Jim's 10ee rebuild thread - Page 4
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  1. #61
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    Hi Folks,

    Just a quick update. I am making progress, albeit slowly. The apron is now back together! I wish I had read the threads about the oil pump not being self-priming *before* I reassembled the damn thing, but at least it's easy to get to. Do I just submerge it in Vactra and crank it for awhile? Any reason I can't just overfill the apron and do it in situ?

    Three of the bearings felt sandy and were replaced after much searching for good replacements. One of the clutch thrust bearings' cage had completely detonated and I never did find a replacement bearing, so I made a new cage from scratch. We'll see how it does!

    Next up is to strip and repaint the front of the leadscrew gearbox; everything in there feels silky and works great so I'm not going to bother tearing it apart. Wish me luck.

    I never got over my concerns about the cross slide gib having broken and been brazed back together, so I bought a new cross slide and gib together off eBay for $250. Will send them to get scraped in once John F. gets back from his Florida vacation.

    Cheers,
    jim
    img_0054.jpgimg_0050.jpgimg_0028.jpg

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  3. #62
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    Hi All,

    It has been a busy summer and I have been making slow, steady progress on my 10ee. The leadscrew gearbox is complete and sharing a furniture dolly with the apron while I work on the tailstock. I have her all apart and there are only a few curiosities.

    At some point in the past I think someone stripped out the side-to-side alignment screws and so a new part was machined and screwed into a recess in the main TS casting. The TS had been shimmed up between the two pieces using what appears to be scotch tape, an ominous sign. I'll get her re-shimmed properly at the end of the refurbishment process.

    What I do want to get people's opinions on is some slop in the tailstock quill. Both the quill and the barrel have some wear and scoring which is to be expected from six decades of service. Now that everything is cleaned and I'm starting to reassemble, I'm showing about 0.005" of up/down slop in the quill when I apply moderate finger pressure with the quill extended 3". With it all the way retracted I still get ~0.002".

    Seems to me this is a giant problem that will affect the accuracy of the machine, no? Do I have options other than having the bore redone and sleeved like a piston? Sounds expensive and fraught.

    Thanks,
    jim

    img_0344.jpg

  4. #63
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    You'll want to use a bore gage on the tailstock casting and see if the wear is to the quill or the tail stock casting. If it is the casting you can likely have it honed cylindrical and make a quill. Mine had all the wear on the quill so I made a replacement quill (actually, 2 - I made a second with an MT3 taper). I recall Daryl went the "hone" way.

    (I just checked my MT2 quill. With the tailstock locked and the quill extended to 3.5" (but not locked) I can get about .0005" movement pulling on a tool that's about 6" extended out of the taper. Pretty good, I think.)

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  6. #64
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    I had my 10EE tailstock bore honed at a local honing shop and then made a new quill. I made it out of LaSalle Fatigue-Proof ETD-150. I lapped the quill to fit using a cast iron ring lap. I rough-bored the taper, and then finished with a #2 Morse reamer. The job is archived here on PM in the 10EE forum, but the photo links may be broken.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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  8. #65
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    Thank you for the replies, fellas.

    I got out my bore gauges and measured the tailstock quill bore at 1.2525" at the headstock end of the opening, 1.251" about 3 inches in, and 1.250" at the tailstock end just past the threads.

    I'm not a genius, but I think that 0.0025" bell mouth explains the 0.005" movement in the quill. The quill itself more or less measures 1.249".

    My next move will be to find an auto machine shop or similar that can hone the TS bore to be concentric, and I guess with a finished ID of 1.253-ish.

    Do you all think I need to make a new quill or is it possible for me to have the existing one chrome plated or similar and then ground down to 1.2525?

    Thank You,
    jim

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    Make sure whomever hones the bore knows how to deal with the key slot and quill lock cutout. I don't think they necessarily need a helical hone, but they do need to be careful not to snag or round over the edges of those features.

    I suppose you could chrome and grind the quill. Is the taper in good enough condition? I recognize that making a nice quill takes hours and is not a job for everyone, especially if the only lathe you have is the one that needs a quill. I was fortunate enough to have another lathe.

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  11. #67
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    If you have access to a top flight hard chrome shop, that would be the way to go. By "top flight", I mean equipment and people that really know what they are doing and grinding to a "tenth" is not a problem. There was a old time hard chrome plater here in Dallas , that was legendary and I knew the owner, son of the original founder. I took my quill over there, and their grinders all dated prewar, they could barely hit .001 much less .0002. What a cluster. I eventually had to make my own quill. I heard the other day that they had been pouring their old plating liquids in a hole in the ground on their property, had had been doing so for decades. It was declared a Superfund site, and the owner didn't even lock the gate and left the country. Ha.

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  13. #68
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    Hi Fellas,

    I'll *try* to go the chrome route first. I'm in Atlanta so there are plenty of places to go to get it honed and I'll find someone who doesn't screw up the keyway etc.

    The taper in the quill is not in amazing shape, but can't I just put an MT2 reamer in the headstock and clean it up, or am I missing something?

    Appreciate it,
    jim

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    The original quill is not hardened(mine was not) and a good reamer should clean that up no problem. I know there are limits as to how much you can ream, but I can't imagine yours is that bad....he says.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim314159 View Post
    The taper in the quill is not in amazing shape, but can't I just put an MT2 reamer in the headstock and clean it up, or am I missing something?
    IIRC every .001 you ream from the MT2 takes .007 from the length. So if there's some pit you ream out completely you might set the gage line back enough that some shanks hit the stop pins.

    Doesn't mean that you shouldn't try.

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  18. #71
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    I have been working on things; see photos for progress (I give up on trying to orient them correctly for this forum software.) The mechanicals for a no-compromise VFD conversion are just about complete.

    The final count on coats of paint was 9; they are all gone now. I had a lab test them and surprisingly none had any trace of lead but I built a temporary containment structure anyway and HEPA-vac'd it all up.

    I will be offering the complete, working (as far as I know), old WIAD drive train for sale, will price it fairly, and will give preference to someone who is going to use (all of) it themselves to keep the 10ee fleet running. PM me if you are interested.

    --jim

    img_0676.jpgimg_0675.jpgimg_0679.jpgimg_0678.jpgimg_0677.jpg

  19. #72
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    Hi Folks,

    I continue to make steady progress. Paint is complete and while it's not the quality of the original factory finish, it suits my needs fine and keeps corrosion away. The leadscrew, feed rod, apron and carriage went back on without incident. The electricals are all in and wired. I am using the old ELSR control box as the forward/reverse/off switch for the VFD.

    I'm now cleaning and reassembling the cross slide and compound, and then I can make some chips! Inside the casting that holds the cross slide thrust bearings it appears there is what may be a sheared pin. The threaded hole next to it just had a plain cap screw in it.

    What was the function/purpose of that pin and the nearby threaded hole? It looks like there is a through hole to the other side of where the pin is. I'd like to know whether/how to repair it before the cross slide goes back together.

    Thank You All,
    jim

    img_0923.jpg
    img_0919.jpg
    img_0920.jpg
    img_0921.jpg

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    I'm no expert, but I believe your beautiful lathe will be more convenient to operate it you secure it to the floor, rather than the ceiling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yan Wo View Post
    I'm no expert, but I believe your beautiful lathe will be more convenient to operate it you secure it to the floor, rather than the ceiling.
    He will not have a problem with chips on the lathe,LOL

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  24. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by jim314159 View Post
    What was the function/purpose of that pin and the nearby threaded hole? It looks like there is a through hole to the other side of where the pin is. I'd like to know whether/how to repair it before the cross slide goes back together.
    That's the hole for the thread chasing stop screw, the pin is a retainer for the screw.

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  26. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by rke[pler View Post
    That's the hole for the thread chasing stop screw, the pin is a retainer for the screw.
    Thanks, rkepler. So is it your opinion that the pin is not sheared, but is supposed to be that way? I don't really see anything else it would bear on, but I also don't understand how the mechanism works.

    From the drawing of the cross feed screw (Sheet 120) it looks like EE3432 pushes up on a pin which is unnumbered and also missing. Any idea what that looks like?

    Apologies to the other jokers about the orientation of my photos. I take them right side up, and the PM forum rotates them randomly as far as I can tell and I have given up.

    Lastly, the Monarch parts folks helpfully provided me with a replacement 655-2 (AKA 538-4) seal to keep gunk out of the thrust bearings. Unfortunately you can't install the seal once the apron has been replaced! The cross slide feed gear from the apron interferes with the bore and I don't have the heart to remove all my wiring, the ELSR box, the leadscrew and feed rods, and then drop the apron *again*. It is a pretty protected spot and I doubt much gunk will migrate in that way, anyway.

    --jim

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim314159 View Post
    From the drawing of the cross feed screw (Sheet 120) it looks like EE3432 pushes up on a pin which is unnumbered and also missing. Any idea what that looks like?
    The thread chasing stop provides a positive stop for the cross slide dial. To set it just release the dial lock (on the face of the dial) and turn out at least 3 turn and then back in until the tool engages the work. At that point lock the dial, and the cross feed can turn 3 turns out and back in to the 0 you set. That allows you to use the compound to move the tool and the cross feed to retract and return the tool to the last cut.

    EE3432 engages a 3 disk assembly (EE3412,EE3413, EE3412) to provide this stop.

    Not sure this image will help much but the assembly is visually the same on the round dial and this is in the manual:



    On edit: picture in this post New to me 10EE

    Edit: Found a picture of the screw, at least one I made:



    Apologies to the other jokers about the orientation of my photos. I take them right side up, and the PM forum rotates them randomly as far as I can tell and I have given up.
    You might want to load them up in an image editor and force the rotation, then save the image as a new image. That might fix it.

    Lastly, the Monarch parts folks helpfully provided me with a replacement 655-2 (AKA 538-4) seal to keep gunk out of the thrust bearings. Unfortunately you can't install the seal once the apron has been replaced! The cross slide feed gear from the apron interferes with the bore and I don't have the heart to remove all my wiring, the ELSR box, the leadscrew and feed rods, and then drop the apron *again*. It is a pretty protected spot and I doubt much gunk will migrate in that way, anyway.
    You should be able to lift the saddle by removing the front and rear wipers and bearings, undoing the bolts holding the apron down (I'd put blocking under it) and then lifting the saddle enough to clear the seal.

    I have the same seal and have not put it in, yet.

  28. #78
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    Default Square-dial cross-feed dial assembly

    Quote Originally Posted by jim314159 View Post
    ... Inside the casting that holds the cross slide thrust bearings it appears there is what may be a sheared pin. The threaded hole next to it just had a plain cap screw in it.

    What was the function/purpose of that pin and the nearby threaded hole? It looks like there is a through hole to the other side of where the pin is. I'd like to know whether/how to repair it before the cross slide goes back together.
    ...

    img_0919.jpg
    img_0920.jpg
    img_0921.jpg
    I believe that the pin that you're asking about is part 511-2, shown on parts sheet 120. It's job is to keep the Stop Screw (part EE-3432) from backing out all the way. It intersects the bore for the Stop Screw and goes into the necked-down part of the screw nearest the threads.

    Quote Originally Posted by jim314159 View Post
    Thanks, rkepler. So is it your opinion that the pin is not sheared, but is supposed to be that way? I don't really see anything else it would bear on, but I also don't understand how the mechanism works.

    From the drawing of the cross feed screw (Sheet 120) it looks like EE3432 pushes up on a pin which is unnumbered and also missing. Any idea what that looks like?
    ...
    Just to clarify what Russ wrote, there is no missing pin. The tip of EE-3432, when engaged, moves in so that the tab on one of the EE-3413 disks will bump into it and provide positive stops 3 revolutions apart (as Russ already explained).

    EE-3432 is a square-dial part. It replaces part E8-54 (round-dial parts picture E8, part 54) on round-dials. Here's a photo that shows the two parts with EE-3432 at the top:
    img_6609.jpg


    Here's a photo that shows the internal parts of a square-dial cross-feed dial assembly:
    img_6532.jpg

    The three small parts at the bottom are (left to right) 511-2, EE-3432 and 450-3 (the Woodruff key for the handle). Note that parts with an "EE" prefix are custom parts designed by Monarch, parts like 511-2 were commercially available parts. If your pin 511-2 doesn't extend all the way through the cross-hole, then it probably was sheared off, perhaps by some idiot trying to force the stop screw out without first removing 511-2.

    Cal

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  30. #79
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    Thanks, Cal, for the beautiful photos and helpful text. I do believe the pin was sheared by a 300lb. gorilla, because the EE-3432 screw still exists, but the tip is broken off and it is now being used as the graduated dial locking screw on the cross slide! Sigh.

    At least those parts will be easy to replace when I get a new ones from Terrie (although I'll make 3432 myself).

    Next up is re-fitting the cross slide and whatnot. I'm going to post a separate thread about that.

    Also, today in the mail from Dave/Rimcanyon arrived a set of idler/tensioner pulleys for the main drive. Thanks, Dave! Bearings and axle stock arrive from McMaster tomorrow and I'll try to post some shots of that build.

    Thanks all,
    jim


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