Infrequent random squeak/chirp/ from 10EE spindle nose...

My new 1977 10EE is a dream come true. Cuts perfectly. No wired chatter, vibration, or inaccuracy during heavy & light cuts. Threading is unbeatable.

THAT SAID:

It randomly lets out a little, tiny, short lived metallic squeak. Chirp/squeal/squeak lasts maybe .25 second, then a quieter short squeak after that. Maybe 3 or 4 of these chirps and sound is gone for an hour or more. Most often happens after stopping & starting again.

The focal point is right at the front spindle plate. Exactly where the front bearing sits.

Again, the machining is a dream! No “bad spindle bearing” issues of any kind show in the work this lathe can produce.

BUT I think that noise means take the spindle out & take a look.
I keep thinking it’s a sound resonating from belts, back gear, apron, gearbox...
But it cannot be. The squeak is most clear and loud right at the spindle nose.

Surely I shouldn’t use the lathe until I tear it apart! But that isn’t the answer I want! Is there any possibility of that noise coming from the tacho gear, or clutch dogs??? I know, prolly not.
I couldn’t resist asking.
I have flushed the headstock but will clean it again.

I want soooo badly to hear “just ignore the infrequent, VERY short-lived squeak”. I fear that isn’t going to happen.

Any help/scolding appreciated.

I think you should do some systematic testing, it might suggest the cause. i.e. does it happen at low rpms, high rpms, under load, in reverse, while accelerating,... Have you tried putting a stethoscope near the spindle while it is running? Have you had the top off and done a visual inspection? You can run it briefly with the top off, but there is a lot of oil splash. You might want to remove the feed belt just to eliminate some noise. Are the belts slipping? Is the tension the same on both belts? Try adjusting the belt tension or replacing the belts if they are hardened. Are the idler pulley bearings in good shape?

Yes to load, no load, reverse, any rpm. The squeak sounds exactly like an end mill turning 1/2 turn in a loose collet.

The belt & tensioner area makes random noises, but this sound is straight from the very front end of the headstock.

I’ll do more testing as you suggested right now.

Freak, I’ve had it on for 30 min no chuck, multiple RPM & direction, then 20 min heavy cutting & hasn’t made the squeak once.

Temp at front of headstock was 60F at start, now only 77F.

Only difference is I overfilled the headstock after 10 minutes of running at 1200RPM. That is probably not the best thing to do. Later I will take the cover off and look around.

The only places I can think of metal to metal rubbing contact are these:

the oil dam at the rear of the front bearing compartment (if it is not all the way home), the oil slinger, the lock nut for the bearing cartridge (and lock tabs)
something that doesn't belong
the shift forks for the reverse gear
the bushings for the dog clutches (I've seen those seize up due to lack of lubrication, but only on round dial machines)

Also try running it with the threading control set for reverse, so that the bushings are getting exercised the opposite direction, and the rear shift rod is in a different location.

When you have the top off, look to see how well the lubrication is working. There is a lot of splash, and catch basins and oil lines directing oil to the dog clutches and tachometer gear shafts, etc., so make sure its squeaky clean and there is nothing blocking the oil lines.

Maybe the machine just sat a long time and your oil overfill did the trick...

-Dave

Thanks a bunch! I will check those.
You really got me thinking about the reverse gear forks, since it is a noticeable clack when I cycle FWD/REV over and over.

All of the steps your shared are VERY helpful.

I will diligently follow those leads.

Posers like me would be NOWHERE without the info you guys share here.

I think it will be something with the bearings, maybe a bit of junk getting in between the roller and making it slide on the bearing race.
Possibly a oil change may clean that out or not.

So it would not be unreasonable to think bearings need replacing at the age it is. With unknown usage history by others.

Be prepared to put a new set in is all i say. But thats my best guess.

Street said:

I think it will be something with the bearings, maybe a bit of junk getting in between the roller and making it slide on the bearing race.
Possibly a oil change may clean that out or not.

So it would not be unreasonable to think bearings need replacing at the age it is. With unknown usage history by others.

Be prepared to put a new set in is all i say. But thats my best guess.

Click to expand...

The 10EE front spindle bearings are the very scary elephant in the room. This is mostly me grasping at any tiny possible straw that could mean it is other than a bearing spinning in its race.

Yesterday I took sessions resting my left ear close to belt drive area, middle of headstock/tach area, then close to the front. Did lots of start & stops at each of these positions and it was glaringly noticeable just left of the spindle nose. Repeatedly. I was almost unable to hear the chirp at any of the other spots.
But I shouldn't be assuming that is therefore accurate enough, especially the part where I'm trusting my ears by themselves. I seemed methodical at the time!

A long shot would be the motor brushes. The belts wont transfer sound into the casting but mounting bolts could. Doubtful but just one thing to eliminate by removing a cover.

Carefully use a wooden dowel to listen for noises.

Hal

thermite said:

9 dollar HF mechanic's stethoscope, length of handy PVC pipe, rad hose, wooden dowel... all ends up at human ear.

EVEN IF.. the hearing is good... who wants to hang on the end of the "device" doing nothing ELSE until the infrequent and intermittent sound decides to occur?

There's the REAL problem. Can't do two things at once when they are in different places.

Just set up to record it.

THEN you can go ahead and run the machine in ways that might trigger it.

Click to expand...

Mechanics stethascope #1
A long 1/2 or 3/8 ratchet extension works great. Cup your ear to the female end.

thermite said:

Any of a number of things "work".

It's the idea of sitting there like a friggin' statue - one thumb in yer mouth, the other up yer a**.. for ten minutes at ago trying to AMBUSH the intermittent and unpredictable sound - or for someone in charge to shout "SWITCH!"

... that I can't see..

'minds me. Duty calls:

Brer' "donie"?

SWITCH!

Click to expand...

Bill
A little deviance is showing through.

Back to the squeak in the machine. Chasing a noise can be difficult.
You dont want to take it apart if not needed.

It sounds like evidence is indeed pointing to the spindle bearings, or at least the need to remove the spindle. But first do the visual inspection with the top off the headstock, see how clean it is, etc.

If you end up needing spindle bearings please contact me, I may still have a source at a reasonable price.

I'm going to agree with Thermite here. Sounds are potentially hard to accurately identify. And, having spent the money and effort to replace the spindle bearings, I would continue to investigate for a while. If the bearings are ruined then you don't have to worry about ruining them.

Case in point. For months I had a fluorescent ballast whine in my workshop with 8 overhead fixtures. I repeatedly felt the ballasts for vibration, changed tubes, got up in the attic to listen up there. After many months I thought I had it identified to a resonance in the galvanized hvac ducting in the attic.

Then I loosened the spindle belt on my SB heavy 10 one day for some other reason and the whine stopped...Somehow the belt was getting energy and then the tubular steel cabinet was resonating, even with the KB DC drive turned off. I leave the drive off when I am not using the lathe.

I have no idea what was exciting the SB bend, on an intermittent basis, for months. Something... We hadn't had any earthquakes here in Vegas for months, the machine is on McMaster levelers on concrete slab. Both my wife and I would have sworn the noise was coming from the ceiling.

Now when I am not using the SB I loosen the belt.

Here's a bit of info:

The oil line running to front spindle bearings was just leaning against its hole in the oil trough that feeds the lines. I barely touched the line and it moved clear of the trough. It might be possible oil wasn't making its way inside the line, more wicking down the outside of it?

Either way, removed & cleaned it and then formed it to fit. Line was exceptionally clean inside.

Did some CAREFUL vacuuming, multiple kerosene flushes, two spindle oil flushes, and it is back in service. So far no squeak has shown, but it has only been one hour of run time.

SIDE NOTE: The small hole at the bottom of the front spindle nose wept kerosene & a bit of oil after setting the line fully inside the trough. This lathe has always been dry there, and it has not been blocked or clogged (don't ask how I know). I believe I read here it is not necessarily a weep hole, but I was VERY happy to see it weep! I figured it was a sign that fluids moved that direction! (If I remember right, running the spindle in reverse seemed to nudge the drops to weep out).

What was I thinking never visually checking inside the headstock before running? Originally I flushed the headstock multiple times. Drainage came out so surprisingly clean and I figured "all good"!

For anyone else with an IQ as low as mine: If you get yourself a(nother) Monarch, check the headstock innards visually regardless of how excellent you think it is. I did this on my others, but obviously not this one. Ridiculous!

I devoted so much effort put into servicing the the apron oil system, getting the Modular drive to work, and making the ELSR usable...and yet I never opened up and looked into the headstock???

If the oil line was indeed the cause, I cringe thinking about the years taken off of the lives of those bearings. As of right now, it is back to cutting exceptionally without a surprise chirp forcing me to turn it off.

Thanks for the wisdom and advice either way. I'm glad I cannot get the sound to repeat, but if it ever shows up again I will start on diligent sound checking. So far, the very random, fleeting sound stopped when I overfilled the spindle yesterday. And hasn't started since the line repair & serious flushing today.



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It looks like a couple of your oil lines might need replacing due to kinks:

rimcanyon said:

It looks like a couple of your oil lines might need replacing due to kinks:

View attachment 309339

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They bugged me also. I’m positive they were installed that way by Monarch; anyone else have the bends this tight?