A Hendey 9 T&G "wreck" - Page 9
Close
Login to Your Account
Page 9 of 9 FirstFirst ... 789
Results 161 to 179 of 179
  1. #161
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Country
    CANADA
    State/Province
    Ontario
    Posts
    1,176
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    71
    Likes (Received)
    120

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by M. Moore View Post
    Also are you ever going to give us the answer to your quiz in post #135? "spot the mistake"
    Michael,
    I'd forgotten about that ( LOL)
    If you look at the shot where the carriage is being laid on the bed, note that the pin stripping tape is running under the vertical alignment screws. I saw this once I had the carriage in place, and had to remove it. It would have caused miss-alignment of about .005"

    Pete

  2. #162
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Monterey Bay, California
    Posts
    10,260
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    28
    Likes (Received)
    214

    Default

    "Peter,
    "Even though this is a Hendey being posted on the Monarch forum, it's basically in the same class. There is enough difference in the way the problems have been handled, especially with the "difference in the bed treatment, and the lack of availibility of parts, that it's a good inspiration to others, who will eventually run into these problems.
    "I think this topic should go to the top of the forum and stay there.
    "Harry"

    Agreed.

  3. #163
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Country
    CANADA
    State/Province
    Ontario
    Posts
    1,176
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    71
    Likes (Received)
    120

    Default

    As promised here is a picture of the "new" motor installed in the lathe.
    The mounting is nothing fancy, just some scraps I had that fit the need. Once I get the DC motor fixed it will be a simple swap to reinstall it.


    Here are a couple of pictures of the new detent plate installation. I made it from 1/4" O1 tool steel and hardened it, along with the pin in the shifter lever. It works very well and the alignment is quite positive. With a little care it should last my lifetime.




    The pin in the shifter lever "just" slides by the plate.

    Pete

  4. #164
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Texas
    Posts
    48
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    8
    Likes (Received)
    7

    Default

    I have been drooling for the same model Hendey lathe discussed in this thread. Many are for sale but it is difficult to find one in as good a condition as yours. However, due to their age, my guess is that almost all these machines will exhibit the same wear patterns in the bed areas as yours If any of you would care to see the machine cutting threads please take a look at this YouTube video:

    Old Southbend instructional movies cutting an acme_thread.mp4 - YouTube

    What is surprising about the old film is it was released by Southbend to depict cutting Acme Threads but rather than use a Southbend product they chose to film the Hendey in action. Maybe someone has a historical corporate relationship answer for this. It is also interesting to note that the lathe is cutting an apron feed for another Hendey.

    Many thanks for your inspirational post. And best of luck with the bed scraping. You will have weight lifter strength arms after this project. Who needs a treadmill or elliptical machine to stay in shape when you can scrape ways!

  5. #165
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Country
    CANADA
    State/Province
    Ontario
    Posts
    1,176
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    71
    Likes (Received)
    120

    Default First cut

    Back again after a spate of home renovations and work on the lathe that's, well, boring.
    Over the last couple of weeks I have gotten the feed transmission ( mounted behind the headstock) scraped back into alignment, and have completed the necessary repairs to it. I made a new shaft for the belt feed and installed new bushings. Pretty basic stuff.
    Tonight I mounted the new Dorian AXA toolpost, and installed a good 3 jaw chuck on the spindle. It's beginning to look like a lathe again!!



    I chucked up a short piece of 3/4 dia steel and sharpened a HSS toolbit, and made a trial cut. not too bad.



    I made a second cut, running at 500 rpm and .003 ipr with a depth of cut at about .002'". I achieved a VERY nice finish and the diameter measured within .0004" over a cut of 5" length. ( slightly bigger toward the free end).



    I expect that some of the variation is related to spring in the steel.
    Machine Tool Reconditioning recommends a 4" diameter bar for this test, so I'll have to round up some bigger stock for next test.

    There is still a lot to do on the machine, but seeing it cut metal again is kinda nice.

    Pete

  6. Likes thermite liked this post
  7. #166
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Vienna Austria
    Posts
    263
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    93
    Likes (Received)
    72

    Default

    Nice work. It is no longer a "wreck", thats for sure.

  8. #167
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    1,422
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    52
    Likes (Received)
    98

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rotarySMP View Post
    Nice work. It is no longer a "wreck", thats for sure.
    Thats for sure! Looks great Pete!

    Dave

  9. #168
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Country
    CANADA
    State/Province
    Ontario
    Posts
    1,176
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    71
    Likes (Received)
    120

    Default Another small report

    I have been slowly working away at some small things when I have had the time.
    Lots of clean and adjust, and making small parts.
    As I have noted before I have been fortunate to be able to get some drawings for miss/broken parts from Hendeyman.

    This is the plate that tightens the tailstock on to the slideway. Supposed to be hardened steel. I made it from a piece of "Algoma 100", which is high strength structural stuff.( easier to get)


    screws to the lateral adjustment of the tailstock. Drawing complements of PM member Browniesharpe


    Replacement for a previously broken and repaired lever in the leadscrew reverse system. Note that the new one is wider across the slotted area. This was a revision on Barbour Colmen drawing dated 1957, after my machine was made. Part is O1 tool steel, hardened and ground after HT.



    I have been using the machine for some of the work, particularly for the tailstock adjustment screws. Threading with a reversible leadscrew is an interesting experience. it is much faster and there is less chance of "whoops" as the leadscrew isn't not disengaged.

    This morning I repaired the shaft for the compound feed. This had a busted tap in it. (previous owner...). After some discussion on the general board I used a carbide endmill to remove it. I had to drill and tap for a bigger screw as the previous repair attempt did in the original thread, but it is still usable, with a #12 capscrew rather than 3/16



    I did a test cut a week or so ago, using an unknown piece of steel, aprox 1.5 dia and 20 inches long. The first half of the cut was beautiful, but the finish deteriorated some in the second half. Even with the "poor" finish, I measured a difference in diameter of less than .0003" over the length. I am going to try to get a piece of material this week to redo the test. Any suggestions on the best material?

    Lastly, I have a question for anyone running a T&G lathe, What size tool post are you using?? I have a Dorian AXA, and it seems almost too big. The height over the compound is almost exactly 1 inch. Some of the tool blocks are almost to the bottom of the post to get the tool at center height. Anyone using a Multifix post?
    (picture to follow)

    Pete

  10. #169
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Louisville, KY, USA
    Posts
    3,245
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    5
    Likes (Received)
    152

    Default

    IIRC, I used 1018 for the test cut on the "Wreck". I used a TPG 321 insert with a chip breaker, and ran it from 600 up to 3000. Got the best results at 3000.
    Harry

  11. #170
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Somerville, NJ
    Posts
    216
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    9

    Default

    Pete,
    My Tool & Gagemaker lathe is equipped with an Aloris AXA toolpost. The same situation exists - after mounting several tool blocks I found only 1/8 to 3/16 inch clearance above the topslide to the bottom of the tool blocks. Looking at the Aloris literature, the AXA model is recommended for 9-12 inch lathes.

  12. #171
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Country
    CANADA
    State/Province
    Ontario
    Posts
    1,176
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    71
    Likes (Received)
    120

    Default Had a little fun threading

    The attached picture shows a soloution to a problem I had discussed on the general board a while back.
    The shaft that is driven by the belt is the drive for the surface feeds , and runs in olite bushings. This appears to be common wear problem on these machines, with the original being lubricated with grease, and most have worn the shaft badly.
    I have elected to use oil, but could not find appropriate oil cups to fit the 1/4x28 threads, So.... I made the adaptors shown and pressed in a couple of standard Gits oil cups, and pushed a piece of round felt wick down the hole to help contain the oil.
    The adaptors were made on the Hendey, threaded up to a shoulder with the feed screw reverse.
    I think that I am going to like using this lathe!!!

    Pete

  13. #172
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Country
    CANADA
    State/Province
    Ontario
    Posts
    1,176
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    71
    Likes (Received)
    120

    Default I found a motor!

    With many thanks to PM member browniesharp, I now have a "new" replacement DC motor to install and try to get the original drive working.
    This motor is a slightly different model than the one I removed, but is from a Hendey with a Louis Allis tube type drive.
    As you can see it is a large beast! I stood the 5 gallon bucket next to it for perspective.
    I hooked it up and it does run, but I think that I'll have to spend a little time tinkering with the system to get it running right.

    Now all I have to do is find time to work on it...

    Pete

  14. #173
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Somerville, NJ
    Posts
    216
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    9

    Default Vibration in Hendey T&G after SpindleRebuild

    Problem:
    I also have a Barber-Colman (Hendey) Tool and Gagemaker lathe (like the one here) which I am rebuilding. One task in the process was replacing the spindle bearings due to excessive bearing noise at moderate to high speed operation. The spindle bearing replacement eliminated the noise, however, a new problem appeared – vibration developed over a limited speed range but higher frequency harmonics may also exist. As I recall, this vibration did not occur before the repair. I have discussed this problem with Shapeaholic (Pete) and he also noted this problem but perhaps not to the extent I detect.

    Background:
    In the process of rebuilding, the lathe was essentially dismantled piece by piece – about 1100 (including nuts and screws) according to Hendeyman. Almost all the pieces were in good shape so my major tasks were replacing the numerous ball bearings and vee-belts along with fabricating worn-out bushings. – none of the extensive work described in this post by Pete was required.
    The old electronic DC drive (similar to a WIAD from a 10EE) was removed along with its DC motor (now is in Pete’s possession). This was updated with an inverter duty 3 phase motor and VFD. The remainder of the drive system was retained except for bearing and belt replacement. I purchased the spindle bearings from Alpine Bearings in Boston. The front pair was Barden 113HCRRDUH (which Alpine bearings had received about a month earlier from Barden). Since the rear bearing – a single double row angular contact ball bearing 5L11X5CF was difficult to find, this was replaced by a duplex pair of “specials” made by New Hampshire Ball Bearings 1111SD605DBM ABEC 7/9. These bearings are slightly smaller in width to match all the dimensions of the 5L11X5.

    Steps to Solve Problem:
    1) Did I re-assemble the drive between the motor and spindle incorrectly? Since the rotating parts were keyed, I assume there was only one way to assemble them and besides the assembly order was confirmed by comparison with numerous photos taken before dis-assembly.
    2) Was the drive system out of balance? See #1 above plus I examined the various drive components and found no indication that they were balanced during factory assembly (no drill hole or marks to indicate balancing). However, on the original pulley assembly from the DC motor did have balancing holes drilled. I have been unable to contact Hendeyman to answer the factory balancing question. Pete is considering making a balancing stand to precisely balance all pulleys and shafts.
    3) Bad vee-belts? Again used premium, brand name belts which were “machined matched” to better than “a” belt tolerances. Yes, you can still obtain ‘machined matched belts” at a cost slightly higher than stock belts.
    4) Could the source of vibration be isolated to either the spindle or the drive system? I removed all the vee-belts from the drive system and loosen the vee-belts directly driving the spindle. I then drove the spindle with an “external,” variable speed dc motor employing a pulley at the left end of the spindle. This pulley is used for a “belt” drive for the gear box. I found the vibration at approximately the same speed as with the usual drive set-up
    5) Bad bearings? The replacement bearings were new, quality USA made bearings purchased from a reliable supplier.
    6) . Was spindle bent? Performed some TIR measurements before and after the bearing replacement. In both cases, to best of my ability I measured about 1/2 a tenth on both the D1-4 taper and on the perpendicular face. Could a bent spindle produce such results?

    Miscellaneous Musings:
    1) Do I conclude that the vibration is isolated to the spindle? Is there a resonance frequency for the entire spindle/headstock assembly and if so how is it eliminated. Was this present before the repair and I never noticed it?
    2) Reviewing all the information, I believe that only two significant changes were made in the repair. 1) A dc motor was replaced by a three phase one driven by a VFD. 2) The single double row ball bearing (5L11X5) in the rear of the spindle was replaced by a duplex pair of angular contact bearings. Perhaps I noted greater vibration than Pete did because the front bearings in my lathe had higher per-load and thus was a stiffer spindle. I matched the high preload form the original bearings while Pete replaced his front bearings with those of medium preload.
    3) The vibration frequency varies with the weight of the load on the spindle. With nothing on the spindle, the vibration ranges from about 900 to 1000 rpm. With a 20 lb 3 jaw chuck, the range drops to 800 to 900 rpm while this drops even further with the 30 lb 4 jaw to 650 to 750 rpm. In each case the vibration occurs over about a 100 rpm range.

    Thanks for your patience and consideration
    Last edited by browniesharp; 05-01-2013 at 07:52 AM. Reason: additional infomation

  15. #174
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    North Carolina
    Posts
    1,937
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    162
    Likes (Received)
    387

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by shapeaholic View Post

    I spoke to Bob about his spindle vibration problem,
    I suggested he try and measure axial play and radial play in the bearings,
    using a test indicator and also employ a prybar to get some leverage to
    pressure the spindle up and down and in and out. I suspect the angular
    contact bearings are install both the same direction or something.
    Bob being careful and all, there is still a chance the arrow or dot was put
    on the wrong side of the race in the bearing factory, something like that.
    I am sure Bob will keep up informed.

    I re-posted Pete's pic here, just a few words. My feed pulley bushings were
    also worn, need to make new ones. While I was looking at all this on my
    lathe, the thought occurred to me, What if I cut a 1" strip off the casting
    housing as to allow the feed belt to go the other way, and be driven externally,
    by a seperate motor and VFD. This would allow cutting feed to be varied while
    taking the cut. All with the turn of a knob on the VFD. Think like a Hardinge
    HLV lathe. Hmmm. What do ya think?

    --Doozer

  16. #175
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Monterey Bay, California
    Posts
    10,260
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    28
    Likes (Received)
    214

    Default

    "Lastly, I have a question for anyone running a T&G lathe, What size tool post are you using?? I have a Dorian AXA, and it seems almost too big. The height over the compound is almost exactly 1 inch.

    "Some of the tool blocks are almost to the bottom of the post to get the tool at center height."

    On my 10 x 24 Logan, admittedly nowhere near in the same class as the T&G, the height above the compound is also almost exactly 1.0000" (LOL!).

    On a similar-sized SB, or others, the height above the compound is a perhaps more generous 1-1/8".

    Here's why that, to me, is an important distinction.

    With an AXA post and holders, these accommodate any sized tool up to 3/8", for sure, and, perhaps, 7/16". However 1/2" CANNOT be accommodated without cantilevering the holder, and hence the tool, over the sides of the compound, and cantilevering is NOT a good practice, where the best quality work is expected, and required.

    So, for my AXA holders, at least those which are used with 1/2" tools, I machine slightly less than 3/32" off of the underside of the holder, using the lathe itself, and then I "finish" the cut using a 6 x 48 abrasive finishing machine to give 3/32".

    This, then, gives me a somewhat generous allowance of 3/64" between the underside of the holders and the top of the compound, when using 1/2" tools. And, more importantly, NO need for cantilevering.

    (On some holders, my early ones, I have, respectively, used 3/16" and 3/32".)

    Perhaps not the most creative approach, but what else can one do when presented with a machine which has (only) 1.0000" between the top of the compound and the center of the machine?

    I don't do this to Aloris or Dorian holders, but to Phase II, CDCO and similar holders, which at about $10 apiece ($9 apiece, when on sale), at least from CDCO, are a relative bargain.

    So, yes, the AXA size post system is just a tad too big for a machine which has (only) 1.0000" from the top of the compound to the center, in some cases.

    But, I strongly suspect that these machines were not intended for 1/2" tooling on today's QCTP systems. Heck, Mr Sirola (the founder of Aloris) probably was still apprenticing as a machinist when the T&Gs were made.


    Multifix? I've heard some good things, even about the Far Eastern imports.

    However, the Swiss imports are WAY out of my "pay grade".
    Last edited by peterh5322; 06-09-2013 at 11:48 PM.

  17. #176
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Country
    CANADA
    State/Province
    Ontario
    Posts
    1,176
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    71
    Likes (Received)
    120

    Default Vibrations, Machine mounts, belts and out of round pulleys

    Hello all,
    It's been a while since I updated this thread, so I thought I'd bring it up to date.
    Since my last posting I have been working at solving the mysterious vibration that I was getting at a couple of specific spindle speeds. ( 875, 1300, 2500)try as I might I couldn't get ahead of that issue no matter what I tried.
    Basic trouble shooting practice would tell you to go back to what you had changed and see if that will help. Well... as anyone who has followed this thread will know, there is not much that hasn't been changed on this lathe.
    So where to start?
    I began by taking the 3ph ac motor out and replacing it with the original style Louis Allis DC motor that I got from browniesharp. This seemed a good idea, but it turned out that this motor was wound for different voltages than my original and I could not get it to work properly. So after some discussion with a local motor shop, I had them repair the original stator and I re-installed it back into the machine complete with a set of new brushes. It worked much better, but the vibration was still there. Well shoot!! ( or words to that effect) what now???
    So out comes the rebuilt motor and I yanked out the jackshaft assembly. I removed the pulleys and re-checked the static balance on them ( motor pulley as well) No issues. Put all that back together and Re-install the AC motor. Still vibrating:-((
    Some serious discussions with Browniesharpe and I figure it might be the rear bearing. This setup was an alternate shown on a Hendey drawing, but not mentioned elsewhere. The original was a single, double row bearing ND5L11, which is pretty near unobtanium. The replacement was a pair of angular contact bearings and a re-machined cap and spacer. Well, I did find a NOS 5L11 bearing in England for not too outragous money so I bought it, and installed it. the spindle is now in it's original configuration.
    Tried it again, vibration was still there! Grrrr!!!
    Put the rebuilt DC motor back, no different. ( obviously not the motor)

    By now several months had passed and a fairly large outlay of cash spent, and I was not much farther ahead.
    For some reason still unknown to me, I decided that I needed to put the machine on as set of "Royal" machine mounts that I had left over from another project. So with the kind assistance of "#1 son" we raised the machine onto the rubber mounts. We tried the machine again, and the vibration was still there but different. Hmmm??

    Still trying to figure this all out, I spoke to a friend who fixes helicopters ( helicopter-A large mass of vibration held together by fatigue and fear of flight). He told me to try putting a set of accelerometers on the machine and use a strobe to see if I could find what was vibrating.
    Well, that was an interesting experiment, but it didn't show much.
    BUT during that work we tried a couple of thing.
    I ran the lathe and set the speed control at the worst vibration. I can set the speed and switch on/off /rev, without changing speed.
    I took the drive belts off the motor, and ran the machine. Better??? Tried several combinations of belt setups (there are 3 sets of 3 belts) back to the same vibrations. This lead us to wonder about the motor pulley.
    I took the motor pulley off the machine and mounted it on a shaft and put it between centers on my other lathe. I put a dial indicator on it and it ran out at over 3x the machinery handbook recommendations. Strange! This pulley was balanced within 3 grams. It is a Browning product as far as I can tell. It is original to the lathe.

    I then turned the OD of the pulley "round" and did the same with the belt grooves. It took nearly 0.100" to get it all running true.
    Reinstall on the lathe. MUCH better, but not perfect.
    I removed it and checked the balance. Way off!.
    This pulley had been balanced at the factory by drilling a series of hole in the center v groove to remove material for balancing. There were 8, 1/4dia x .350 deep holes in it. To get it back into balance I plugged 6 of those holes with steel plugs. That brought it to within 3 grams .
    Put it back on the machine, and tried it. Not quite eureka, but close.

    At the lower speeds the machine ran great, but approaching 2500 rpm I started to get a bit of vibration again. I looked at the motor/ pulley/belts, and I "thought " I could see the belts vibrating. I checked the belt tension, and it was a bit loose, so I cranked it a bit tighter. Tried again. Better but not perfect yet.
    I double checked the main spindle belts, which are a bit long and hard to get at. Could be a bit tighter, so fixed that. Tried again.
    AH HA!! vibration is substantially gone!

    So, this is what I think was happening. The out of round pulley was causing the belts to "pulse" at certain speeds and that was setting up a harmonic vibration. Putting the machine on the rubber mounts changed that harmonic. Once I found and fixed the pulley, the remaining vibration was caused by a couple of slack belts.

    Only took me a year to figure out that I should not have assumed that the pulley was OK just because it was in balance.

    Now I can move on to completing the remaining "repairs'

    Pete

  18. Likes thermite, kpotter, Alain liked this post
  19. #177
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Louisville, KY, USA
    Posts
    3,245
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    5
    Likes (Received)
    152

    Default

    Not the same situation, but I've had similar experiences. I've learned that throwing money at something is not always the "right"* thing to do; look at it as "machine college" tuition.

    * The DC drives in my first 1st 30" 10EE, spent a small fortune and got nowhere. That's when the VFD went in.
    Harry

  20. #178
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Marathon City WI, USA
    Posts
    842
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    40
    Likes (Received)
    236

    Default

    Pete,
    Vibration analysis as you have learned is a art. I am not at all good at it, but I have worked with some 30 year veterns on two different environments. The first was at marathon electric-diagnosing vibration problems in electric motors, both mechanical and electrical. With three acelerometers, this guy could tell me if it was the ball in the bearing, the race-inner or outer, the rotor. In seconds, just by knowing what speeds everything moved at. Things like the balls in the bearing move at different rates, etc. Fast forward to my papermaking career, and these guys from a vibration anasis company would come in, and hear vibrations through the machine, again, by the frequency. The felts may have a lump in them, causing un-needed repairs-replace the felt. These guys really were an asset for these repairs. In your vibration case, I would put money on it that it would have taken a couple hours to solve your issue by following the frequencies. Not that I am downplaying your repair-I would be doing the same thing, but something to keep in mind for machines making big money.
    Joe

  21. #179
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    North Carolina
    Posts
    1,937
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    162
    Likes (Received)
    387

    Default

    Pete- Love that you found a solution,
    being that the pulley was machined out
    of round, then balanced to zero. What a
    low ball dirty trick on the part of Browning.
    Must not have had that spec as part of their
    QC, just balance I guess. I would have never
    figured on something like that. But after reading
    it here, I will remember your tale for ever.
    Q? Anyone use Fenner Power Twist link belts
    on their spindle? They seem pretty heavy duty.
    Saves from pulling the spinde.
    Bob also had a balance issue. Anyone hear from
    him if his issue was the same? All our lathes have
    Browning pulleys I assume.
    --Doozer


Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •