Jim's 10ee rebuild thread - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by jim314159 View Post
    ... I have turned to the quick change gearbox ...

    Based on what I can see (and what's visible on a similar gearbox available on eBay), it needs to slide "left" about 3 inches to clear the output shaft from the headstock gearbox, and then "forward" off its perch. To get clearance to slide "left" I have to remove the spindle pulley, and I can't get that off without removing the collet closer, which is proving difficult. If anyone has advice I'd love to hear it!

    --jim
    Everything that you need to know about removing a square-dial quick-change gearbox should be in this thread:

    I don't think that you need to take off the collet closer to remove the gearbox.

    Cal

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    Quote Originally Posted by labeeman View Post
    If that were mine I would use it as it is just a little dusty would sweep off with a broom not covered with old oil and swarf.
    When that motor is in good shape, power-off, you have to have a really good ear to hear ANYTHING when turned-over by hand. He's right to get new bearings put in.

    It will benefit from a commutator touch up and new brushes as well. Thereafter, minimum 2000 power-on-hours on the brush life, 6,000 POH not impossible.

    It has but a small fraction of the mass of Copper and gargantuan swept-area of the "large frame" Reliance, but it is well-executed, even so. The "large frame" was seriously overbuilt for long and safe passenger elevator use.

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  4. #43
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    Thanks, fellas, for the thoughts!

    Cal, thanks for the thread on QCGB removal; very helpful. Here's another photo that hopefully helps; I can't see how I could slide the gearbox to the "left" far enough to clear the head gearbox shaft without hitting the pulley on the spindle, and I can't pull the pulley without also removing what's left of the collet closer. Happy to get more shots if it would be helpful!

    --jim
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails img_1127.jpg  

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    You may not need to pull the pulley just move it far enough for everything to clear on the gear box.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim314159 View Post
    Thanks, fellas, for the thoughts!

    Cal, thanks for the thread on QCGB removal; very helpful. Here's another photo that hopefully helps; I can't see how I could slide the gearbox to the "left" far enough to clear the head gearbox shaft without hitting the pulley on the spindle, and I can't pull the pulley without also removing what's left of the collet closer. Happy to get more shots if it would be helpful!

    --jim
    The casting with the end-gearing isn't part of the quick change (QC) gearbox; it bolts to the top of the gearbox like a tombstone. I don't know if it's possible to remove it without completely removing the gearbox itself. Looking at parts sheet 142, it appears that the end-gear casting is bolted to the gearbox by at least three SHCS, at least one of which comes up from the bottom, possible going all the way through the QC gearbox.

    However, removing the collet closer and pulley aren't a big problem. The collet closer is held onto the end of the spindle via two large dog-point setscrews, 180 degrees apart. Remove the setscrews and you should be able to pull the closer body and draw-tube off/out. The collet closer is shown on parts sheet 129 and there's a discussion of it here: lever collet closer

    The pulley might held on with one or two setscrews as well (parts sheet 153 doesn't show any setscrews). It may also be that the body of the collet closer holds it in position. Let us know what you find.

    Cal

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  9. #46
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    Hi Folks,

    I'm only seeing 2 big SHCS holding the end-gear casting, but there must be another one hidden someplace because it's all moving as one unit and binding with the pulley.

    Here are some more photos of what's left of the collet closer attachment; it had a big set screw that rode in a slot, and in the second shot you can make out some sort of key that rides in another slot. That key is what's preventing me from getting the sliding portion of the closer off the spindle. I can't get any purchase on it from the top, and getting a hook underneath is difficult but won't push it up any, either.

    There are also a couple slotted head screws on the pulley itself and they are as tight as a gnat's ass. Gonna have to get the impact screwdriver in there, I think. I'll keep working on it and post back results.

    --jim
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails img_1128.jpg   img_1129.jpg   img_1130.jpg  

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    Quick update: I drilled and tapped that key for an 8-32 SHCS, the largest it would allow for, so I could get a positive hold on it from the top and it still won't budge! Even got a lever under it and while it'll sink about 1/32", it wont lift one bit, which makes me suspect it's got a lip on the bottom side (how did they get it on there if so?) or is boogered up somehow. Anyone got a handy tip other than drilling it until it falls apart?

    Cheers,
    jim

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    Made some progress yesterday afternoon; the apron is all torn down now save for the shift fork which is still stubbornly pinned to its shaft. I'm amazed at how unworn and smooth most of the components are; the oil pump feels like new.

    Thanks to those with the idea of making a new socket to engage with that fastener on the apron handwheel shaft (the fastener itself does not show on Sheet 146, Unit EE7 of the drawings otherwise I would refer to it properly). There was some rust under it holding it fast; I chose to use large diameter stock to get some rotational inertia behind the pins and it came loose with 1 ugga dugga.

    For future overhaulers, you'll need a "socket" with two pins just a hair under 3/16" (I got some dowel pins and rolled them lightly on a grinding wheel) whose centers are 0.530" apart, and protrude 1/4". If you would like to borrow mine I'd be happy to lend it to you for the price of postage.

    Cheers,
    jim
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails img_1132.jpg   img_1133.jpg   img_1139.jpg   img_1140.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim314159 View Post
    ...
    Here are some more photos of what's left of the collet closer attachment; it had a big set screw that rode in a slot, and in the second shot you can make out some sort of key that rides in another slot. That key is what's preventing me from getting the sliding portion of the closer off the spindle. I can't get any purchase on it from the top, and getting a hook underneath is difficult but won't push it up any, either.
    ...
    I'm pretty sure that key is longer than the oval portion that sticks through the sliding sleeve. You remove it by first removing the collet closer assembly from the spindle, then sliding the sleeve off the body to the left (towards the tailstock).

    Quote Originally Posted by jim314159 View Post
    There are also a couple slotted head screws on the pulley itself and they are as tight as a gnat's ass. Gonna have to get the impact screwdriver in there, I think. I'll keep working on it and post back results.
    The slotted screw that's right next to the pulley is part of the collet closer assembly, not the pulley. There's another one on the opposite side. You need to remove those two screws and the closer body should slide off of the spindle. Use penetrating oil like Kroil or a 50-50 mix of acetone and automatic transmission fluid to soak them before trying to remove them. Find/grind a straight bit that's a perfect fit for the slot before trying to break them loose and use a hand impact tool to break them free.

    Cal

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  14. #50
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    Thanks, Cal! Looks like you are right (no surprise there!) upon further review of the drawings Monarch sent me (although the set screws - more like threaded pins - do not appear). Kroil, heat, impacts, an impact screwdriver, taps with a punch, none of them got a budge. Ultimately a 1/4" drill and a big screw extractor did the job.

    Now I need to get the darn thing off the spindle since it is seized up good with 60+ years of gunk. Unless anyone has a better idea I'm going to (find, buy, and then) put a chuck in the spindle and run a piece of stock back through the headstock for the center of a gear puller to engage with. I really, really don't want to gall, ding, or gouge even the backside of my spindle if I can avoid it.

    --jim
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails img_1145.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim314159 View Post
    Now I need to get the darn thing off the spindle since it is seized up good with 60+ years of gunk. Unless anyone has a better idea I'm going to (find, buy, and then) put a chuck in the spindle and run a piece of stock back through the headstock for the center of a gear puller to engage with. I really, really don't want to gall, ding, or gouge even the backside of my spindle if I can avoid it.
    Use the increased thermal expansion of the aluminum sheave to help get oil between it and the spindle - stuff a wet rag inside the spindle under the sheave and heat the sheave quickly with a torch. Put oil or penetrant around the interface so it'll have a chance to wick into any available gap. Try this cycle a few times before applying pulling force, you might be surprised at how easy it comes off.

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    What he said, but that pulley is so large, and the thermal coefficient differentials great enough you can get the job done with a lot lower "sensible" heat, even if the spindle steel is raised to the same temp, so long as it is well above ambient ROOM temp for the both of them.

    Bad knee heating pad overnight, incandescent heap lamp for half an hour to an hour and half, etc. Part of why I don't even like to WORK 'Shiney Wood". Not even as thermally stable as ignorant BAMBOO! And that's not even a wood. It's a grass!

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  19. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by jim314159 View Post
    ...
    Now I need to get the darn thing off the spindle since it is seized up good with 60+ years of gunk. Unless anyone has a better idea I'm going to (find, buy, and then) put a chuck in the spindle and run a piece of stock back through the headstock for the center of a gear puller to engage with. I really, really don't want to gall, ding, or gouge even the backside of my spindle if I can avoid it.

    --jim
    If you look into the outer end of the closer body, about 2-1/2" in, you can see the end of the spindle. The trick's going to be getting penetrant in between the closer body and the spindle tube. My closer body is made of cast iron, not aluminum like Russ's, but his trick may still work. The steel spindle may have a higher coefficient of thermal expansion than a cast iron closer body, so maybe dry ice in the spindle bore would work?

    I think I would try a large bearing separator, clamped in the slot for the feed belt, with the jacking bolts pressing against the side of the spindle drive pulley. It might be worth boring out the ID of the separator to the diameter of the feed belt slot, so that you get full contact with the closer body. I strongly recommend NOT using a three-jaw puller against the three oval slots where the fingers and rollers for the closer once lived. The casting is pretty thin back there and you'll likely damage it.

    Do you have the draw tube and the rest of collet closer assembly, or is the body and sleeve all that you have left?

    Cal

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  21. #54
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    Thanks, folks!

    I liberally applied Kroil to the seams between the closer body both outside the spindle and inside, and then applied some heat to try and give the Kroil room to seep in. Will let that soak awhile.

    Cal, yeah, I have the closer body, fingers, rollers and that's it. Most of my work goes in a chuck and the stuff that doesn't I can probably get by with a different collet setup. I had planned on selling the closer bits and pieces, but happy to hear other opinions.

    If the oil soak and gentle heat don't work I'll give the bearing splitter a try; it sounds like a clever solution. Will circle back with pics etc. as we progress. I'm thankful for all the expert opinions here.

    --jim

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    I'm interested in buying the closer parts. I sent you a PM.

    Cal

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    Hi Folks,

    Well, I tried a few cycles of gentle (100W lightbulb) heating, application of Kroil, wheedling and pulling with no success. I finally took a look at the threaded end of the closer and the nearly solid plug that threads into it and decided to put a slug of 6061 in there and pass a sliding fit bar of the same through the spindle and give gentle (really) taps with a hammer and that did the trick.

    There was a good coat of Kroil on the whole thing, but looking at the closeness of the fit and the length of engagement between the two pieces, it was wishful thinking to think I could get it off without some sort of mechanical advantage. The good news is both pieces are in great shape and unmarred.

    Next up is the pulley!

    Cheers,
    jim
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails img_1156.jpg   img_1157.jpg  

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    Hi Folks!

    I can't believe it's been a month since my last update! I have made progress, just not enough to make it worth posting. Some updates:
    • Got the pulley off gently with a big ol gear puller and a heat gun.
    • The apron is all apart and largely stripped of its SEVEN(!) layers of paint.
    • I've been working with Sergio from General Bearings on replacements for the weird cartridge bearings in the apron. I also need a replacement for one of the 3 piece thrust bearings on the cross slide feed clutch. Not sure if they can source one but I guess I can bite the bullet and get from Monarch.
    • I posted in one of Zap's threads about the apron worm wheel; mine is worn but consensus is its still got a lot of life left and the $470 to replace it would be better spent elsewhere. Like on paint stripper.
    • The motor is off at Motor and Gear Engineering getting new bearings and whatever else it needs. It took some doing to get it out of the machine and into a friends truck! As AvE would say, she has some gravity to her.
    • All the panels and painted bits that I could remove and get blasted I did. I took them to Eco-Clean out in Austell GA and they got them sparkling for $300 which I thought was fair. Before and after photos below.
    • As for the rest of the machine, I have tested and tested on layer after layer of paint and am astonished to get negative results for lead on each one. I'm still going to build a tent around her before I get out the wire wheels and remove the rest of the paint on the base, bed and headstock.

    ...Next up is removing the gearbox (gotta build a table of the right height to slide it onto), and in the gaps painting the clean panels and apron, then reassembly of that. I snoozed and lost on getting the top slide surfaces scraped; John Fahnestock/J&L Scraping has gone to Florida for the winter. That'll sit until March, and at my pace of progress that's just fine.

    --jim

    img_1146.jpgimg_1185.jpgimg_1210.jpgimg_1213.jpg

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    Hi All,

    Making slow but steady progress. I took a break to paint some of the body panels that came back from the blaster. I'm not going to go crazy and do bondo and sand 3 times and whatnot; I just don't have the equipment to get the final result that effort justifies. But I do want it to look nice and like someone cares about it!

    I'm STILL waiting on the rest of the apron bearings. I've been working with Sergio at general bearings and it hasn't gone great. He got the order quantities wrong the first time and then they charged me more than the amount we agreed on and I still haven't gotten the rest of the bearings I needed and paid for. They usually don't call me back so I have to feel like I'm pestering them. If you can source them from another place I would recommend that.

    I finally got the leadscrew gearbox off the base casting and hefted it onto my mill table with only mild lower back pain. I'm not going to tear it down, just strip off the paint and keep it clear while I repaint the rest of the machine. While doing that I noticed an oil line coming out of the headstock and feeding into the bed casting...what's that for?

    Cheers,
    jim

    img_1251.jpgimg_1250.jpgimg_1249.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim314159 View Post
    ...I took a break to paint some of the body panels that came back from the blaster. I'm not going to go crazy and do bondo and sand 3 times and whatnot; I just don't have the equipment to get the final result that effort justifies. But I do want it to look nice and like someone cares about it!
    ...
    If you wanted a "nice" result without investing a lot of time, the thing to do was to sand the old paint flat, fill in any chips and paint. Now that you've had the covers sand/bead blasted, you're going to have a pretty ugly result if you just paint, thanks to the texture of the castings. One coat of body filler, sanded smooth, will make a big difference. Yes, it takes a little time, but I think the end result is worth it. It doesn't require much in the way of equipment to get the fill/sand job done. A random orbit sander will do the trick nicely.

    Quote Originally Posted by jim314159 View Post
    ... I noticed an oil line coming out of the headstock and feeding into the bed casting...what's that for? ...

    img_1251.jpg
    That's the overflow line for the headstock's center reservoir. Not all 10EEs have one.

    While you have the gearbox off, there's a cover on the back that's a known problem. The gasket goes bad and you get an annoying leak. You'll want to attend to that. Somewhere there's a nice post on the subject by DaveE907, but I can't find it. If memory serves, he wound up sealing it up with Permatex.

    Cal

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    Hi Jim,

    You might also be able to get away with spraying the covers with a polyester high prime primer - Slick Sand, Feather Fill, Super Build 4:1 or similar, and block sand back down.


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