How to remove the carriage (serie 61)
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    Default How to remove the carriage (series 61)

    I decided the only way to clean the oiling system in the carriage of this series 61 is to remove the carriage.
    What is the best plan for taking the carriage off?
    1: Remove the bolts to the apron and leave the apron hanging on the feedbars/lead-screw while I pick the carriage straight up off the ways?
    2: Remove the feedbar/lead-screw block at the tailstock end and then just wind the carriage right off the end while caching it with a hoist?
    Last edited by ToolCat; 02-04-2008 at 02:06 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve L View Post
    I decided the only way to clean the oiling system in the carriage of this series 61 is to remove the carriage.
    What is the best plan for taking the carriage off?
    1: Remove the bolts to the apron and leave the apron hanging on the feedbars/lead-screw while I pick the carriage straight up off the ways?
    2: Remove the feedbar/lead-screw block at the tailstock end and then just wind the carriage right off the end while caching it with a hoist?
    Steve removing the carriage is a pretty big job, I would make sure that it is not just a bad pump which can be remove with out a lot of difficulty be draing the oil and carefully removing the cover on the bottom of the apron. But if you have to: To remove the carriage you will have to remove all the shafts and lead screw. The lead screw is tough because there is not much clearance between the bearing carrier and the bed. Then put some sort of support under the apron portion so that you can lower it 3"-4", now you can move it out of the way. There is one gear which you need to clear from the top, it runs the power crossfeed. Once you have that clear you need to remove the 2 rear gibb assembles, center gibb assemble, carriage clamp lefthand side and the carriage binder clamp. The LH carriage clamp is not accessable with with the apron in place, and this is what prevent the carriage from being lifted straight up.Or once you do have the apron and carriage seperated the carriage can be slid off the end of the. These parts are HEAVY so be careful.
    You will have to remove the compound to inspect the lines which oil that part of the slides, I have found those tubes to be plugged or rusted through. The oil connection between the 2 parts is an "O"ring which is could be a problem. You can get to this area if you unbolt everything and let the apron sage on the shafts. Pry up on the carriage it won't move much but you can check the oring, it's on the right front side near the second bolt from the right. These instructions are for a 16"& 20" the 13" may be different. G'day zeo

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    Thank you Zeo. Yup, maybe I should do more testing and make sure I cann't get things flowing before resorting to removing the carriage.

    So to that end what I have done so far for testing of the flow is to remove the pump. I then connected up a hand pump and tried to pump degreaser through the system by connecting direct to the line. No luck though. I thought degreaser would be coming out everywhere but it doesn't come out anywhere I can see. Any ideas?

    Another question: Take a look at the threaded hole I drew an arrow to in the attached picture. There was no bolt or plug in this hole and it was jammed full of crap. Does this hole lead right in to the oil passageways?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails _dsc3633.jpg  

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    That hole is an attachment point for the follow rest. There are 2 others on the carriage wings.
    Harry

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve L View Post
    Thank you Zeo. Yup, maybe I should do more testing and make sure I cann't get things flowing before resorting to removing the carriage.

    So to that end what I have done so far for testing of the flow is to remove the pump. I then connected up a hand pump and tried to pump degreaser through the system by connecting direct to the line. No luck though. I thought degreaser would be coming out everywhere but it doesn't come out anywhere I can see. Any ideas?

    Another question: Take a look at the threaded hole I drew an arrow to in the attached picture. There was no bolt or plug in this hole and it was jammed full of crap. Does this hole lead right in to the oil passageways?
    What size is this lathe and was it in not maintaned? Has it ever been rebuilt or worked on? If so the Left hand carriage clamp may have been left off durning reassembly. It it's very hard to see up in there but you can make it out. If nothing else when you go to remove the top and it comes off that part is missing your home free you don't have to remove the apron.
    If you are not getting any oil to any of the ports I would suspect that the main line from the pump is obstructed or that the pump is not doing it's thing. The next thing to do is seperate the apron and carriage enought to break the seal, then pump some oil in through the main line to see if there is any flow if not flush the line out till it clears.
    In order to get and fluid through these lines you have to have a pump that will deliver a constant pressure over a considerable amont of time if there is no oil in the lines to start with. There are three manifold under the carriage two you can not get at without removing the carriage the other one you can see if you slide the chip pan out of the way an get under the lathe and look to the center of the carriage.
    You will see a brass manifold with 6 lines coming out of it. they lube the flat ways left and right, the inside flat way, the other 2 lube the dovetail. These lines are very small and easy to kink. You can see these lines running on each side of the channel that the crosslide screw sets in, becareful not to try and clean out this area with anything that can flatt en or puncture these tubes but do inspect them for damage. There is a larger line which is the supply line if you loosen the bolts that hold the manifold in place you can crack the line enough to see in it is getting any lub when you pressurize the system. G'day zeo

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    The believe bed ways have oil going to them. The cross slide does not.

    I am filling about 6 foot of tubing with mineral spirts and then attaching it to the main line. The other end I connect to 40psi from the air compressor. Most of the solvent and air is coming out in the appron. It appears to be coming out somewhere up high on the left in the appron. There must be an oiler tube up in there that oils a gear. If I listen carful I can hear air escaping on the bed ways. There is zero air or solvent coming out of the two holes that oil the cross slide.

    I can see the hand carriage clamp in the appron is there.

    Next, I will remove the main line going to the brass manifold and see if there is oil or solvent coming to there.

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    Why is there a coil of wire in my apron? In the one pic you can see a piece of wire twisted holding the coil together. What the heck? I can see the end of it and it looks like it is copper tubing. The end is squished flat.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails .jpg   b.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve L View Post
    The believe bed ways have oil going to them. The cross slide does not.

    I am filling about 6 foot of tubing with mineral spirts and then attaching it to the main line. The other end I connect to 40psi from the air compressor. Most of the solvent and air is coming out in the appron. It appears to be coming out somewhere up high on the left in the appron. There must be an oiler tube up in there that oils a gear. If I listen carful I can hear air escaping on the bed ways. There is zero air or solvent coming out of the two holes that oil the cross slide.

    I can see the hand carriage clamp in the appron is there.

    Next, I will remove the main line going to the brass manifold and see if there is oil or solvent coming to there.
    Yes there are line which run in the apron that do oil gears I am not sure how many if there is a broken line in there the pressure will find the path of least resistance and you won't get any oil to the other manifolds because there are also metering units for each line which need a slight bit of pressure to operate. But if you don't think this is the case there is a manifold on the left underside of the carriage which I think is the main supply line to the manifold that you can from under the carriage. It is possible that if the carriage has been removed that this line could have been pinched off durning assembly. The vee ways are lubed from 2 different manifolds one the left and one the right so if you can determin which side it is come from you can tell which manifold is functioning. G'day zeo

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    Is it possible to remove the front plate off the entire front of the apron without removing the apron from the bed first? If so, that would make it easy to get to the additional manifolds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve L View Post
    Is it possible to remove the front plate off the entire front of the apron without removing the apron from the bed first? If so, that would make it easy to get to the additional manifolds.
    Steve I don't think it help because there is not enought room in there to get a wrench on the fittings. That coil of tubing should not be there. Looks to me like this machine is has been worked on so the probability of the left hand carriage clamp was not reinstalled is very high, you can pick the carriage straight off. This clamp is located in line with carriage handwheel. Where in NE. are you? I am close to Omaha and currently have a 61 apart in my shop if you need a closer look at what you are up against let me know. G'day zeo

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    Zeo, I am seeing the left hand carriage clamp. I'm in Kearney. It would be helpful to come see you when the snow stops falling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve L View Post
    Zeo, I am seeing the left hand carriage clamp. I'm in Kearney. It would be helpful to come see you when the snow stops falling.
    Steve I will PM you with me info. There is only one line running across the cross slide screw. It goes from the first manifold crosses over to the 2nd manifold oils the vee way on the left side of the carriage.
    If you will look @ the manifold on the bottom of the apron you will see 6 ports there are 4 that are in a row. The one on the right is the one which is the supply line to the carriage try an hook you pumping system to it and see what happens. That line that is the picture is either a feed line to a mannifold. If its about .1540 is a main supply line or about .0930 it's a feed line to the way. G'day zeo

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    I'm pulling the lead screw. I have it up to this point in the photo. What is the next step? I need to take the gear off the end but there is no way to pull it out any further to get to the nut. It looks like a spanner nut. Any tricks to getting to the nut?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails leadscrew-remove.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve L View Post
    I'm pulling the lead screw. I have it up to this point in the photo. What is the next step? I need to take the gear off the end but there is no way to pull it out any further to get to the nut. It looks like a spanner nut. Any tricks to getting to the nut?
    No trick you have to take the top off the Quick change and you might have to loosen spindle speed selector face plate also and go inside it's tight. I have done it this way, but I am thinking you can remove the side cover and that might do it. There is a tab lock washer you have bend back be careful not to drop the gear and nut in the QC. G'day zeo

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    If you don't have the manual, I would suggest you call Monarch and get one. It looks like your lathe has rapids travels.
    Harry

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    Quote Originally Posted by beckley23 View Post
    If you don't have the manual, I would suggest you call Monarch and get one. It looks like your lathe has rapids travels.
    Harry
    Steve, Harry is right you do have rapids I should have picked up on that when you asked about removing the front cover of the apronwhich the nonrapids donot have. Also the manual will give an idea of whats going on in there, but there is no info on disassembly etc. By the looks of that last picture you can crank the apron off the end of the bed and not pull the lead screw out. Careful it weighs a ton.
    What size is you late the 13" is a little diffrent from the 16&20" which are the same. G'day zeo

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    Lead screw is out. Thanks Zeo. Yes, I have manuals from Monarch matching the serial number.

    It is a 16" with rapids. Tomorrow I'll be taking the taper attachment off. After that I should be ready to drop the apron.

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    Where is the best place to attach a shop crane to support and let the apron down carefully? Thought about running a bar through the lead screw nut and hanging on there, but I hate to support it there as it could damage the nut.

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    I pulled and rebuilt a Series 612 apron that is probably of same design. Here are some bits of info that may help you in thinking through this.

    First, pulling the apron/saddle is not hard but it does require a hoist or such for support. To remove the apron, you'll have to remove the control rods and leadscrew as you already know. You 'can' slide the apron/saddle off the end of the bed without removing the rods but I don't recommend it. You’ll need an engine hoist or forklift to go this route plus an additional hand to keep the system from binding up when you slide it off. (I did it this way the first and it's much easier to remove the rods first.) The leadscrew has a bearing assembly that is held on by a spanner nut. You'll have to slide the leadscrew out of the gearbox to get to the spanner nut. As you said, slide a piece of round stock through the highest hole in the apron, apply tension, then remove the 8 or so cap screws holding the apron to the saddle. Lower and pull away the apron (you have to clear the carriage wheel spur gear from the rack gear).

    Second, the apron/saddle oiling system....hmmm.....not the easiest to describe nor troubleshoot. On my 612, the oiling system is run off the rapid traverse while on my 62, it is run off a cam on the carriage wheel (no rapid traverse). What system do you have? This oiling system is not a simple group of copper lines but instead is a dynamic system that oils certain parts when certain levers are used. For instance, there is an oil line that oils the half-nut, but only when the half-nut is engaged. Only when the oil ports in the half-nut are lined up via engagement will the oil flow. In addition, the crosslide feed and carriage feed gears are oiled via 'valves' that are operated via those handles. From memory, I remember the following items oiled via this system: the cross slide and carriage feed gearing/bearings in the apron, the half-nut, the worm gear, the shoe that slides on the bed face, the cross slide ways, the cross slide handle, the front vee and back flat ways (bearing on the bed, and the inside flat way that doesn't bear on the bed. The coiled tubing you show above is nothing but a simple pressure regulator, commonly called a capillary tube.* Underneath the saddle there are bijur flowlimiters that should be replaced (don't bother trying to clean them). Again, this is not a simple system but you should be getting oil out of each port on the bed ways at all times. If not, check the flowlimiters, if you can get to them.

    Oh, by the way, the Monarch manuals don't describe nor show the oiling system lines. You'll have to decipher the oiling lines yourself.

    * A capillary system is just a long, thin tube that provides a lot of resistance to a fluid pumped through it. The length and diameter of the tube coupled with the viscosity of the fluid provide a certain backpressure, thus regulating system's fluid pressure. You should have some oil dripping out of your capillary tube during normal operation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve L View Post
    Where is the best place to attach a shop crane to support and let the apron down carefully? Thought about running a bar through the lead screw nut and hanging on there, but I hate to support it there as it could damage the nut.
    Steve I had a hydraulic die table that I used, but you should be able to wrape a nylon sling around the center of the carriage. Be sure to remove the 3 gibbs form under the carriage. You did remove the taper attachment? G'day zeo
    Misread your question, I but a hydraulic cart under the apron and dropped it down 3-4", but if you don't have one you could use a floorjack with some help. I don't think you have the leadscrew revese option on yours if you do running a bar through there wouldn't hurt anything. You could also use the hole the rapid travers shaft came out of.


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