortunate to get this from Hendeyman via browniesharp.
    It is a big sheet with all the tolerances on it. depending on which side of the tolerance BC worked to, the tailstock slide might even end up within new tolerance.

    Cheers
    Pete

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    "I am very interested to hear any comments you might have regarding the installation of silicon rectifiers in place of the selenium ones as I'm pretty sure that at least 1 of the seleniums is acting up."

    The drive is considerably less complicated than a Monarch 10EE drive, both of which control their respective motors by a combination of armature regulation for zero to base speed and field regulation for base speed to maximum rated speed, both also called a field-weakening drive.

    This drive is an all-loss type, with no attempt to be economical as to power consumption.

    In contrast, the Monarch drive uses either a rotating electric machine as a power amplifier, or a phase-controlled rectifier as a power amplifier, with significantly less power loss.

    No matter, what you see is what you get.

    At least in the case of a change to Si rectifiers, you have the option of normal and reverse polarity diodes so that, in each case, the diodes may be in electrical contact with their required heat sinks.

    The challenge will be to get enough heat sink area into the existing drive housing, then to insulate the heat sinks from the housing.

    Diode PIV is not going to be a problem as this is a 240 volt drive (about 325 volts peak), and PIVs of at least 400 and up to 1600 should be readily available.

    The diodes' current requirements can be determined with reference to the motor's nameplate data.

    As you might expect, there would be a large stack for the armature and a smaller stack for the field.

    Changing to Si diodes will certainly harden the drive to rectifier failures and is no way as complicated as a similar change in a Monarch 10EE which, up to now, has been totally refractory to a solid-state conversion.

    Once you collect as much nameplate data as is possible (motor and rectifier, etcetera) and do a literature search on the same, a conversion to Si should be relatively easy.

    Probably Digi-Key has everything you might need.

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    Pete,

    I am trying to think through a scraping plan for your lathe bed but I am confused about the configuration of the ways. From the photo I see a flat way, an inverted V-way, a flat way, a gap, a flat way, an inverted V-way, and a flat way. In other words, the ways on both sides of the gap seem symetrical. From the drawing it seems that one of the outer flat ways does not exist. The drawing also shows the edges of the ways at the gap are angled 45 degrees from horizontal. From the photo I would have guessed the edges are square to the flat ways. But from your statement: "it has 2 outer inverted "V"s and flat / wide V combination, tailstock slideway" I can tell I am not getting it. Can you give me a clearer picture?

    Chiefly I wonder whether horizontal alignment of the tailstock ram is controlled by the 45 degree edges, square edges, or an inverted V-way. So what kind of guage are you making for the tailstock ways--obtuse angle gage, square gage, or an inverted V-template? Also, why can't the base of the tailstock be used for this gage?

    Do you plan to make the carriage into a template before your scrape the carriage ways?

    What did you choose for a leveling surface? From the drawing one inverted V-way is flat on top and the other is not. What's up with that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by shapeaholic View Post
    ... Can anyone suggest a way to get better pictures of the bed?
    What are you trying to photograph or show? What make and model camera do you have?

    PM sent re schematic.

    Cal

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    Pete,
    Lighting plays a part in the pictures. The lighting in my shop is not great for pictures, but I can play with the picture brightness/darkness, and the contrast, in the Canon program. For instance, I would have lightened the picture of the bed, for better detail on the left end of the bed. You may want to experiment with different colors of spotting compound, I know Canode has blue, and I think they have yellow. Sometimes you have to use a heavier coating if you want to highlight some particular detail, but one thing I found very difficult to show are the final one or two spottings, and I hardly ever tried after the first couple of attempts.
    Harry

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    Quote Originally Posted by beckley23 View Post
    ... one thing I found very difficult to show are the final one or two spottings, and I hardly ever tried after the first couple of attempts.
    Harry
    Have you tried using a colored filter on the camera? IIRC, a red filter will darken blue up. (You would probably want to switch to black & white mode, either in the camera or afterwards in your favorite photo editing program.)

    I wonder if any of the spotting compounds are fluorescent under UV light?

    Cal

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    Cecilstrange,
    Perhaps the thumbnail will clarify the positioning of the tail stock on the bed with the 45 degree bevels and the flats.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails s6300691-resize.jpg  

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    When you get down to the last couple of cycles, the spotting is extremely faint, you've really got to look for it. Quite often, when I was getting close, and wanted a picture, I would apply just enough medium to the spotting tool to enhance the print, then wipe it off, and re-spot so I could scrape. In addition, the picture would be shot from several different angles, so I could choose the best of the lot.
    Harry

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    Thanks for the picture of the tailstock. Now I get the configuration of the ways.

    I've worked at lighting scraping projects for photos without much success. Diffusing light from directly overhead helped some. Surounding the work with pieces of drywall or a white sheet elimitated the reflections from nearby machines, or my body, from the photos. Still, every frame of closeups would have a portion washed out from reflected light. Only by panning the work with the camera in video mode have I been able to capture all the surface detail from a long workpiece. Even then details were only clear from a narrow range of camera angles.

    I worked on it with a pro photographer for a few hours once. None of his filters or lighting equipment solved the problem and his final suggestion was to try a better camera.

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    Default Hendy 9" lathe single phase wiring diagram

    Quote Originally Posted by shapeaholic View Post
    Here are a couple of scans of the only schematic drawing I have been able to get my hands on to date. It is for a single phase input machine, very close in serial to mine. ...

    I am very interested to hear any comments you might have regarding the installation of silicon rectifiers in place of the selenium ones as I'm pretty sure that at least 1 of the seleniums is acting up. ...

    I am attempting to get my hands on a 3 phase input diagram from a similar vintage lathe, but to date have not had any joy.
    ...
    Pete sent me high resolution photos of the wiring diagram. I converted them to black and white, here are links to the diagram sections:

    Hendy 9" lathe single phase wiring diagram - Barber-Coleman drawing DEDA-5-0L (L)
    Hendy 9" lathe single phase wiring diagram - Barber-Coleman drawing DEDA-5-0L (R)

    I'm very interested in the comments of Peter and others about how this works. It appears to be relatively simple: the DC spindle motor armature and shunt field are each powered by a variable autotransformer and a bridge rectifier. The armature autotransformer is 20A; the field is 3A. I assume that the two autotransformers are mechanically linked to provide field weakening, similar to the 10EE drive. The three inductors IT1, IT2 and IT3 have a common core; similarly, inductors ISR1, ISR2 and ISR3 share a core. IT3 and ISR3 are connected to the armature bridge rectifier, after the transformer, while the other inductors are connected across the main 110VAC bus. It's not immediately obvious to me what the function of the inductors is. I imagine that the most expensive component in the drive is the 20A autotransformer; they appear to sell for $500+.

    Cal

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    Default Hendy "Magnetic Amplifier" Drive

    Wow. I’m surprised that none of you guys are interested in this. I suspect that if it had a couple of C16J’s, we would have had several pages of discussion by now…

    Anyway, Pete sent me a copy of pages 4 & 5 of the manual, which describe the drive:
    The 9” Tool and Gage Maker’s Lathe is furnished with a completely new magnetic amplifier drive as standard equipment. This speed control unit allows a wide range of stepless speeds and a close control of speed under a changing load. It replaces the motor-generator unit, resulting in a more efficient drive and a more sensitive speed control. Speeds are infinitely variable and may be changed smoothly and easily while under load. Full torque is supplied at slow speeds. Its quiet operation and ease of control make this machine invaluable in a toolroom.

    The range of spindle speeds is from 15 RPM to 3000 RPM. The lower range of speeds from 15 RPM to 250 RPM is through back gears having a very low velocity. No gears are engaged when operating on the belt speed range of 25 RPM to 3000 RPM. The variable-speed DC motor supplies 3HP at 2760 RPM and 2 HP at 690 RPM. The drive from the motor to the spindle is through a multiple V-belt drive. The AC source of power is converted to DC by means of the magnetic amplifier unit. This unit consists primarily of selenium rectifiers and transformer-type reactor cores. Consequently, it is a static device with no moving parts, resulting in exceptionally long service life and practically no maintenance. Previous applications of this type of drive in steel mills, paper mills, etc., have proven its reliability for low-cost maintenance.

    Thermal overloads are provided to protect both the motor and the rectifiers. A non-fused disconnect switch is furnished with the machine. The magnetic amplifier unit is normally supplied in the base of the machine, but it can be mounted in a panel on the rear of the headstock when desired.

    A dynamic brake allows rapid stopping of the work spindle. This brake will stop the spindle instantly even when it is operating at maximum speed. Starting, stopping and reversing of the spindle from preset speeds are accomplished smoothly and rapidly.
    With that, I think I’m beginning to see what’s going on. The saturable reactor is composed of the inductors 1SR1, 1SR2, 1SR3 used in the armature circuit. (The 1SR part probably translates to Saturable Reactor #1). It looks to me like coil 1SR3 senses the current in the armature rectifier and changes the saturation of the reactor core, lowering the inductance of 1SR1 & 1SR2, which increases the voltage to the primary of transformer 1T (windings 1T1 and 1T2). This in turn increases the voltage on 1T’s secondary (1T3), which is set up to buck the voltage from the autotransformer. So I guess this is some sort of current regulator. Yes? No? Anybody?

    (sound of crickets chirping…)

    Cal

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    Cal,
    Hendey T&G also had as a option, an electronic drive which was similar to the WIAD with two 16J tubes and a single 1K tube. My Hendey was so equipped but didn't work when I bought the machine. Consequently, the drive was replaced with a sensorless VFD. Later I discovered that one of the drive problems related to a broken terminal on one of the 16J tubes and who knows what else.

    If anyone is interested I could post a copy of the schematic for comparison to the 10ee WIAD.


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