Major oil spill after refilling 10EE for first time
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  1. #1
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    Post Major oil spill after refilling 10EE for first time

    After nearly a year of working on my 1942 10EE...the motor runs!!...I was ready to start testing it. Filled the headstock and gearbox according to the manual's specs, then went in the other room to do some other jobs. I returned to find the Exon Valdez had apparent sunk in my shop. About $40 of Mobile Light and Heavy all over the floor. An hour and $10 worth of paper towels later, I looked for the leaks. The center chamber of the headstock was empty...3 quarts gone! The front and rear chambers of the headstock are OK, according to the sight glasses. I don't see a way of checking the oil level in the transmission, so I don't know if that leaked too.

    In this photo, there are two holes labeled 1 and 2. The #1 hole was open and dripping freely. I found it was threaded so I put a short 3/8-16 bolt with a washer and gasket in there. The #2 hole is open.

    So, perhaps these are obvious questions, but I've never found anything obvious about working on this lathe:
    1. Does hole #1 have any purpose besides a drain? The bolt I used to plug it was short, just long enough to thread in and hold, but should it be longer to engage something else?
    2. Is there suppose to be a bolt in hole #2? I'm thinking it is suppose to help hold the headstock to the transmission case. Unfortunately, the manuals I have show components and sub-assemblies, but no drawings of how assemblies attach.
    3. Is there a way of checking the oil in the transmission?

    img_6462.jpg

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    Well that sucks. Neighbor changed the oil in his car, filled the oil before he put the plug in. So he swears a bit and puts the plug in and drives to the parts store to get more oil. He did not get there.

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    If you remember back to when you changed the threading gear shifter and removed the spindle, that there were not random open holes underneath the spindle. If so you probably would have noticed. You say you can't check the transmission. What are you describing as the transmission? That is not a word normally describing a 10EE item, which a check of the round dial manual just confirmed.

    The headstock has sightglasses, the gearbox has a sightglass, the backgear gearbox has a sightglass, the apron has a sightglass. What are you referring to that you can't check?

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    Sorry. I was referring to the gearbox and I realized after I posted this that there is indeed a sight-glass for it. Must have been all that expensive Mobile oil fumes I was breathing...

    No, I didn't see any random holes in the headstock or in the gearbox, but then, I didn't have the gearbox out.

    I clean under the gearbox area and then measured the large hole (#2 in the photo.) It is threaded and appears to be a 1-14. Just for fun, I removed one of the bolts that holds the gearbox to the main body of the lathe and they are much smaller, so this is a unique bolt hole. The fact that it is so large and threaded makes me doubt that it isn't original to the lathe, but then again, it is 77 years old, and who knows that has been done in that time.

    I suppose I can try getting a correct bolt and sealing the hole and then trying again with oil.

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    newbies are often fooled by sightglasses.....oil should be well up,there is a residual in the glass ,even when the oil is empty.......anyhoo,my definition of a major spill is when oil runs out into the street and the council find out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by john.k View Post
    newbies are often fooled by sightglasses.....oil should be well up,there is a residual in the glass ,even when the oil is empty.......anyhoo,my definition of a major spill is when oil runs out into the street and the council find out.
    The Exxon Valdez was a major spill yours doesn’t even count!!

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    Would someone with a round-dial 10EE post a photo of the underside of the lathe body, above and to the left of the motor, to show if the mysterious 1" bolt I present on their lathe? Thanks. - Carl

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    Quote Originally Posted by focusrsh View Post
    I returned to find the Exon Valdez had apparent sunk in my shop. About $40 of Mobile Light and Heavy all over the floor.
    That all could have been avoided if you had ordered some NOS kitty litter from Monarch.

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    #2 is a conduit connection that goes into the starter enclosure on the back of the lathe. #1 is present and not utilized on mine with no bolt in it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by focusrsh View Post
    ... Filled the headstock and gearbox according to the manual's specs, then went in the other room to do some other jobs. I returned to find the Exon Valdez had apparent sunk in my shop. About $40 of Mobile Light and Heavy all over the floor. ... The center chamber of the headstock was empty...3 quarts gone! The front and rear chambers of the headstock are OK, according to the sight glasses. I don't see a way of checking the oil level in the [quick-change gearbox], so I don't know if that leaked too.

    In this photo, there are two holes labeled 1 and 2. The #1 hole was open and dripping freely. I found it was threaded so I put a short 3/8-16 bolt with a washer and gasket in there. The #2 hole is open.

    So, perhaps these are obvious questions, but I've never found anything obvious about working on this lathe:
    1. Does hole #1 have any purpose besides a drain? The bolt I used to plug it was short, just long enough to thread in and hold, but should it be longer to engage something else?
    2. Is there suppose to be a bolt in hole #2? I'm thinking it is suppose to help hold the headstock to the transmission case. Unfortunately, the manuals I have show components and sub-assemblies, but no drawings of how assemblies attach.
    ...

    img_6462.jpg
    Those holes are supposed to be there and have nothing to do with the headstock, the quick-change (QC) gearbox nor your oil leak. Hole #1 doesn't have any function that I know of; it leads into the oil tray on top of the base and just has a plug in it. Hole #2 is for an electrical conduit. It leads into the AC contactor compartment on the back of the headstock, behind the QC gearbox (which you call a transmission). On my 1943 round-dial that's where the conduit that leads to the stop/start station on the front of the base is located, but it looks like that conduit was replaced on your machine with a section of more modern flex conduit using the second hole. (Not all 10EEs have three conduits in that area; machines built without a coolant pump only have two.)

    Here's a photo of the top of the base, under the bed and QC gearbox, showing the oil tray:
    ee11286-20130728_183056-base-casting-number-ee-2444.jpg
    photo by RC99
    Note that there is a depressed area in the middle that leads to a drain hole centered under the spindle, below the bed. You can see the hole where your bolt #1 is located. The copper line that is visible in your photo leads from the headstock to the depressed area and drains excess oil from the headstock into the chip pan under the bed. With the conduit missing (hole #2), excess oil in the tray can flow out the conduit hole, instead of into the chip pan.

    Here's a photo of the same machine, showing the bed in place:
    ee11286-20130728_183433.jpg
    photo by RC99
    Note that the bed does not contact the oil tray and that there are no holes in the bed that lead from the QC gearbox or headstock to the base.

    The above photos came from this thread: OzEE rebuild

    I suspect that you'll find that your leak has to do with the drain for the headstock being loose. The drain is located on the back of the headstock, above the QC gearbox, immediately below where the copper drain line connects to the headstock. Your photo IMG_6181 has a circle around the copper overflow line and the headstock drain tube (which is just a piece of pipe with a cap on it):
    ee17454-img_6181.jpg


    Cal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    I suspect that you'll find that your leak has to do with the drain for the headstock being loose. The drain is located on the back of the headstock, above the QC gearbox, immediately below where the copper drain line connects to the headstock. Your photo IMG_6181 has a circle around the copper overflow line and the headstock drain tube (which is just a piece of pipe with a cap on it):
    ee17454-img_6181.jpg
    Sorry- buggered camera here, but..

    Probably a good time to review the whole Magilla?

    There may be "field modifications" to make oil drain and flush easier to manage with less mess as well.

    My 1942 has a second, longer pipe that extends across the top of where the original bracket for the speed control rheostat chain-drive + speed reducer gearbox engage/disengage crank & rod once sat.

    The capped aft end of it clears the base casting so a funnel or pail could be gotten under it.

    The hole for the reservoir end of it is just below the large curved sector, right side and lower quarter, above photo.

    Above photo "seems to" show a similar pipe, almost out of the lower right corner, confused by a bit of accidental "camo" paint, so that may be wishful thinking?

    On my early 1944 round dial, there is no pipe "at present". Actually looks as if the hole has a busted-off section of pipe in it. Mought be "a while" before I get a round tuit to worry about which.

    2 pipes worth... and the nagging memory of a THIRD ONE. But the lighting was sore lousy out in the shop just now and the LED torch was a Horror-Fright product, so..

    "Next helper"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    ...

    My 1942 has a second, longer pipe that extends across the top of where the original bracket for the speed control rheostat chain-drive + speed reducer gearbox engage/disengage crank & rod once sat.

    The capped aft end of it clears the base casting so a funnel or pail could be gotten under it.
    ...
    As does mine. Visible in the above photo, just below the lower clamp nut for the end-gear quadrant. That's the drain for the QC gearbox. Here's another photo of OP's machine, showing the QC gearbox drain pipe:
    ee17454-img_6225.jpg


    Cal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    As does mine. Visible in the above photo, just below the lower clamp nut for the end-gear quadrant. That's the drain for the QC gearbox. Here's another photo of OP's machine, showing the QC gearbox drain pipe:
    Thanks, same on my '42, so factory, not field-mod.

    And probably DID get bustid-off on the "newer" one. BFD - I have just the right tool for pulling the bustid stub.

    Now.. why is it I am still thinking there is a THIRD bit of ignorant PIPE?

    Not the cork-gasketed flat cover that one can drain the rear spindle bearing reservoir - or ALMOST drain - by removing. Not a copper line the '42 doesn't have, arse-end.

    Another pipe drain, same diameter as these two?

    "Brass" round-dial MG, ordered December 1941, shipped September 1942.

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    To identify the source of the leaks, I drained the gearbox and then refilled it with kerosene, which is much thinner and also has a red dye so leaks are easy to trace. (The Monarch manual says to use kerosene when flushing the system, so that is OK.) After while, I found a lot of it dripping out the right side of the gearbox, around the feed rod. My manual identifies this as the "Front Bearing", and I think the casting is P/N EE2787. Whatever is suppose to contain the gearbox oil has failed badly.

    I found three socket-head cap screws that appear to hold this front bearing casting to the main gearbox, but after removing them, I was unable to pull the casing away. Any thoughts on how to remove this piece so I can renew whatever seals are bad?

    img_6464.jpg
    capture.jpg

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    This may be totally wrong as it as been so long since I have messed with the gearbox. I believe you need to remove the complete gearbox from the lathe. On the later ones, it is almost like a cassette type of deal, just a couple of bolts and it slides out. On mine, again a later EE, there were no real lipped seals just"labyrinth" type seals on those output shafts, and coolant had made its way past and into the box, which caused a huge mess inside. I see on the cutaway there looks to be some sort of seal, but I don't know what it is and maybe those are a newer type? Either way proper CR lipped seals can be easily retroffitted into the shaft housing, which I wondered why they didn't do that in the first place. I think I posted this retrofit years ago, but I don't know if this will apply to your model.

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    The parts drawing you include as picture 2 is for square dial machines. Daryl's procedure is correct for the square dial. The drawing shows two individual caps which hold the labyrinth seals that Daryl refers to, but in your picture there are not individual caps. I have no experience with the round dial, but it looks like this is the part that you are pointing to.


    screen-shot-2019-10-30-1.46.10-pm.jpg

    It looks to me like you have to remove the gearbox to get to it.

    Part 92 in the gearbox parts list is called oil seal, you may want to investigate that.

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    Some where in my build thread I show how it went for me. Yes, the gearbox definitely needs to come out. Mine (a round dial) had a lip seal on at least one of the shafts, but replacing it didn't eliminate the leak, but maybe slowed it down.

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    I'm really trying to NOT remove the headstock and gearbox because all I really need to remove is that front bearing casting. It definitely is a separate piece from the gearbox. Unfortunately, it has two taper pins, one at the top and one at the bottom, which appear to be holding it in place. Of course, you can't get to the other side of the pin except, I presume, front INSIDE the gearbox. (Stinkin' bas*ards, who designed THAT?) I tried using an old wood chisel, sharpened to a very thin wedge, to wedge the casting away from the gearbox, but it wouldn't budge. Also tried driving some thick Exacto blades in the joint but again, nothing moved.

    Looks like I need to research how to remove the gearbox. I presume the headstock has to come off first, yes? I only see four bolts.

    Boy, this is frustrating.

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    head stock removal not required
    the pins are straight on my lathe
    The reason it doesn't budge is a bolt you can not see on the backside of the casting/bracket...that's why you have to remove the gearbox

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    Actually several screws that you can not get to with out removing the box.

    I've got tons of pictures....hit me up if you need help.

    img_20180524_220911495.jpg

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