Module Box

John S01 · Apr 6, 2019

I have a module box on my 61 modular 10ee that is misbehaving. I know because my backup box is working great and I can't get over 450 rpm with my original box.

I noticed over the last week that the drive was hesitating a bit. I was thinking that since I replaced all of the diodes recently that I might need to set my compensation & speed pots again.

I suspected a problem with the new diodes because I made replacements using a soldering iron, & I am lousy with a soldering iron. I replaced all of the new ones with the original diodes and still have the same condition.

I have tested all of the resistors and no problem there. The capacitors all measure .90 to .98 microfarads on the capacitance test, I suppose that proves they are functional.

The potentiometers all show the same resistance as when they were new between the various poles.

The connectors are good and all stand straight up (to the tube board).

There are a few components I don't know what they are, they look like small resistors and are marked Good-All 663UW .001 5%. What are they?

Also are those box shaped things the suppressors? Mine are blue grey marked GE 5L 6RS21SA13DI3. Any suggestions on how these could be tested?
They are black in this picture marked 3D13 NG
https://farm4.static.flickr.com/3380/4629262908_9dd39bd326.jpg

I don't think I am going to send this one to Monarch for repairs because I can buy the scissio.com replacement cheaper than Monarch would fix it.

Thanks for any help :confused:

Sevenhills1952 · Apr 8, 2019

Capacitors you need to disconnect one end to test. The paper GE marked one at right looks like an electrolytic above a power resistor, my #1 suspect.

Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk

220swift · Apr 21, 2019

John

Thanks for pointing out that Scissio makes a replacement module for the 10ee 's. Has anyone tried one of the modules yet?

Hal

sneebot · Apr 21, 2019

I've run one of the Scissio modules in my machine for about a year. I feel it is smoother than the original module. It ran flawlessly for ~year. I recently had a problem with Rectifier 3 and visited Tim (Scissio) and he fixed it. This had to do with the size of the supressors which he increased. I have also been running the Thyratron replacements. I highly recommend both retrofits and Tim is a great guy to work with.

cyanidekid · Apr 21, 2019

those caps look suspect at best, with the obvious corrosion on the cans. just replace them all and go from there

John S01 · Apr 24, 2019

The pictures weren't from my lathe, but old capacitors have to be suspect. I am going to replace all 4 this weekend. I am also going to buy the scissio.com module replacement as a 2nd module board. One drawback to that replacement is that you have to mangle your connector (rip it out and put it in the replacement Tim makes - which sends your module box to the scrap heap). I am trying to fabricate a connector so that I can keep my busted one, for all the glory that gets me.

220swift · Apr 24, 2019

John S01 said:
The pictures weren't from my lathe, but old capacitors have to be suspect. I am going to replace all 4 this weekend. I am also going to buy the scissio.com module replacement as a 2nd module board. One drawback to that replacement is that you have to mangle your connector (rip it out and put it in the replacement Tim makes - which sends your module box to the scrap heap). I am trying to fabricate a connector so that I can keep my busted one, for all the glory that gets me.

John
If you don't mind take few picture when you redo your module. I would like to see how it turns out. Thank you.
I have a old module that I should do something with.

Hal

John S01 · Apr 25, 2019

Will do, do you know what Monarch asks for a new module box? Two years ago I asked for a quote - $2000.

donie · Apr 25, 2019

I have this photo of a 1983 vintage module showing replacement diodes mounted to 1/4" brass disks that snap into the holders like factory ones.

From left, diodes 9 and 10 have blown in the past, I believe Rec 3, can be seen from burn marks behind. The diodes were factory encased and spit hot plastic when they blew apart, so wear safety glasses!

The diodes are 600volt 3 amp diodes, I found they hold up better for me under the strain of metric threading-rapidity reversing the machine, then the 1000v 1amp diodes.

John S01 · Apr 26, 2019

Donie, what is that blue finned thing that looks like it is crawling out of your module and trying to get away? Looks like Monarch beefed that thing up in later years. What is it & how would you test it?

Nice diodes, very pretty.

Today I replaced all 4 caps and no dice. Good module in lathe runs great. Bad module with new caps in lathe shuts it off.

In fact it tripped the thing by the power contactor and wouldn't run until I hit the red reset button before even the good module box would work again.
Red Reset Button

I think I'll send it to scissio.com for a brain transplant. It is the original box that came with my lathe. It looks new and all of the parts are clean and shiny. As opposed to my working module box that I got from EverettEngineer. It was a kind of burned up heap that had seen really hard use. Burn marks all over the place. Soldered in diodes, and a busted potentiometer. I replaced the pot, and while doing so, a resistor I was moving around broke into two pieces. I replaced it, and I'm glad I did because this backup module box saved my bacon this time. I thought I was pretty smart to have repaired it but now I know I was just lucky because I haven't a clue how to fix this one.

John

labeeman · Apr 27, 2019

John S01 said:
Donie, what is that blue finned thing that looks like it is crawling out of your module and trying to get away? Looks like Monarch beefed that thing up in later years. What is it & how would you test it?

Nice diodes, very pretty.

Today I replaced all 4 caps and no dice. Good module in lathe runs great. Bad module with new caps in lathe shuts it off.

In fact it tripped the thing by the power contactor and wouldn't run until I hit the red reset button before even the good module box would work again.
Red Reset Button

I think I'll send it to scissio.com for a brain transplant. It is the original box that came with my lathe. It looks new and all of the parts are clean and shiny. As opposed to my working module box that I got from EverettEngineer. It was a kind of burned up heap that had seen really hard use. Burn marks all over the place. Soldered in diodes, and a busted potentiometer. I replaced the pot, and while doing so, a resistor I was moving around broke into two pieces. I replaced it, and I'm glad I did because this backup module box saved my bacon this time. I thought I was pretty smart to have repaired it but now I know I was just lucky because I haven't a clue how to fix this one.

John

Check your diodes if every thing else checks good use your good one for a comparison. The blue item in the picture is a selenium rectifier.

John S01 · Apr 27, 2019

Thanks labeeman, I have checked the diodes 7 ways to Sunday. They aren't the problem.

I looked into selenium rectifiers and saw how they can be used to rectify AC voltage. One example showed one with 4 connectors, 2 AC in, and two DC out.
I pulled out both of the selenium rectifiers and found they each had only two wires attached. I tested resistance across these terminals and measured 4.6 M Ohms across the right one, and 3.9 k Ohms between the two terminals on the left one.

Both of the wires for the right selenium rectifier went to - guess where - the minefield of the module box - Rec3! It also had a black smoke mark on it.
My busted module box
I am pretty sure this is the culprit. Tomorrow I will pull my working module box and check the resistance on the same selenium rectifier.
Notice that Donie's right side Se-rectifier is about 4 times the size of mine. No doubt a later improvement. Donie - What are the numbers on that?

Would anyone care to help me figure out a modern replacement for this thing? I don't want to put a duplicate back in there. With all due respect to Monarch, it would be like paying $30 for a 1960 diode that was never up to the task in the first place.

Afterthought - I did a web search for the numbers on mine (6RS21SA13D13) and found a link to this post yet another 10EE controller problem

labeeman · Apr 28, 2019

A diode will replace a selenium rectifier two wires one diode, 3 wires two diodes, 4 wires 4 diodes

John S01 · Apr 28, 2019

So the busted module box Se-rectifiers had a resistance of 4.6 M Ohms and 3.9 k Ohms. The working module box measured 2.9 M Ohms and 3.9 k Ohms.

I figured that if it works like a diode, it should test like a diode.
So I set the multimeter on diode test and measured forward voltage of
Working box - 1.06 V
Busted box - 1.05 V

Looks like I was on the wrong track.

donie · Apr 30, 2019

I think there are a few variations of these modules, not much info about them, My experience is limited.

I did encounter problems I thought were the module, but were actually the safety solenoids for the left hand door lock, and particular the back gear shift solenoid that prevents shifting into back gear at speed above 200rpm. Looking at back gear boxes from several machines, it is beast not to shift the back gear box under power at any speed.

It may be worth it to disconnect those solinoids to see if they are overloading the circuits.

Flightmap · May 1, 2019

Ditto on Tim. He helped me immensely and I have never looked back

Ken

labeeman · May 1, 2019

John S01 said:
So the busted module box Se-rectifiers had a resistance of 4.6 M Ohms and 3.9 k Ohms. The working module box measured 2.9 M Ohms and 3.9 k Ohms.

I figured that if it works like a diode, it should test like a diode.
So I set the multimeter on diode test and measured forward voltage of
Working box - 1.06 V
Busted box - 1.05 V

Looks like I was on the wrong track.

You may still be on the right track it looks like they are back to back rectifiers used as a voltage suppressor to protect the silicone diodes also any diode will not replace them. I have included a screen shot of the schematic there are 3 of them on the lathe.

It will only conduct when the breakdown voltage has been exceeded

A varistors can replace the item but you will need to determine the voltage needed for protection.

reidry · May 2, 2019

donie said:
I think there are a few variations of these modules, not much info about them, My experience is limited.

I did encounter problems I thought were the module, but were actually the safety solenoids for the left hand door lock, and particular the back gear shift solenoid that prevents shifting into back gear at speed above 200rpm. Looking at back gear boxes from several machines, it is beast not to shift the back gear box under power at any speed.

It may be worth it to disconnect those solinoids to see if they are overloading the circuits.

Donie,

Would you cleanup your PM box? I wanted to ask a question on another topic.

Thanks
Ryan

donie · May 3, 2019

"Donie,

Would you cleanup your PM box? I wanted to ask a question on another topic.

Thanks
Ryan "

I had to quit using the pm box because one member "now finally banned" decided he did not want me or any other machinist with actual professional experience on these machines to post on the Monarch forum.

This individual took over the Monarch forum by flooding it with post trashing the machines and those who used them, lying, and fooling many that he was an experienced professional. When in fact, he was a technical writer using those skills to fool this entire forum for years. In fact this person began stalking me, and I left this forum for several years.

One day this "person" mentioned information about me years after I had left, So, about a year or so ago I came back and started sucker punching this idiot in a way he showed the most weakness, he buckled, and after 8 years admitted he was not a machinist. He sputtered around here for a short while, and was finally banned for who knows what else he was up to.

The real problem this guy had was jealousy, he would go on attack on anyone who used newer machines or any working pro.

My PM box >I have benn told, contains this persons real name and address, this person attempted to get me to threaten him with violence, knowing I am capable of planting most anyone like an onion.

Anyway, I like these machines, I use these machines, ask any question you want, I will answer if I have one. Perhaps after some time I will clear out the PM mess.

Cal Haines · May 4, 2019

Donie,

You can to into your profile and enable e-mails, so that members can e-mail you, if you like.

Cal

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