Metric 1976 10EE Monarch
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  1. #1
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    Default Metric 1976 10EE Monarch

    A buddy of mine just acquired this 10EE. Made in 1976, serial 45906-R. What's interesting is it's all Metric! Anyone see such a beast before? First one for me, and I'm rather impressed with the number of parts are are metric-specific...

    img_0279.jpg
    img_0278.jpg
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    I thought that late of production would have a single sight glass

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    There has been "metric only" 10ee lathes on the forum in the past.
    This machine appears to be an older style, close to ten years older then 1976. But, it certainly is an example of the company building the machines to order.
    The factory should have record of it.

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    According to the Monarch serial numbers available via the top "sticky" this was built circa 1961-62. Issues with these serial numbers have been raised, including by John Legge. I've not found them to be wildly off. My understanding is that Monarch adds an "R" after the s/n when they do a rebuild. My hunch then is this was rebuilt by them in 1976.

    As donie says "metric only" 10EE's have been reported here before. Many years ago Ole Steen (in Norway) reported having one, he eventually sold it.
    David

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    My 1976 10EE is serial number 51832, as mentioned that is an older machine rebuilt in 76'

    The interesting thing about that machine is it has a gov contract number, first "newer" metric only lathe with government origins?

    Steve

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    I remember the US "tried" to go metric about 1976...

    Metric Conversion Act - Wikipedia

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    Thanks for all the insights into this!

    >> I thought that late of production would have a single sight glass

    Yep. The 80's machine here has one sight glass, and all the 60's machines have 3 on the headstock.

    >> This machine appears to be an older style, close to ten years older then 1976.

    >> According to the Monarch serial numbers available via the top "sticky" this was built circa 1961-62.
    >> ... Monarch adds an "R" after the s/n when they do a rebuild. My hunch then is this was rebuilt by them in 1976.

    I agree. This is looking like a 60's machine that was rebuilt by Monarch in 1976. Be interesting to know if that's when it was transformed into a metric machine.

    >> The interesting thing about that machine is it has a gov contract number, first "newer" metric only lathe with government origins?

    I saw the government contract number on the tag and was pondering as to the significance... The entire serial number tag appears newer (as well as the monarch logo on the front). Seems those were updated during the rebuild. We really should check with Monarch see what the ownership and rebuild history is on this.

    >> I remember the US "tried" to go metric about 1976...
    >> Metric Conversion Act - Wikipedia

    This maybe the answer as to how this machine came to exist LOL...I could just see someone at a government institution taking this Metric Conversion Act as reason enough to send the ole Monarch back to the factory for a rebuild and swap to Metric! Be interesting to find out for sure....

    Thanks,
    Alex.

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    Well Monarch started to sell the inch/metric EE's in 76.

    Steve

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    I wonder if Monarch upgraded the drive from Wiad to modular while they were at it. Looks like the machine has the smaller tailstock quill.

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    The drive was originally modular, but, it may have been updated to the later modular lay out. The last configuration used Square D switches, and had a replacement for the OSD relay.
    On machines with the later style modular drive, the "Monarch" logo plate on the right hand electrical compartment door is "red" instead of "black". The difference with the later drive is a little faster switching, and a more reliable OSD relay "the big coil" in the right hand compartment is replaced with a unit mounted on a board.

    Another unusual thing about this machine is, no "Electric Lead Screw Reverse", as the threading dial can not be "normally used". The ELSR would make it easier for most operators to cut threads with the machine.
    However, some more experienced with thread cutting operators might find the ELSR cumbersome to use, and prefer the more positive standard headstock switch and using quick reflexes become the ELSR themselves. Of coarse, I am referring to mostly having to thread leaving the half nuts engaged, and depending on the machines dynamic braking for stopping and returning the carriage.
    There could, or should be, a chart showing the change gears needed to cut English threads located behind the lower left hand cover, the same transposing gears are used as to convert english machines to metric.

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    That's right, mine was a 1949 model square dial. Here is me with the all- metric EE back in 2006: 1263187.jpg
    Ole

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    I saw this lathe on eBay a while back and called Monarch on it. The R does stand for rebuild and the above posters are right it's an older machine. I wish I still had my paperwork where I wrote this all down but the rebuild was a conversion to a metric machine. It didn't make sense to me at the time when looking at the photos because metric machines have the extra detent lever which usually gives them away. This one does not have the extra detent lever and now I see why.

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    Which lever are you talking about? The machine in the picture is exactly like the -49 model I used to have "above the waist". Below it is different, with panels typical for a later thyratron drive. Could it be a "bastard" after rebuild?
    Ole

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    Quote Originally Posted by adh2000 View Post
    I wonder if Monarch upgraded the drive from Wiad to modular while they were at it. Looks like the machine has the smaller tailstock quill.
    Quote Originally Posted by donie View Post
    The drive was originally modular, but, it may have been updated to the later modular lay out. The last configuration used Square D switches, and had a replacement for the OSD relay.
    On machines with the later style modular drive, the "Monarch" logo plate on the right hand electrical compartment door is "red" instead of "black". The difference with the later drive is a little faster switching, and a more reliable OSD relay "the big coil" in the right hand compartment is replaced with a unit mounted on a board.

    Another unusual thing about this machine is, no "Electric Lead Screw Reverse", as the threading dial can not be "normally used". The ELSR would make it easier for most operators to cut threads with the machine.
    However, some more experienced with thread cutting operators might find the ELSR cumbersome to use, and prefer the more positive standard headstock switch and using quick reflexes become the ELSR themselves. Of coarse, I am referring to mostly having to thread leaving the half nuts engaged, and depending on the machines dynamic braking for stopping and returning the carriage.
    There could, or should be, a chart showing the change gears needed to cut English threads located behind the lower left hand cover, the same transposing gears are used as to convert english machines to metric.
    Quote Originally Posted by metal4130 View Post
    I saw this lathe on eBay a while back and called Monarch on it. The R does stand for rebuild and the above posters are right it's an older machine. I wish I still had my paperwork where I wrote this all down but the rebuild was a conversion to a metric machine. It didn't make sense to me at the time when looking at the photos because metric machines have the extra detent lever which usually gives them away. This one does not have the extra detent lever and now I see why.
    Quote Originally Posted by ole.steen View Post
    Which lever are you talking about? The machine in the picture is exactly like the -49 model I used to have "above the waist". Below it is different, with panels typical for a later thyratron drive. Could it be a "bastard" after rebuild?
    Ole
    "Hybrid" or "revision" might be the better term?

    Highly likely was a Modular to begin with.

    Not impossible to swap a good bed & above off an MG or WiaD to the later Modular base it is now on, but I can't see the need?

    Back in the era it was refurbished, all 10EE were much "younger" and there were more of them around still in better condition than later.

    I suspect Donie called it. The "current" or latest and last-revision of Modular at the time was probably used, partly because that would have been what the latest stock of parts in bins were for, and partly because it is common practice to apply most-current revisions and upgrades to make future maintenance support easier.

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    Do you know when the "modular" was introduced? The lathe in question might of course be from around that time.
    Ole

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    Quote Originally Posted by ole.steen View Post
    Do you know when the "modular" was introduced? The lathe in question might of course be from around that time.
    Ole
    "Era's' are in the PM "archives", but also known that there were some long overlaps as some customers wanted even MG units pretty late.

    That may have had to do with firms already having 10EE's wanting to keep operator or maintenance retraining to a minimum?

    And/or the factory might price a former main line to use-up the last runs of castings & c.?

    All I am certain of is that the base castings changed, the most dramatic changes being the move from Sundstrand hydraulic drive to Reliance MG drive, and WiaD to Modular.

    More to a Modular than where the doors are. The inside compartments are divided-up differently, too.

    The Modular has the most room and flexibility as to choice and positioning of the final-drive motor.

    All the rest is less important. MG's have existed separated from the machine, WiaD or module drives "could do" - that part is just longer wire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ole.steen View Post
    Do you know when the "modular" was introduced? The lathe in question might of course be from around that time.
    Ole
    See this timeline from 2002: History of the 10ee - Gospel according to Monarch

    States module box drive was introduced in 1960. The 10EE with inch/metric was first shown at IMTS in 1970.

    David

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    Quote Originally Posted by old_dave View Post
    Minor nit. 1939 was first commercial shipment.

    From other official sources, ISTR the design AND actual in-the-metal R&D and test started 1936.

    Most early MG units, ("Round Dial"), the tacho ran to 2500, not 3,000. Time the brushes for greatest "Forward" bias, no-load, push it past the peg? Yabut..2,500 was the more realistic max.

    States module box drive was introduced in 1960. The 10EE with inch/metric was first shown at IMTS in 1970.

    David
    1970 was actually pretty "late" in Monarch Machine Tool's life-span.

    "To be confirmed" from better sources than I have handy, but somewhere between 1974 and -maybe 1984, was the last year the original Monarch Machine Tool made lathes of any kind - even the slant-bed NC lathes they had bought DS&G to acquire the design of. They then motored-off to Cortland, New York to do drill presses as "Monarch Cortland"

    Present-day Monarch Lathe LP, now mebbe just Monarch Lathe, no "LP", was a new outfit created to pick-up the value and carry on. Largely that is as a service firm and top-tier rebuilder, albeit one that can, and DOES, make new parts from drawings, when appropriate.. and paid-for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by old_dave View Post
    See this timeline from 2002: History of the 10ee - Gospel according to Monarch

    States module box drive was introduced in 1960. The 10EE with inch/metric was first shown at IMTS in 1970.

    David
    I seen that time line I think in 2002, and then purchased a 1983 Monarch ee, thinking yay no vacuum tubes! Wrong! it was 1984 when the solid state regenerative drive was introduced!
    But, even though the 1983 was vacuum tubed, the solid state machine would have been a lot harder to deal with at the time.
    I have seen no overlap of the module drive, seems to be January 1960 to December 1983.

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    To add further to the "history" the inch/metric box may have been shown at IMTS earlier, AFAIK 1976 was the first year I/M 10EE's were shipped.

    Steve


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