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Modifying Monarchs problematic oiling system.

m-lud

Stainless
Joined
Sep 4, 2016
I also have a couple of opinions, each of which are their own topic.

First, I will absolutely be divorcing saddle/cross slide from the apron lube system on both the 61 and 10ee. I will lube carriage/x slide from its own one shot set up. This will stop, or slow the draining of apron oil, plus other benefits imo.

Second, I will gut all the bijur fittings, verse replace them.

See those blocked lines and the unnecessary wear ? You probably have another 4 or 5 of those metering units in apron, besides the saddle. One lube system, 10 points of failure. You can thank those pop fittings for your blocked lines and unnecessary wear.

Not just Monarch, all sorts of machines use them. And they are the #1 cause of machine damage I have seen.

I'm no doubt in a minority opinion in gutting the fittings and using them without the filter and checlve. But I'm not the only one. There may be other considerations, or issues to sort out in doing so. But in the end, I want oil to go where I'm pumping it, not maybe or hopefully. Reduce points of failure.

All the oil pumps have their own filter too, including one shots. So you don't need clogging filters in a bijur fitting.
k va
For anyone curious, I did it here in a Bridgeport:
Bridgeport Maintenance Funny Time

And starting roughly here on a 61:
Getting a Monarch Series 61 Back in Service

I borrowed TGS's Post from another thread.

Ill take a look at those links but first.
That monarch apron oiling system is a cluster of potential failure.
I agree. By time you discover feed clutches ,worm drive or half nuts aren't getting oil damage is done.
I respect those that took the time to repair theirs.
Ill have oil up to the sight glass for the gears on the apron but the pumping system will have manual pump and adjustable valves. Something like aquarium air valves for metering each oil line.
With the monarch apron system one valve stops everything. All these worn worm gears you see were ran dry and failed. Not failed yet but badly worn.
That could be poor maintenance but I don't trust it. If the worm gear oil is not dripping enough oil you cant adjust it. You have to remove the apron oil pan or the whole apron.
Make it simple stupid!

I used the aquarium air valves as an example. If they are not oil friendly or junk there are better valves. Four oil lines inside the apron can be metered by 4 small manual metering valves behind the apron.

Monarch made a system that is suppose to be idiot proof. Put oil in the sump and forget about it. That takes oiling out of mind. Not good
If they could have added a manual pump to prime and over ride the apron system.

I have spent a huge amount of time studying and reading threads about apron oil pumps not working. Its pitiful with all of the issues with it. It's not rocket science to make it better.
My carriage will be drilled for Gits ball valves but still have the oil manifold for carriage and cross feed

It was an era of machine building.. Monarch isn't the only company that had oiling systems that had failed.
Machines sitting idle for years has hurt some of these systems from working. But its evident from ground up metal parts that they quit pumping oil long before the lathe went Idle.

TGS hit a nerve with his post but I have been working on a different oiling setup.
If you read his 61 series Threads he has been planning modifications to his lathe.
Suggestions and thoughts needed
 
Oh man, I could have an all day discussion about this. . .:D :D :D

I tell you first and foremost, I like bijur one shot pumps. But the metering units, that is to say the fittings with check valves and filters, I hate. They are a disaster. The fact that they are in so many different manufacturers of machines makes me think it was a way to cause "planned obsolescence". If machines only had regular fittings and only lines they'd virtual never wear out.

Ever seen a gas or diesel engine with a tiny check valve and filter on every single oil passage in the engine ? I wonder why :D.

I have a 3rd link as well, a third machine that I started to gut those fittings. I'm embarrassed to say I started that machine in 2018 and it keeps getting pushed back. I was hoping to wrap that up after I finish the Series 61. I didn't go into as much detail though:
Oerlikon Italiana Milling Machine size "3", Model MN3H

I know you mentioned failure of 10ee oil pumps, and that may be, I'm not sure. Certainly the filters need to be serviced and oil changed maybe every couple/few years. But my knee jerk response is the pop fittings are the problem. In those other machines I mentioned they use different oil pumps. The Oerlikon uses air pressure over electric actuation, and the Bridgeport uses a one shot, which takes a circle filter like a Monarch:

101.jpg 205.jpg

Cal had some good arguments for the metering units here:
Getting a Monarch Series 61 Back in Service

Among that was a concern that gutting the bijur fittings might allow majority of oil flow to go to one passage, but starve others. This was in fact a concern for me until I could see a complete oil system in operation.

The Bridgeport was my first chance to see a fully functioning lube system with 10 totally gutted bijur fittings.
Bridgeport Maintenance Funny Time

It works. With 3 to 4 pumps of the one shot, all 10 oil passages and their destinations receive oil. Air is the path of least resistance. Once air is push out of any passage, the system as a whole builds a little pressure, feeding each passage.

The only issue I found was that without the check valves, oil in all lines begin to drain toward the lowest passage in the circuit, IF there is a large difference in heights. On the Bridgeport the knee to column ways fittings are 6 to 8 inches lower than the table and saddle. So after use, the following day or two the column ways dripped oil. To solve that I added a shutoff valve to those two fittings, you can see one in the one shot pic.

On something like carriage and cross slide lube system, the height is real close, so won't be an issue.

I have more specific Monarch ideas on the lube system, but I'll have to post tomorrow.
 
Oh man, I could have an all day discussion about this. . .:D :D :D

I tell you first and foremost, I like bijur one shot pumps. But the metering units, that is to say the fittings with check valves and filters, I hate. They are a disaster. The fact that they are in so many different manufacturers of machines makes me think it was a way to cause "planned obsolescence". If machines only had regular fittings and only lines they'd virtual never wear out.

Ever seen a gas or diesel engine with a tiny check valve and filter on every single oil passage in the engine ? I wonder why :D.

I have a 3rd link as well, a third machine that I started to gut those fittings. I'm embarrassed to say I started that machine in 2018 and it keeps getting pushed back. I was hoping to wrap that up after I finish the Series 61. I didn't go into as much detail though:
Oerlikon Italiana Milling Machine size "3", Model MN3H

I know you mentioned failure of 10ee oil pumps, and that may be, I'm not sure. Certainly the filters need to be serviced and oil changed maybe every couple/few years. But my knee jerk response is the pop fittings are the problem. In those other machines I mentioned they use different oil pumps. The Oerlikon uses air pressure over electric actuation, and the Bridgeport uses a one shot, which takes a circle filter like a Monarch:

View attachment 334494 View attachment 334495

Cal had some good arguments for the metering units here:
Getting a Monarch Series 61 Back in Service

Among that was a concern that gutting the bijur fittings might allow majority of oil flow to go to one passage, but starve others. This was in fact a concern for me until I could see a complete oil system in operation.

The Bridgeport was my first chance to see a fully functioning lube system with 10 totally gutted bijur fittings.
Bridgeport Maintenance Funny Time

It works. With 3 to 4 pumps of the one shot, all 10 oil passages and their destinations receive oil. Air is the path of least resistance. Once air is push out of any passage, the system as a whole builds a little pressure, feeding each passage.

The only issue I found was that without the check valves, oil in all lines begin to drain toward the lowest passage in the circuit, IF there is a large difference in heights. On the Bridgeport the knee to column ways fittings are 6 to 8 inches lower than the table and saddle. So after use, the following day or two the column ways dripped oil. To solve that I added a shutoff valve to those two fittings, you can see one in the one shot pic.

On something like carriage and cross slide lube system, the height is real close, so won't be an issue.

I have more specific Monarch ideas on the lube system, but I'll have to post tomorrow.



Cal has a valid point about line pressure and length. Lets say all the bejure valves were gutted. A few manual valves too choke down volume where needed will do the same thing.

Break the oiling system in two sections.
#1--Internal apron oiling.
#2--Carriage and cross feed oiling.

First section the Apron
It has four oil lines.
#1 Feed worm drive oil line
#2 Half nuts
#3 Cross feed clutch
#4 Longitude feed clutch

All four are fed oil from a small oil reservoir that is in the top of the apron. All four are gravity fed from oil pumped ,filling that reservoir.

The half nut oil passage often clogs up because when the half nuts open the port is blocked by the upper half nut slide. Grease/swarf gets in there and blocks it. Fail

The worm gear drive is oiled by gravity drain so even if the reservoir is full. It has no control of volume to keep the worm drive sump full. Poor design IMO

Of those four oil lines two loose the oil. The half nut oil goes on the half nut and the feed screw then drips into the pan.
The worm drive gear sump fills and oils the worm gears and thrust bearings and some on the shaft and drips in the pan
These shouldn't constantly drip oil but should drip some to be proof that their oiled
I would put separate oil lines and a control valve on both half nuts and worm drive gears. Adjust for what's needed. They are critical parts that need good oil control. These two oil lines can be on the outside/back of the apron.
The two feed clutches should be ok as long as the reservoir is full.
They could be oiled by a ball gits oiler valve on the clutch housing. That takes care of the apron.


Now the carriage.
Second section is the carriage and cross feed oil lines
That is fed by the apron oil pump. Its at the far end of the oiling system.

That's Cal's concern if the bejure fittings are gutted. Valid point.

If the tailstock end cover became a door and a one shot pump was put where the coolant pump sat. Then run a braded oil line too the bottom of the carriage and T'd into the oil line that runs from the apron to the carriage. Between the two to give balance in pressure. A small thumb screw valve for volume control could be used where ever needed. A check valve may be needed. No bejure
A braided oil line under the bed too follow the 24" travel back and forth would be hidden.

I dont have it all worked out. Just working on how and why.
 
I know you mentioned failure of 10ee oil pumps, and that may be, I'm not sure. Certainly the filters need to be serviced and oil changed maybe every couple/few years. But my knee jerk response is the pop fittings are the problem. In those other machines I mentioned they use different oil pumps. The Oerlikon uses air pressure over electric actuation, and the Bridgeport uses a one shot, which takes a circle filter like a Monarch:

I don't think the pumps fail as mush as clogged filters and cam follower wear. I just cant see consistent l0ng term accuracy with those bugger valves. Outdated.
I like the air over hydraulic Idea. It works well.
I have a 24" car lift that is air over hydraulic. The air ram is huge in comparison to the hydraulic ram.
 
I'm thinking unless you're a thread cutting maniac, feed rod with do grand majority. So do I need or want constant oil pressure there.

I do think oil should wash swarf off half nuts. But I'm considering two ideas here.

One is a chip guard to slip onto opened half nuts. This can be slid in or out from tail stock of apron.

The other thing I'm considering is a shut off valve for oil line half nuts. Closed and shut off while they are not in use.
 
I'm thinking unless you're a thread cutting maniac, feed rod with do grand majority. So do I need or want constant oil pressure there.

I do think oil should wash swarf off half nuts. But I'm considering two ideas here.

One is a chip guard to slip onto opened half nuts. This can be slid in or out from tail stock of apron.

The other thing I'm considering is a shut off valve for oil line half nuts. Closed and shut off while they are not in use.


I like the shutoff and the guard for the half nuts.
I don't think you would want constant pressure at the feed rod either.. Just that sump full. Once full an ocasionally drip to keep it full. My post may sound like I want to flood it. That's the thought behind the manual valves. Adjust it until its fine tuned.
Its so evident that so many of these parts were running dry. Almost every new 10ee or monarch rebuild Thread
The reasons may be everything from neglect, don't care , ignorance. I don't see high mileage often. parts worn but polished is high mileage.
I got lucky. I wont strut my worm gear photos:D
You know the difference between running dry and oiled with a lot of wear from use.
I want it simple and easy to maintain. It's not all that much to make work.

I was curious while thinking about something. The worm gear drive sump fills and may have a oil return hole into the apron behind the worm gear at the full level. Or could. That could be dirty oil. That would prevent waste and mess. I'm not sure how close that would be to the sight glass oil level.
Ill check.
I'm not locked into any plans yet.
I'm planning to get better at threading on the 10ee. Plans plans Hopefully.
 
I was curious while thinking about something. The worm gear drive sump fills and may have a oil return hole into the apron behind the worm gear at the full level. Or could. That could be dirty oil. That would prevent waste and mess. I'm not sure how close that would be to the sight glass oil level.
Ill check.
I'm not locked into any plans yet.
I'm planning to get better at threading on the 10ee. Plans plans Hopefully.

Great minds think alike. :D

That was one of two ideas i have for worm gear assembly. Drilling a drain back hole from worm pocket, into main gear box.

I dont know measurements on 10ee. I did check the 61 for this. I have like 8 1/2 to 8 3/4" to center of site glass on apron. Thats higher than i want for worm sump. Id like worm sump just a hair over worm gear bushing's bottom edge of bearing surface.

Basically i want it lubed, but not drooling all over.

My 2nd idea is to use drain plug hole. Remove plug from worm sump. Put a tee. Plug to drain on bottom of tee.

The other port of tee is 90 degrees, install a long enough nipple to get to just past apron's edge, head stock side. Intall another 90 on that end, pointing up. Now install a tube type sight glass in that 90.

Put a gits on top of that new sight glass. Keep oil level at bushing lower edge would take two or three shots from an oil can into the gits.
 
Oh man, I could have an all day discussion about this. . .:D :D :D

Ever seen a gas or diesel engine with a tiny check valve and filter on every single oil passage in the engine ? I wonder why :D.


Good stuff to ponder.

One of the reasons engines don't have individual metering devices, which would be a disaster, is their oil pumps deliver an excessive high flow rate. Without actually looking I'd estimate 5 to 10 GPM. With that volumetric flow rate it will generate pressure (and therefore flow) to each of the individual side streams (and it is all contained and returns to a sealed ish sump of course unlike a machine tool). I'd imagine a lathe lube pump delivers 1/100 of a GPM so it has to figure out a way to distribute that precious little flow. Your method of opening up the metering units and being able deliver a couple of good shots (flow of oil) is somewhere in between an engine and an OEM lathe setup.

Reliably balancing flow out of a distribution header with multiple takeoff points is indeed a challenge at low flow rates. There are many things that will
impact the flow through each individual side stream.....the metering units do work when they are perfect, but I suspect and as we have seen they degrade relatively quickly.

Brian
 
My 2nd idea is to use drain plug hole. Remove plug from worm sump. Put a tee. Plug to drain on bottom of tee.

The other port of tee is 90 degrees, install a long enough nipple to get to just past apron's edge, head stock side. Intall another 90 on that end, pointing up. Now install a tube type sight glass in that 90.

Put a gits on top of that new sight glass. Keep oil level at bushing lower edge would take two or three shots from an oil can into the gits.

I wrote this at at work, re-reading it, it may not have come across real clear. Some visual aids might help :D.

For the worm gear sump I was thinking to use this type of site glass. 4" total height, 90 degree with swivel fitting, 1/4" pipe thread:
McMaster-Carr

I happen to have one with those dimensions:

206.jpg

The oil drain hole in worm gear sump is the oil supply for the site glass. By using a 90 degree fitting, or a tee in bottom of sump, you can use fittings or a pipe to get to outer edge of apron for site glass.

I planned on opening my drain hole from 1/8 pipe to 1/4' pipe thread for this. Also I want to use a tee fitting on bottom of sump, so I can still drain oil there.

A rough visual for headstock side of a 10ee apron:

207.jpg

Potentially a chain of fittings or a tube to get to front side of a 10ee:

208.jpg

On head stock side of Series 61 I'm partially blocked by a fill cup, but for practical purposes it would work fine:

209.jpg

Might even look pretty coming to front side:

210.jpg
 
I was thinking of maybe adding a gits cup to the top cap of that. Lets say you slightly over fill. let it leak past worm bushings for a day or so, you'll know right where the level should be. You could them give it a few shots of oil through the gits prior to start up.

Those site glasses are glass and can crack if you try to loosen top cap with the body unsupported. I support the body near top of site glass with an adjustable adjusted so the wrench is a slightly loose fit. Then hold opposite pressure as I crack top loose:

211.jpg

If I do go this route, I'd eliminate, or at least block off the oil feed from apron pump to worm gear.
 
Well the picture in my head as you first painted wasn't exactly perfect, but I definitely got the idea. No question that you would be able to reliably maintain an oil level in the sump with such a setup. Not sure why, but I like the right side of the apron position.
 
I wrote this at at work, re-reading it, it may not have come across real clear. Some visual aids might help :D.

For the worm gear sump I was thinking to use this type of site glass. 4" total height, 90 degree with swivel fitting, 1/4" pipe thread:
McMaster-Carr

I happen to have one with those dimensions:

View attachment 334573

The oil drain hole in worm gear sump is the oil supply for the site glass. By using a 90 degree fitting, or a tee in bottom of sump, you can use fittings or a pipe to get to outer edge of apron for site glass.

I planned on opening my drain hole from 1/8 pipe to 1/4' pipe thread for this. Also I want to use a tee fitting on bottom of sump, so I can still drain oil there.

A rough visual for headstock side of a 10ee apron:

View attachment 334574

Potentially a chain of fittings or a tube to get to front side of a 10ee:

View attachment 334575

On head stock side of Series 61 I'm partially blocked by a fill cup, but for practical purposes it would work fine:

View attachment 334576

Might even look pretty coming to front side:

View attachment 334577

That would let you see the oil level in the worm gear sump at a quick glance. Otherwise you really cant tell it's full until its running out. I like it.
A return hole to the apron sump would keep it at the right level. Also the ability too add oil to the rear sump is a big plus . You could gain oil in the apron sump with overfill but a petcock in its drain would allow draining a little if needed.
That worm gear set and the half nuts seem to get the most damage from running dry on the apron.

With the half nuts and the Worm drive gears under control that just leaves the two feed clutches getting oil. The original apron pump could be left for doing that but a couple gits oilers could be added to the clutch housings for reassurance. The feed clutches just need a little oil and don't seem to be found dry and damaged as often.

That covers the four oil lines in the 10ee apron. Not sure if the 61 series has any more.
#1 Feed worm drive oil line
#2 Half nuts
#3 Cross feed clutch
#4 Longitude feed clutch
 
Well the picture in my head as you first painted wasn't exactly perfect, but I definitely got the idea. No question that you would be able to reliably maintain an oil level in the sump with such a setup. Not sure why, but I like the right side of the apron position.

With the worm drive gear set it's often found damaged after its to late . This is a easy way to easily check and add oil to that rear sump. With the original setup its a guess that its full. The cover doesn't allow a visual check and the original apron oil line that filled it relied on a oil line that could be too little oil or to much. No real control.
To little oil seems to be the norm.
 
Pretty sure that the one shot would still need meter units, just slightly larger ones. My experience with the one shots is that they have a pretty significant volume.

Here's what I think you're talking about:

Bijur Delimon Automatic Lubrication Systems : L18P Lubricator

The description says that the action draws in oil and compresses a spring. If the output isn't resisted the whole load of oil will be dumped through the path of least resistance (or at least much of it). I would expect that one meter unit with the guts pulled would always be that path, if all them have the guts pulled it would be the fattest or shortest pipe in the system.

If someone is having issues with excessive oil use on an apron I'd suggest that they look at the meter unit in the top of the apron. My understanding is that's supposed to be a 5psi relief so that the rest of the meter units don't see more than that in pressure and the excess is used to lubricate the apron gears. I'm pretty sure that I put that in mine and so far as I can tell I'm getting decent oil everywhere in the system.

But I could be misunderstanding all of this from the get-go.

I copied Russ's comment here from another thread, as we had in part been discussing the same things.

I mentioned earlier, Cal had a similar question as to whether the oil would choose path of least resistance if metering units were gutted. That question came here:
https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...1-back-service-380160/index7.html#post3614478

That was a real concern and question mark for me until I had a system fully tested. Which I have done now. A Bridgeport with 10 oil lines on one circuit. 10 metering units, all gutted. A one shot Bijur pump. The lines cover saddle ways, table ways, column ways, and both feed nuts for cross and long feed. It absolutely works, and everything gets oil. In that thread I have the one shot pump apart here, and scrolling down to other posts you see I gut the metering units:
Bridgeport Maintenance Funny Time

When I knew it worked, I recommended to a fella working on a Cincinnati #2 Horizontal mill. He choose to give it a try, no issues that I'm aware of. His reply here:
No power feed or gear changes on 1941 Cincinnati no2 horizontal

I'm getting an error for the link you posted, but the one shot I'm referring to is like this:
Bijur Lubrication Products - H & W Machine Repair

A knock off version, fairly cheap:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/202768400835?hash=item2f35f041c3:g:zKgAAOSwjT5c-bTJ

Why it works. . .Mostly my theory is all the oil lines, and even with gutted metering units, are fairly restrictive. The ID of those spaghetti lines is pretty small. Also the oil is room temperature. But under any normal machinery component, the ID of those parts I would class like restrictor fittings. In a fuel system, that type of ID would be put on a fuel return line to build pressure across the main system. On gear boxes with hydraulic clutches, that small ID would be used to soften gear engagement, so it doesn't radically bang into gear.

So even though we have different length lines, maybe slightly different ID to the tubing, it is all still restrictive enough to build pressure on the entire system.

Full disclosure. . . I hate those metering units :D. I'll reinvent the wheel before I reward them with more money to buy replacement fittings. We all know horror stories because of them right ? How this, the dial on my 61 is wore out because of them. The freaking dial and short shaft for cross feed ! How bad do you have to be to wear out a dial ? ? ? :D :D

160.jpg

Now that being said, I put a lot of time into building some machines. Believe me, I'm not wasting all time and effort to do something that will be worse. I want to know it will work, not just for me, but the next guy(s) too. And I'm pretty confidant it will.

Good news ! It dawned on me we can do another test. I had already gutted the metering units on the 61 carriage, and prepped it for an outside lube system. Pretty much I just need to repair the dial and install it. Hook a one shot up and see what it does:

1.jpg

Give me a few days, a week, or something. I'll get the dial squared away. We'll pump it up and see how it goes.
 
With the worm drive gear set it's often found damaged after its to late . This is a easy way to easily check and add oil to that rear sump. With the original setup its a guess that its full. The cover doesn't allow a visual check and the original apron oil line that filled it relied on a oil line that could be too little oil or to much. No real control.
To little oil seems to be the norm.

I have another issue with the worm gear assembly I wanted to address. This will apply to larger Monarchs with a drive coupling for the worm gear, but does not apply to a 10ee though.

Using a site glass of the oil drain, I think will definitely help. But the larger Monarchs have an adjacent mini chamber next to the worm sump. The drive coupling side.

The drive coupling uses a bushing like the worm gear for its shaft portion, but also uses the face of that bushing for thrust.

Assuming we fill the worm gear sump area to the bottom of its shaft, maybe oil gets to the drive coupling, it thrust and bushing area. We'll again assume lathe is leveled right, and in my case, I intend on cutting oil trenches on the bearing surfaces.

But I don't think its guaranteed as designed. Also, any oil, fluid, or whatever that gets there can never be drained, its forever trapped there. For visual perspective I'm showing two worm gear assemblies, one complete, one not. I'm circling in red the isolated mini chamber, and drive couplings for both:

212.jpg

The whole worm gear assembly gets shoved into the bore on the back side of apron. So again, even with worm gear sump filled with oil, its questionable if oil will adequately get to the 3rd bushing, and again that mini chamber can't be drained:

213.jpg

Also the worm gear itself has heavy thrust bearings helping it. The drive coupling does not. It thrusts into its bushing. Lack of lube accelerating its wear on thrust face, as well as bearing surface:

214.jpg

I have the bottom of bearings rotated up, so you can see taper pin grooves on the OD of the bushings. Those grooves are more or less on the bottom side at 6 oclock.

My solution is to cut length wise notches on center bushing, to either side of the taper pin grooves. They won't be directly at 6 oclock, but they will be close enough on bottom side to both fill and drain along with the main worm sump area. I figure two notches in case one gets plugged with garbage. I marked the one center bushing with a yellow paint marker to show what I mean:

215.jpg
 
This thread goes on and on about something that is easy to solve, so why? I think everyone here will agree that the original system worked great as delivered. The issue is one of maintenance, which many machines did not get over 70-80 years.

So why reinvent the wheel? The original Bijur units work quite well if you understand how they work and you clean the system properly and know how to test each type of component, and you bring the system up carefully, verifying each lube point, check valve, flow valve and pressure valve. The key is attention to detail and cleanliness.
 
This thread goes on and on about something that is easy to solve, so why? I think everyone here will agree that the original system worked great as delivered. The issue is one of maintenance, which many machines did not get over 70-80 years.

So why reinvent the wheel? The original Bijur units work quite well if you understand how they work and you clean the system properly and know how to test each type of component, and you bring the system up carefully, verifying each lube point, check valve, flow valve and pressure valve. The key is attention to detail and cleanliness.

I don't necessarily disagree. But there are many many people who I think were very good machinists, but not very good mechanics. They were very good at making parts, but not fully understanding the internal workings of the machine.

Rebuilding the machine, or at least tearing it down and going though it, gives you, me, and those that have done it a much more intimate understanding of the machine. So some things seem obvious to us.

Will the next guys to get our machines know ? Maybe, maybe not. Regardless those pop fittings will fail, even with oil change maintenance. Its my opinion that by eliminating the metering units, if the next guy at least keeps the oil level up, then the system won't fail.

In the mean time, we can watch, year after year of guys rebuilding their failed lube system, and the wreckage it caused. :D
 
What I see is a system that leaves you blind in the apron. The half nuts oil passage clogs at the slide. The oil level in the worm drive sump is covered with a guard. You have a reservoir that supplies oil to those parts by gravity feed. Those drain holes are at different levels for distribution. That was Monarch's way of oil distribution in the apron. The carriage oiling is an extension off of that pump.

Every lathe getting used for different jobs.
A lathe that runs a lot of short work up by the chuck. If the feeds aren't used on those jobs there is only a short amount of hand crank or cam movement. That upper reservoir may not ever fill. Cant see what's getting oil.

By the damage seen in most rebuild threads something about the system is failing. If every operator took five minutes cranking the carriage handle before using the lathe and verifying everything is pumped up all would be good.

Then you cant really see oil level in the worm drive sump .A simple positive pressure to each part would be easier with a sight glass for the worm drive.

The damage seen on some could be extensive use , but most have damage from running dry its , easy to see. Why ? It could be neglect or that it isn't getting pumped oil.

The cross feed is at the far end of the system and shows in the screw wear.
I set up machinery that used worm gear drives of similar size that were as old as these Monarch's. They had wear but the gears were mirror finish smooth. They were oiled and used daily.

I have seen threads that the OP rebuilt the factory setup and couldn.t get them working. Its relying on everything being perfect. It's old technology and Monarch wasn.t flawless in design.

I think the lathe is dam near perfect in most ways but that pump wasn't. I could make oiling system stock but don't like the blind lubrication.

Donie had a Thread on getting the lubricating system primed before each use. It involved running the carriage back and forth several times and running the cross feed across until the carriage was basically floating on oil. I thought he was proper in his intention of verifying good lubrication. But a long winded way of getting everything lubricated. It worked.

I agree with TGS that dividing the oiling system into two sections would he simple. The carriage oil lines are two equal sides that a shot of oil would distribute to evenly. Volume would have to be worked out. Not hard to do. A meter of some type may be needed. Then the apron would be on a separate line. A valve at the pump to switch lines.?
The sight glass for the worm gear drive is a good idea and would be the only thing difference in appearance on my lathe. It fits in nicely
 
With the worm drive gear set it's often found damaged after its to late . This is a easy way to easily check and add oil to that rear sump. With the original setup its a guess that its full. The cover doesn't allow a visual check and the original apron oil line that filled it relied on a oil line that could be too little oil or to much. No real control.
To little oil seems to be the norm.

With the repairs I'm doing on the 61, this thread, plus the possibility of getting parts, thought I better drop the 10ee apron to have a look. Not that I need more pieces on the floor, I'm trying to get pieces off the floor. . .:D

Figured out a few tricks from this thread in removal:
Directions on apron removal

Got it off and removed chip guard from the worm gear assembly. Yeah, maintenance was an issue, but I can tell you this didn't see a drop of oil for years:

225.jpg 226.jpg

Now I just gotta see if I can clean that gear up with some emery cloth :D :D.

I really had no doubt about using a site glass for worm assembly as mentioned above, this just solidifies it for me. I think whatever path people want to choose for their lube system, be it original or modified, I'd highly suggest sticking a site glass off the worm gear sump.
 








 
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