Intermittent starting problem 1945 10EE MG - Page 4
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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by lectrician1 View Post
    i have the exciter. what do i do with it?
    Check to see if all the windings are continuous, not shorted, no sign of fire, stink of burn phenolic, etc.

    Could was, all it needs is a cleanup, commutator dressed, brush holders seen to, new brushes fitted.

    As you are running the REST of the MG anyway, may as well do it right, and by the drawings, end-to-end.

    Among other reasons, it would make it faster and easier for others to help you, bog-standard 10EE of WHICHEVER era- instead of mixed-components,

    The other benefit is that you "should" get better load regulation. Reliance & Monarch tuned all that stuff to play well together, MG, WiaD, Modular, etc.. They surely had more depth of experience and test budget than we chikn's.

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    I'll take a look at the exciter tomorrow or monday.
    I think the lathe is running great with the power supply though
    As good as any of the other 3 MGs that I've had.
    It runs and stops better than the VFD I've had.
    I fit that 7.5" chuck on there. I had to cut about 5/8" off the OD of that 8.25" D1-3 back plate.
    I was taking a hefty cut in belt feed and the machine didn't blink.
    The belts slipped once though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lectrician1 View Post
    I'll take a look at the exciter tomorrow or monday.
    I think the lathe is running great with the power supply though
    As good as any of the other 3 MGs that I've had.
    It runs and stops better than the VFD I've had.
    I fit that 7.5" chuck on there. I had to cut about 5/8" off the OD of that 8.25" D1-3 back plate.
    I was taking a hefty cut in belt feed and the machine didn't blink.
    The belts slipped once though.
    Lotta power if they - AND the sheaves - are in decent shape and reasonably well-tensioned if you were able to slip them. Diameter of the sheaves? "A" section belt should be good for about 5 HP.

    Each belt.

    See to the wear on the motor and spindle 'loominum alloy pulleys. Good alloy, not ZAMAK, but even so, they wear a LOT more than proper Cast Iron ones do.

    Also... cast a comparison-eyeball on your small compound rest and the puny 2 MT TS & small keyway in it.

    Designers were sending a message.

    Stiff lathe. Very. So it don't MOVE. On small parts. At reasonable loading.

    Get greedy, that Dinosaur Current motor can put a world of hurt on an overly optimistic tool-up.

    Wasn't their only lathe, y'see. everything else Monarch made was HEAVIER YET, same era and onward. 12C-, 16C- .....all the way to Series 90.


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    there was probably oil based lube/cleaner splashed on that lower sheave. I flushed the back gear a few times with kerosene before i took it apart. Also wd40 was sprayed all around the headstock compartment to cut through the grease. that could've caused that split second stall of those belts

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    OK. I can see how the break in the rheostat would cause the spindle to have problems coming up to speed. Once the rheostat hits the open spot, the spindle motor looses field and may not have enough torque to come up to speed. But I DO NOT see how that can cause such a load on the generator that it will slow down. Unfortunately, you didn't make the current readings that I asked for, so figuring out what the chain of events was remains a mystery.

    So until someone explains exactly how this works, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say, no, the arcing in the rheostat didn't directly cause the motor/generator to slow down.

    Cal
    mmmmm, crow, tasty . . .

    Many thanks to my mentor, Bill (hitanmiss), for taking the time to straighten me out on this one.

    Sorry that I've been absent for a few days. I had a busy weekend.

    Apparently the problem has gotten worse over time. Back in post #8, Rich reported that the field voltage was behaving normally and not dropping to zero. But based on the photo of the rheostat, the break had progressed to a complete open an would have resulted in a total field loss above that point on the speed control. I think that the reason we haven't seen this problem before is because the FA relay would normally kick in and get the spindle started, so the MG would never slow down like that.

    Rich, did you ever look at the back of the DC control panel to see if the series windings on the FA relay were jumpered across? If the series windings were open, the machine wouldn't run, since those windings are in series with the armature. I guess the series windings could be shorted internally, but I would think that there would be some obvious signs of that.

    Rich, Please post a photo of your repair to the rheostat and explain what you did.

    This thread has information about checking out an exciter: 10EE - No Exciter Voltage

    Cal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    Rich, did you ever look at the back of the DC control panel to see if the series windings on the FA relay were jumpered across? If the series windings were open, the machine wouldn't run, since those windings are in series with the armature. I guess the series windings could be shorted internally, but I would think that there would be some obvious signs of that.
    It is not impossible the windings are fine, not jumpered, either.

    Fault causing the FA to not operate as expected COULD be right out in plain view and reach on the armature and contacts side, too- just not blinding obvious to a "relay unfamiliar" person.

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    cal
    I did not find the FA windings jumped in back on the DC panel. everything looked normal.
    I reinstalled the rheostat and didn't take any pics of the repair but i am thinking of buying Bills rheostat and replacing the repaired one. even though it works fine.

    basically i cut out about 6 adjacent wraps of the rheostat wire. there were multiple breaks. i couldn't solder the wire. solder wouldn't stick.
    on my unit they used different types of wire about every two inches or so. some of the wraps were silver colored wire and others were copper colored.
    IDK why they used different types of wire but there was a pattern about every two inches. . All my breaks were in a silver wire section. So i guess the silver wire was more brittle than the copper. where the different wires joined, there was a lug. I was able to get solder to stick to the lugs. So i just soldered a copper jumper across the broken section of silver wire wraps. Then i needed to fill in the section of the contact area where i removed the wraps so the contact would glide over smoothly. I fit a piece of 1/16 copper plate in the empty section and epoxied it in. i thought the copper plate would be a dead zone so i soldered a jumper from the copper plate to the original copper jumper. a picture is worth a thousand words. maybe ill take it apart and take a pic. BTW i got the exciter working. going to install tomorrow and remove the power supply.
    '

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    Quote Originally Posted by lectrician1 View Post
    BTW i got the exciter working. going to install tomorrow and remove the power supply.
    '
    The best news about that.. is that you are putting the 10EE back to OEM. "As built".

    Which means.. we all have the same drawings and experience. That makes it easier to assist each other.

    Whether the useful-for-bench-tests PSU was good enough or NOT, it is hard to know if no one else had the same model, nor was even 100% certain how it had been wired-in.

    Go by the Monarch pubs when you wire-in the exciter.

    Make sure there are no alterations or shortcuts. Make it "as built" and everyone's job gets easier, faster, less confusing - your own tasking, most of all.

  10. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by lectrician1 View Post
    cal
    I did not find the FA windings jumped in back on the DC panel. everything looked normal.
    I reinstalled the rheostat and didn't take any pics of the repair but i am thinking of buying Bills rheostat and replacing the repaired one. even though it works fine.

    basically i cut out about 6 adjacent wraps of the rheostat wire. there were multiple breaks. i couldn't solder the wire. solder wouldn't stick.
    on my unit they used different types of wire about every two inches or so. some of the wraps were silver colored wire and others were copper colored.
    IDK why they used different types of wire but there was a pattern about every two inches. . All my breaks were in a silver wire section. So i guess the silver wire was more brittle than the copper. where the different wires joined, there was a lug. I was able to get solder to stick to the lugs. So i just soldered a copper jumper across the broken section of silver wire wraps. Then i needed to fill in the section of the contact area where i removed the wraps so the contact would glide over smoothly. I fit a piece of 1/16 copper plate in the empty section and epoxied it in. i thought the copper plate would be a dead zone so i soldered a jumper from the copper plate to the original copper jumper. a picture is worth a thousand words. maybe ill take it apart and take a pic. BTW i got the exciter working. going to install tomorrow and remove the power supply.
    '
    OK.. i just took a strong LED flash and eyeballed all three sets I have here.

    One out of my '42, knpwn to have been running on 3-Phase, prior owner having posted on PM about a shitfer fork issues, etc.

    One still In my '44,

    One that came out of round-dial that Maynah parted-out.

    All three - six rheostats - have a uniform dull grey metallic appearance on the slider track. Nothing Coppery.

    All three are "terminal free" except at the ends.

    There appear to be quadrants, not just the "known" half linear, half fixed resistance. But the ends of the resistance wire are terminated/tied in neat, tight, twists then tucked down the inside face, barely noticeable.

    Six rheostats is not definitive, but it may be the best we can find in one place on short-notice.

    What you MAY have is a Rheostat someone repaired or tried to change the characteristics of.

    Do both of yours even match in appearance?

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    now you're making me take it out and take pics

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    Quote Originally Posted by lectrician1 View Post
    now you're making me take it out and take pics
    I could see MOST of even the one still inside the machine. Certainly enough to confirm that in all three cases, both of the pair are a visual match ,and none have any terminals save what are at the ends, only nearly hidden wrapped-down twists.

    I'm expecting these "terminals" you were able to solder to may not exist on the other doughnut in the pair.

    More than one klew this puppy had been patched before - may even be ALL "patch".

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    I'm only getting 105v dc out of the exciter. I have the variable resistor in series with the shunt field at its lowest setting about 2.5 ohms.
    Frankly the machine ran better with the power supply at 115vdc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lectrician1 View Post
    I'm only getting 105v dc out of the exciter. I have the variable resistor in series with the shunt field at its lowest setting about 2.5 ohms.
    Frankly the machine ran better with the power supply at 115vdc.
    Don't write it off just yet. Wait for better advice.

    There are folks on PM far more familiar with its care and feeding than either of us.

    Also don't be too sure the rest of the machine is in proper health. More than a few hints already it has been subject to a general messing-with.

    So long as you have a fair "visual memory" of how what I have come to believe is a band-aid-patched Rheostat LOOKED whilst you were working on it?

    You should be able to find existing fotos "right here on PM" and be able to tell if they look the same.

    I still say your least-hassle way forward is to FIRST do the best and most accurate restoral to factory "as built" as possible.

    Then you will have a working 10EE "for sure" and a sound baseline of experience.

    I'm adding a "saddlebag" this very day to ship one of the two I have spare WITH a complete MG he'd bought from another PM member .. to ... another PM member.

    His 10EE had been gutted for an early-days whole tribe of loose DC Drives and support goods. I'm sure it "seemed like a good idea at the time".

    "Your" Rheostat set, if you want it, weighs 14 lbs avoir before packaging.
    It has the mounts, so "bolt in", but no chain sprocket on it. Those parts you DO have in good order.

    You can ALWAYS depart the envelope and go "out of the box" experimenting LATER.
    I run my Field at 140 VDC, max, for example. Low-end Torque thing.

    Experimenting might not be free, nor even cheap, though. DAMHIKT!


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    ok send me the rheostats and ill send you a check.
    i think i sent you my address

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    Quote Originally Posted by lectrician1 View Post
    ok send me the rheostats and ill send you a check.
    i think i sent you my address
    B'lieve we have the email, but "ping me" a confirmation. Lot of traffic going across my local LAN of late.

    The set both look OK, but pay me when you have it WORKING.

    Ask me to test and fix?

    Why ...I might divert first-class air and five star lodging by way of Bandar Seri Begawan, Darussalam, Brunei... just out of ingrained muscle-memory!

    Sultan was of a mind to become the "Switzerland of the Muslim world" as to financial transactions - had put in enough heavy lifter telco switches in a dual-ring redundant scheme to have easily run most of the traffic of the entire Russian Federation during a major war.

    Go figure no one took the bait, yah had to hide-out in an "exempt" Chinese eatery, pay a 90 US$ fine to order an ignorant glass of red wine with a meal.

    And that was BEFORE he "got religion" more recently!

    You'd have to know Derivatives Traders and Hedge Fund manglers? Or maybe just Muslim heavy drinkers?


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    You know Bill sometimes I wish we spoke the same language

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    thermite, I sent you a pm with my address

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    Quote Originally Posted by lectrician1 View Post
    thermite, I sent you a pm with my address
    "PM PM" TRY to go into an always-full box, Rich. Can't be bothered to mess with it.

    Confirming I have your 'real' email and with a ship-to address.

    "stand by".

    I'll be "on it" as soon as I have the larger Fastenal shipment sorted.

    Bill


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