Jim's 10ee rebuild thread - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcgyver View Post
    There's always backlash, unless there is an antibacklash arrangement. Backlash is the clearance that lets the parts move. Backlash doesn't matter to operation, but it is a indicator of overall wear, which is I guess why lots get concerned about it. Even wear on the screw is easily compensated for, provided you measure/cut vs relying on the dial for accuracy over a long distance.

    We can disagree that the nut wears faster, experience suggests with a bronze nut that is not always so. See photo, screw is about ready to disappear over a considerable length, nut is far from perfect but is holding its own. Main reason imo for replacing the nut is to make sure you're starting clean without a nut with embedded crap ready to wear the new screw.

    It would be useful to see that nut, sectioned.

    It doesn't look like Aluminium Bronze or Nickel Aluminium Bronze, but much as I actually LIKE the stuff and keep it around? The screw is a good example of what those can do even with NO added trash. Abrasive alloys, both, and legendary hard on their mating surface if not well-supplied with lube.

    Legacy "bearing" bronze far the wiser choice. Easier to tap as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rke[pler View Post
    If I recall correctly the thread dial can be worked out the top of the apron, or at least loosened by removing the screws around it on the top of the apron.
    Some 10EE have a set screw that retains the thread dial, in addition to the 4 screws in the top, it is accessible from the front of the apron.

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  5. #23
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    Holy Toledo, the wear on the screw Macguyver posted! Thankful mine does not look like that. I will need to degrease and inspect my screw and then will decide whether to replace. The nut will get replaced.

    More progress today. Looks like about 0.008" clearance between the carriage and ways, so acceptable wear overall. Loosening the thread dial screws did the trick to get the leadscrew out; getting the SHCS out of the feed rod clutch was a PITA but patience won out. I would estimate the weight of the apron at 65-70 lbs. and glad I used a progression of longer 3/8-16 bolts to lower it slowly until it was free.

    I'm going to get the carriage all the way off, have a look at the underside, and then send it out for grinding (assume you'd need to do that first to get rid of the scoring before bothering to scrape?) while I work on the apron.

    Humble thanks again to all you knowledgeable folks. I'm having a lot of fun so far!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails img_0990.jpg   img_0989.jpg   img_0987.jpg   img_0992.jpg   img_0993.jpg  


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    Quote Originally Posted by jim314159 View Post
    ...
    I'm going to get the carriage all the way off, have a look at the underside, and then send it out for grinding (assume you'd need to do that first to get rid of the scoring before bothering to scrape?) while I work on the apron.
    ...
    As soon as you remove enough material from the bottom of the saddle to clean it up, you lower the carriage with respect to the leadscrew and feed-rod. You have to have to build the bottom of the saddle back up with Moglice or equivalent to get it back to the right height.

    If you haven't already done so, study the late Harry Bloom's 10EE rebuild thread: "Wreck" update

    Cal

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim314159 View Post
    Holy Toledo, the wear on the screw Macguyver posted! Thankful mine does not look like that. I will need to degrease and inspect my screw and then will decide whether to replace. The nut will get replaced.
    Coupla "Old Indjun" tricks apply to a 10EE.

    First one has to do with the manner in which the nut is attached to the top-slide of the cross. A bit of fiddling, you can observe it is possible to "cock" it at a slight angle to the axis of its screw. This is not good for wear, long-term, but.. CAN reduce backlash "for temporary" if you chose to fab a few parts BEFORE you go into a deep tear-down.

    Second one takes a bit of finesse. The 10EE nut is one-piece. Not all are. One common trick is to either use a two-piece ELSE mill-saw a cut part-way through. Adjusting screws, parallel to screw axis, then permit taking-up backlash as the parts wear.

    More useful as an OEM design trick, as any given 10EE will probably be in the hands of two minders down the line before a GOOD screw and nut are again worn-out.


    More progress today. Looks like about 0.008" clearance between the carriage and ways, so acceptable wear overall.
    If that is "worst case" underside of saddle to the front flat way? I'd leave it TF alone and just run it. Kept clean and better-lubed that its worst days, there could be another ten or fifteen years left in it before it starts to drag on flat and leadscrew / power-surfacing shaft.

    Loosening the thread dial screws did the trick to get the leadscrew out; getting the SHCS out of the feed rod clutch was a PITA but patience won out. I would estimate the weight of the apron at 65-70 lbs. and glad I used a progression of longer 3/8-16 bolts to lower it slowly until it was free.

    I'm going to get the carriage all the way off, have a look at the underside, and then send it out for grinding (assume you'd need to do that first to get rid of the scoring before bothering to scrape?) while I work on the apron.
    Milling rather than grinding, ordinarily. BEFORE you do that? You'll want to have made yer choice in advance as to WHICH option is to be used for raising it back up.

    The miracle plastics want a minimum for a durable bond on their "glue line" and/or have their OWN minimum thickness, even when cast into place, as Moglice is.

    You think YOU are having fun? Envy those of us getting YOUR hands dirty and back muscles cramped for a change.... rather than our own!


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  10. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by jim314159 View Post
    More progress today. Looks like about 0.008" clearance between the carriage and ways, so acceptable wear overall.
    That's pretty close to new, they were made with very little clearance there. Mine wore a *lot* and dropped that into contact, then wore the saddle and bed some more.

    I'd clean things up and put it back together. Bet with some cleaning and adjustments it'll run near as new.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rke[pler View Post
    That's pretty close to new, they were made with very little clearance there. Mine wore a *lot* and dropped that into contact, then wore the saddle and bed some more.

    I'd clean things up and put it back together. Bet with some cleaning and adjustments it'll run near as new.
    agreed, get it cleaned up and running

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    Hi Folks,

    Thank you again for all the replies and things to consider! To be clear, I was asking about grinding the top of the saddle, the slideways that interact with the cross slide.

    As you can see from the shots below from having removed the saddle, its underside condition is pretty good other than 60 years of gunk in the oil galleries. I pushed some air through the oil feed tube and they seem generally unobstructed. I'm going to leave the side that interfaces with the bed alone!

    Anyone know how to get the threading dial out? The 4 screws on the top are out, I don't see a set screw on the side (although there are at least 4 coats of paint on her). I gave the dial some light persuasion from the top with a brass mallet but sensed no give.

    Lastly I took the top off the headstock and the gearbox looks great. Other than some thin sludge its all clean and smooth. The only sign of wear I could see were in the clutches for LH and RH threads. Obviously the RH clutch is significantly more worn than the LH as you can see in the photos, but I suspect there's enough meat on the RH clutch to last me a long time and I don't want to tear down a gearbox that clean unless the experts here feel otherwise.

    Many Thanks As Always,
    jim
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails img_0997.jpg   img_0998.jpg   img_1002.jpg   img_1003.jpg   img_1004.jpg  


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    Quote Originally Posted by jim314159 View Post
    Hi Folks,

    Thank you again for all the replies and things to consider! To be clear, I was asking about grinding the top of the saddle, the slideways that interact with the cross slide.

    As you can see from the shots below from having removed the saddle, its underside condition is pretty good other than 60 years of gunk in the oil galleries. I pushed some air through the oil feed tube and they seem generally unobstructed. I'm going to leave the side that interfaces with the bed alone!

    Anyone know how to get the threading dial out? The 4 screws on the top are out, I don't see a set screw on the side (although there are at least 4 coats of paint on her). I gave the dial some light persuasion from the top with a brass mallet but sensed no give.

    Lastly I took the top off the headstock and the gearbox looks great. Other than some thin sludge its all clean and smooth. The only sign of wear I could see were in the clutches for LH and RH threads. Obviously the RH clutch is significantly more worn than the LH as you can see in the photos, but I suspect there's enough meat on the RH clutch to last me a long time and I don't want to tear down a gearbox that clean unless the experts here feel otherwise.

    Many Thanks As Always,
    jim
    Prolly a more polite way to say this, but I seldom had TIME for the niceties, so.. my way..

    "You LUCKY sunnovabitch!"


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    Thanks, thermite! I feel lucky, even though I have a long way to go. Sorry for the lack of updates; had to travel for work and there wasn't much progress. I had some time this weekend to start working on the apron. When I was rebuilding the head on my Tree, I had the idea of putting a plank on a thrust bearing to make a "gearbox lazy susan." I encourage everyone to make one! So much simpler to spin the entire assembly around with one finger.

    The apron gearbox is pretty straight forward. I was delighted to see that there's an eccentric on the carriage handwheel that powers the oil pump...too clever! The half-nut clutch wouldn't engage when it arrived, and looks like its been that way awhile based on the swarf collection in the half nuts. The good news is that preserved them and they appear great, as do most of the gears. You may not be able to see in the photo but the feed worm looks relatively worn. Worth replacing? It would be hard for me to make one of those so I'd probably have to buy "new."

    On the back side of the carriage feed handwheel shaft there is a spanner-head screw that retains a bearing. My is stuck like the dickens...does anyone know if it is LH or RH thread?

    Thanks All,
    jim
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    Quote Originally Posted by jim314159 View Post
    Thanks, thermite! I feel lucky, even though I have a long way to go. Sorry for the lack of updates; had to travel for work and there wasn't much progress. I had some time this weekend to start working on the apron. When I was rebuilding the head on my Tree, I had the idea of putting a plank on a thrust bearing to make a "gearbox lazy susan." I encourage everyone to make one! So much simpler to spin the entire assembly around with one finger.

    The apron gearbox is pretty straight forward. I was delighted to see that there's an eccentric on the carriage handwheel that powers the oil pump...too clever! The half-nut clutch wouldn't engage when it arrived, and looks like its been that way awhile based on the swarf collection in the half nuts. The good news is that preserved them and they appear great, as do most of the gears. You may not be able to see in the photo but the feed worm looks relatively worn. Worth replacing? It would be hard for me to make one of those so I'd probably have to buy "new."

    On the back side of the carriage feed handwheel shaft there is a spanner-head screw that retains a bearing. My is stuck like the dickens...does anyone know if it is LH or RH thread?

    Thanks All,
    jim
    Need sleep. Up for "too long" tracking a typhoon heading for my family, Hong Kong.

    Hearing that my five-foot-nothing mini-Dragon-Lady of a wife hung out a 19th story opening whilst being blasted with rain to snag a casement window whose latch failed and arm-wrassle it back SHUT from extreme over-extension all in a Mongkhut wind kinda put me off my elder-nap!

    Mind.. ignorant typhoon had know in advance she was in residence, it mought have picked some other place to to go and mess with..

    Meanwhile, back at the apron, that worm should clean-up jest fine, work well another fifty years. Even backlash is not critical - it only ever has to deal with one direction at a go. Bearings probably, thrust spacers too, or maybe neither, and you should be golden, regardless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim314159 View Post
    The half-nut clutch wouldn't engage when it arrived, and looks like its been that way awhile based on the swarf collection in the half nuts. The good news is that preserved them and they appear great, as do most of the gears. You may not be able to see in the photo but the feed worm looks relatively worn. Worth replacing? It would be hard for me to make one of those so I'd probably have to buy "new."

    Thanks All,
    jim
    The half nuts on my 10EE were frozen also. Really a plus as i don't think the lathe did much threading. The screw and half nuts looked like new.
    Someone is selling a lot of 10EE parts on e-bay including a Worm gear. (no connection to me)
    When I went through my carriage I reused the old worm thrust bearings and I now regret it as they are noisy. If or when I ever pull the carriage I plan on replacing them.

    Keep posting Looking good.
    Ron

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    Hi Fellas,

    It's been a few weeks of travel and distractions but I kept going on the apron last night. It is almost all apart save the main handwheel feed shaft and the "feeding vs threading" clutch. The photos aren't great because I was primarily taking them to help me remember how to get it all back together!

    Everything is in really beautiful shape, the only exception is a shredded thrust bearing on the input shaft from the worm. Does anyone have any clever ideas on how to get the spanner-head fastener off the back of the handwheel shaft? Mine won't budge and there isn't a great way for me to hold the shaft still anymore, nor is there an impact socket for that kind of fastener!

    One other question: how do I get the shift fork off the clutch? It looks like there's a bolt through the fork and into the shaft, held on by a 3/8 hex nut. Removing the nut does nothing. I thought it might be a taper pin with threads on top, but tightening the nut (presumably to pop it out) also doesn't do anything...it just gets tight.

    I looked high and low for someone who would/could re-scrape the top of the carriage and compound surfaces for me locally in Atlanta and came up dry. John Fahnestock over at J&L Scraping said he can do it but won't give me a price without seeing it in person. Haven't heard anything but praise for him so I'm going to bite the bullet and ship the whole carriage off to him.

    --jim
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails img_1102.jpg   img_1104.jpg   img_1113.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim314159 View Post
    Does anyone have any clever ideas on how to get the spanner-head fastener off the back of the handwheel shaft? Mine won't budge and there isn't a great way for me to hold the shaft still anymore, nor is there an impact socket for that kind of fastener!
    Actually, there are. But you do not want to pony-up their price for a one-time use.

    Just make a GOOD FITTING one. Full ring, not single hook, out of flat plate, and with a short tail. I use a solid Copper hammer on the tail or arm such things because I have one. Or Brass, which even Hoorer Fright sell.

    Smacking it is "impact", air powered or no.

    It's just slower, one stroke at a time than the bone-rattlers are. You may not need even two strikes, though.

    Do NOT smack the one-prong hooker type! You need more than one slot being worked to take-up the stress

    That can get just as ugly, just as fast, as if what you smacked was wearing high-heels, one slot in use at a time or otherwise.


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    Thermite, you're correct in that those sockets *exist*, just not in my toolboxes.

    Here's a view of the shaft and a closeup of the fastener; based on your comments I think you're thinking of a castellated nut or similar that would take a spanner wrench on the OD; this is the type of "spanner" that has two little dots in the head.

    Also keen to hear if anyone has gotten that shift fork out, how they did it!

    Cheers,
    jim
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    I just drilled a piece of bar stock with the same size holes the same distance apart and stuck a couple of dowels pins in it and wala! I have a wrench?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lance-W View Post
    I just drilled a piece of bar stock with the same size holes the same distance apart and stuck a couple of dowels pins in it and wala! I have a wrench?
    Done that about fifteen thousand years ago, they'd have made you a "priest" in the Orient, or burnt you as a witch in what is now Europe.

    Didn't yet have patents, y'see, but pin spanners and hook spanners or Tommy-bars are waaaaay older than hex nuts or Phillips, Bristo, Torx and such.

    Easier to make, fastener OR its wrench, ain't they?


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    Hi Folks,

    Well I went to saw some stock to make a socket to remove the (*^%(@! spanner head fastener on the carriage handwheel shaft, and the upper tire on the bandsaw let go. So while I'm waiting on new ones in the mail, I have turned to the quick change gearbox and motor.

    The motor is out! And she is heavy. It feels okay but not great; the bearings are smooth but resist a little and probably need replaced. There's either some rust in there or maybe red dust from Arizona where it was stored for a time. I'm going to take it to Motor & Gear Engineering here in Atlanta for whatever it needs; they've rebuilt a few motors for me and have always done nice work.

    Based on what I can see (and what's visible on a similar gearbox available on eBay), it needs to slide "left" about 3 inches to clear the output shaft from the headstock gearbox, and then "forward" off its perch. To get clearance to slide "left" I have to remove the spindle pulley, and I can't get that off without removing the collet closer, which is proving difficult. If anyone has advice I'd love to hear it!

    --jim
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails img_1125.jpg   img_1126.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim314159 View Post
    The motor is out! And she is heavy. It feels okay but not great; the bearings are smooth but resist a little and probably need replaced. There's either some rust in there or maybe red dust from Arizona where it was stored for a time. I'm going to take it to Motor & Gear Engineering here in Atlanta for whatever it needs; they've rebuilt a few motors for me and have always done nice work.
    Better day for you than you might have expected, Pilgrim.

    That's a very good motor and gone uncommon!

    Genuine "small frame" Reliance, not the cheaper GE KinaMatic nor Louis-Allis.

    Right on the data plate, the beloved "Type T", and the diagram for the "COMP SHUNT" S1, S2 connection of the six leads, total.

    The "Rectified Power Motor" (RPM) series replaced them ages ago, but they were damned fine motors already.

    The arse-end can take a mount for a tachogenerator, too. Mine had one.

    I've no klew what Reliance lubed the bearings with, but one of the Reliance pubs sez the shafts should be turned-over by hand no less often than once in six months when stored as shelf spares.

    At Reliance prices? It's probably just the French Champagne hidden somewhere inside them, right next to the Caviar, port, and Monte Cristo cigars!


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    Quote Originally Posted by jim314159 View Post
    Hi Folks,

    Well I went to saw some stock to make a socket to remove the (*^%(@! spanner head fastener on the carriage handwheel shaft, and the upper tire on the bandsaw let go. So while I'm waiting on new ones in the mail, I have turned to the quick change gearbox and motor.

    The motor is out! And she is heavy. It feels okay but not great; the bearings are smooth but resist a little and probably need replaced. There's either some rust in there or maybe red dust from Arizona where it was stored for a time. I'm going to take it to Motor & Gear Engineering here in Atlanta for whatever it needs; they've rebuilt a few motors for me and have always done nice work.

    Based on what I can see (and what's visible on a similar gearbox available on eBay), it needs to slide "left" about 3 inches to clear the output shaft from the headstock gearbox, and then "forward" off its perch. To get clearance to slide "left" I have to remove the spindle pulley, and I can't get that off without removing the collet closer, which is proving difficult. If anyone has advice I'd love to hear it!

    --jim
    If that were mine I would use it as it is just a little dusty would sweep off with a broom not covered with old oil and swarf.

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