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    Default Monarch 1000ee Conversion

    I purchased a beautiful Monarch 1000ee a month or 2 ago and am looking to get a new drive into the machine so I can use it at my current shop.

    I have 50amp 220v single phase. I do not think I will be able to get any more power in the near future and am ok with spending more money at a later date if I want to put the original DC motor back into service. When I get more space, I should also have more power and I am also saving the teardown, paint, and everything else for this time.

    The plan I am leaning towards is using a Polyspede PC1-100 and a 10hp Inverter Duty motor.

    The most recent guy I have talked to that converted his 1000ee this year said the 10hp motor runs just fine so I am not too worried about that.

    The biggest concern is that the Polyspede vfd calls for a 72amp input.

    Will I be able to run the motor with a soft start or even a normal start with my 50amps at the wall?

    Also how should I go about running the other motors in the system? (Hydraulic pump, coolant, rapids motor, oiler)
    Assuming they are all three phase motors, I think I should just get them all their own small single to three phase vfd right?

    Thanks!

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    A 3 phase 10 hp motor at 220vac should be somewhere around 30-40 amps fully loaded, less with no load or light load.

    The spec on vfd:
    PC1-100, 10HP Phase Converter

    I don't know why it has input current at 72 amps for 10hp. It may not actually be pulling those amps, but I'd have to run and check to know. But if I really needed 72amps to run a 10hp motor I think I would do something else.

    Motors that don't need variable speed, I'd use one rpc to run them all.

    Not sure your entire setup, or whats going on. But why not run the dc drive ?

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    It’s a 1000ee so it has a 20hp DC motor. I can’t run the current drive as it is a solid state 3 phase only drive and I was told it doesn’t work anyways. I want to get that lathe up and running and the 10hp should be enough for now. I’ve talked about this a bit in another thread but never came up with a plan.

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    You are trying real hard to make this work, I know it is frustrating but pounding a square peg in a round hole is ugly at best. I have a 13EE that was powered by a 10HP AC motor/inverter and it was marginal at best. The other motors want some of that 50 amps by the way. All told you likely need 85~90 amps single phase to light off the 10HP spindle and the other motors. I read the other post and in your situation, the best advice would be get a generator or power supply. A power supply could be charged at night and used for any equipment.

    Any way you go, in residential service you won't have the ability to start ANY motor over 10HP by tariff. Let alone the transformer may be marginal it self. If you get a building with three phase it comes at a cost, my power bill is 400-800 depending on demand charges, and they stay at the highest demand for 3 months. No matter how you look at it, running big machines takes power and the power is not cheap. If you are an occasional user an off grid power supply is more costly up front but, honestly cheaper in the long run.

    I replaced the 10HP motor/inverter with a 15HP, it is much better matched to the machine. The 10HP motor was using a three phase inverter the rotating mass just overwhelmed the motor. It did work, with the hydraulic pump and rapid traverse motor it was a noisy machine. I added a lube pump in the hydraulic tank and don't run the hydraulic pump unless needed. The traverse motor is 1/3 HP? The lube pump is a small gear pump maybe 1/4 HP? Coolant is 1 1/2 or 2HP. You may be able to use the 10HP inverter but, it will likely be very touchy, even with plenty of power my motor tripped the inverter often. Find a way to use the DC motor if it requires a bank of lead acid batteries. In the long run you will be dollars ahead. Spending a bunch of money on a poor alternative is just going to disappoint. By the way, I wanted to use a 20HP AC motor, none of the form factors I found or could afford would physically fit in the base. The 15 HP motor is really the min the lathe needs to be responsive IMHO.

    Steve

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    Yeah I am trying very hard haha. I love the machine and don’t regret getting it even though it doesn’t seem like I can run the thing. I have a couple 10ees as well so maybe I’ll just get one of those running to satisfy my Monarch needs.

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    Just broad brush strokes here...

    Looks like you'll need a 20 hp 3 phase to replace the 20 hp dc spindle motor. 100 amp circuit on single phase will cover that with a 25 or 30 hp VFD.

    I am running a 30 hp vfd to a 20 hp 3 phase on my mazak M4 on a 100 amp circuit.

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    My first thought is that the 1000EE has a lot going on, that if you could make it go would probably be nicer than a retro.

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    In some other threads we've begun discussing rpc driven 3 phase dc drives. You might find that more cost effective, plus keep the use of your dc motor.

    Starting a dc motor and drive won't pull hard amps like starting a 10-20 hp ac motor. A dc motor will pull more amps as you work it harder.

    If you stuck some amp gauges on either or both your shop supply voltage and rpc voltage, you could probably run a 20hp dc drive, then watch amps on the gauges for certain loads or depth of cuts to know how hard you can run. Maybe some amp meters like this:
    3 Phase Options for DC Drive Systems

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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    In some other threads we've begun discussing rpc driven 3 phase dc drives. You might find that more cost effective, plus keep the use of your dc motor.
    No, he will not.

    He would be worse-off, not better.

    He has just about exactly enough power to operate a single-phase 10/12 HP DC Drive that can run his existing 20 HP DC motor at roughly HALF power and less than half as good a regulation under load as OEM.

    RTFM. 48 A. Add power for the field. There's your 50A.

    There is no "conversion" involved. Very nearly 100% of the 50 A out of the wall reaches the spindle.

    All a thyristor-class DC drive does is switch the available power ASKED for ON or OFF .... as demanded. At very nearly 100% efficiency.

    That's why they have no need of cooling fans. Near-zero WASTE.

    3-Phase DC Drives are just as efficient. Also smoother.

    But the conversion needed in front of their input when you haveth NOT "native" three-phase is NOT 100% efficient.

    ANY, repeat ANY conversion, be it Phase-Perfect or RPC for a 3-Phase DC Drive, or a VFD's built-in conversion, loses more of the limited available power as wasted heat. That's why VFD and Phase-Perfect DO have cooling fans. Waste heat.

    10-12 HP off a single-phase Thyristor-class DC Drive is the best he can get so long as all he has is 50 A @ 240 VAC, split-phase for power rations.

    Steve makes chips at half OEM power with a 15 HP AC motor + VFD.
    But Steve HAS 'native' 3-Phase power.

    And plenty OF it.

    Closer to full 20 HP Dee Cee power requires a THIRTY HP AC motor when in variable-speed type of service.

    "Old news". Looong known. VERY well known and long proven.

    "Wishing" longer and louder that 50 A @ 240 VAC was 100A ... or better.. and 3-Phase @ 480 VAC, three bags full, if you please, given "wishing" is sort of open-ended?

    ...will NOT "make it so."

    TANSTAAFL

    In love with VFD? Just go and do that.
    50 A @ 240 VAC supply could give you about 40% power instead of 50%?
    AC motor is good for 2/3'rds the work of DC in a variable-speed machine-tool spindle?

    No problem. You get about 6 HP useful instead of 10 HP? That will still make chips.

    Want to run it off a Diesel?

    Even if the gen set was "free", as in free lunch, free beer, free health care, or even free sex??

    Somebody has to also "find" around one gallon of #2 Diesel fuel per each load HP.

    Per power-on operating hour.

    Not new news, either. Rent a gen set for one week out of the year? Be happy.

    I did say "There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"?

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    Default Monarch 1000ee Conversion

    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Want to run it off a Diesel?

    Even if the gen set was "free", as in free lunch, free beer, free health care, or even free sex??

    Somebody has to also "find" around one gallon of #2 Diesel fuel per each load HP.

    Per power-on operating hour.

    Not new news, either. Rent a gen set for one week out of the year? Be happy.

    I did say "There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"?
    I believe that the second law of thermodynamics also said something to that effect…
    Particularly applicable to “free” sex?

    Not sure what his neighbor situation is, but a diesel generator doesn’t sound like anything that could work for me or many others who want to be a good neighbor.

    The idea of a huge bank of solar charged batteries has some appeal to me other than the non-trivial hassle of safe battery storage and maintenance and then you still have the conversion losses of inverting it to AC so it can then be sliced back into DC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpseguin View Post
    I believe that the second law of thermodynamics also said something to that effect…
    Particularly applicable to “free” sex?

    Not sure what his neighbor situation is, but a diesel generator doesn’t sound like anything that could work for me or many others who want to be a good neighbor.

    The idea of a huge bank of solar charged batteries has some appeal to me other than the non-trivial hassle of safe battery storage and maintenance and then you still have the conversion losses of inverting it to AC so it can then be sliced back into DC.
    Noise of a Diesel is not hard at all to tame.
    Exhaust pollution is not easy to tame.

    Getting the cost down to compete with a grid that has already added wind and solar on an "industrial" scale to coal, oil, nat gas, nukes, hydro power, and pumped storage ...also on a grand scale... is impossible.

    The long-term sane approach is to do what living things have ALWAYS done since fins, feet, wings, belly-scales, or feet displaced "roots".

    Pack up yer s**t ....or yer clam or snail-shell.

    Go where the resources you need DO exist.

    Our appetite is self-propelled.

    We be more "portable" than the resources we seek.

    Shark starts legislating he should be able to sit on his claspers and have seal-meals delivered by gobernment fiat paid for by other sharkies money like a "filter feeder" oyster .... or a mold or fungus?

    Shark starves. Other hungry sharks then eat HIM. Or bacteria do, if they miss his demise whilst still edible.

    See "1600 Pennsylvania Avenue" as the current buffet meal for carrion-scavengers and other opportunistic bacteria.

    T'was ever thus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post

    ANY, repeat ANY conversion, be it Phase-Perfect or RPC for a 3-Phase DC Drive, or a VFD's built-in conversion, loses more of the limited available power as wasted heat. That's why VFD and Phase-Perfect DO have cooling fans. Waste heat.

    10-12 HP off a single-phase Thyristor-class DC Drive is the best he can get so long as all he has is 50 A @ 240 VAC, split-phase for power rations.
    I have several reasons for checking amps, but this is good example of reason. When I asked everettengr to check amps on various conditions, he replied here:
    Parker/Eurotherm 514C/507 4Q SSD DC Retrofit into 1961 10EE Modular

    I think a single phase dc drive may be more efficient, but if we're considering different systems for cost and other factors.. . Dropping a multi meter with amp clamp on supply voltage to building, rpc, drive system etc, then we can see the real amps being pulled that include unknown or unseen factors.

    We have charlieman22 in another thread running a 460v setup with rpc, and hopefully he'll give us amp readings when he gets to it:
    Resurrecting 1960 10EE with 460V Sabina drive

    And rpseguin has his L & S AVS with 15hp dc drive being shipped. Be curious to see his actual amp readings. Thread here:
    Lodge & Shipley AVS 2013

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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    I have several reasons for checking amps, but this is good example of reason. When I asked everettengr to check amps on various conditions, he replied here:
    Parker/Eurotherm 514C/507 4Q SSD DC Retrofit into 1961 10EE Modular

    I think a single phase dc drive may be more efficient, but if we're considering different systems for cost and other factors.. . Dropping a multi meter with amp clamp on supply voltage to building, rpc, drive system etc, then we can see the real amps being pulled that include unknown or unseen factors.

    We have charlieman22 in another thread running a 460v setup with rpc, and hopefully he'll give us amp readings when he gets to it:
    Resurrecting 1960 10EE with 460V Sabina drive
    Ned's giving us better value than readings. Same as Mark had done.

    Proof of actual chip-making.

    Their Amperage draw will depend on how aggressive the cut. As it always does.


    And rpseguin has his L & S AVS with 15hp dc drive being shipped. Be curious to see his actual amp readings. Thread here:
    Lodge & Shipley AVS 2013
    Same again. Ralph's Amperage draw will depend on how aggressive the cut. The meter he needs was already built-in. At the factory. A "refresh" is cheap and easy. Analog OR digital.

    ALL these DC drives have terminals already furnished to manage a load-meter so one can keep an eye on power budget whilst IN the cut, too.

    As to random readings?

    Take all of those you want if it makes you feel better than just wandering around. Publish them if your goal is to confuse more folks, faster.

    They are meaningless unless evaluating a specific CNC-controlled cut, same material, DOC, and rate of feed, comparing one "insert" to another.

    Meaningless essentially always for a manual lathe, hand-ground tooling especially.

    In no case will a "reading" change the physics in the least.

    Alcro's problem has nought to do with "meters" in any case.

    50 Amps @ 240 VAC is still what it is. Whether you put a 'permanent" meter on it, log a reading twice in every hour. Or never.

    The reading that matters is known ahead of time:
    "Not enough" to fully power the load at hand.

    Meanwhile.. roofing season has arrived for me.

    WHEN I again get the time to play at the test bench?

    Two 3-Phase DC Drives have joined my single-phase menagerie, a third 3-Phase DC Drive is already inbound.

    Along with a second "Field Regulator" - good for EITHER of single or three phase DC Drives. A third is being hunted.

    Will I be publishing Amperage draw?

    No. Only output waveforms. RPC vs Phase-Perfect or "true" 3-Phase (Generator set. Built for 3-Phase service. But not-only).

    The late Norton Leigh Bassett and I never got a round-tuit as to building ourselves the portable dynamometer we were cogitating over.

    Amperage readings taken at unquantifiable loads are every bit as useless as those taken at no-load are.

    It is all about "unseen factors". We even know what they are.

    The load ..as imposed by cutting forces. Or by a dummy load.
    That's why we need a dynomometer.

    Dummy load. No steel has to die. "Insert" or hand-ground no longer a factor.

    If you HAVE no such load .. one that can be replicated identically and even calibrated?

    Don't publish nonsense figures.

    All that does is attract Whining Wild Turkey drama-queen trolls... and other horseflies.

    We've had far too much of that foolish nonsense, already.

    FACTS are good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Ned's giving us better value than readings. Same as Mark had done.

    Proof of actual chip-making.

    Their Amperage draw will depend on how aggressive the cut. As it always does.




    FACTS are good.
    Wouldn't that apply to alcro1998 as well ?

    If starting the dc drive is negligible on amp draw, and motor in rush is not the same as with an AC motor. . .

    Couldn't he use the 20hp dc motor and drive, but limit how aggressive the cut is ? If he could maintain 3 to 5hp I would think he could still take decent cuts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    Wouldn't that apply to alcro1998 as well ?

    If starting the dc drive is negligible on amp draw, and motor in rush is not the same as with an AC motor. . .

    Couldn't he use the 20hp dc motor and drive, but limit how aggressive the cut is ? If he could maintain 3 to 5hp I would think he could still take decent cuts.
    My guess is you would need to, at the very least, re-tune the drive/controller to not try to deliver full current (horsepower). Otherwise the drive is going to ask for that current (horsepower) pretty often, for example to spin up the spindle with a heavy piece of stock, even if there is no cut. Question would be if the drive/controller could be tuned down that much and still maintain stable control of the dc motor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rabler View Post
    My guess is you would need to, at the very least, re-tune the drive/controller to not try to deliver full current (horsepower). Otherwise the drive is going to ask for that current (horsepower) pretty often, for example to spin up the spindle with a heavy piece of stock, even if there is no cut. Question would be if the drive/controller could be tuned down that much and still maintain stable control of the dc motor.
    Yes, they (All) can.

    Even the tiny ones have ramp-up rate, ramp-down rate, sensitivity and stability trimpots. Or equivalent PLA stored numerical settings.

    Basically, you TELL it how much stability you need.

    Among the common uses are spooler and tensioners, stretching of materials in the rubber, sheet-metal, wire, and textile industries, cooperative // linked or master/slave groupings used to accelerate and decelerate heavy conveyor lines.

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    To rabler and Bill H's last comments:

    That's also part of my question, and something we began discussing with using an rpc and 3 phase drives.

    If we can use a larger drive on a smaller motor, and regulate it, and add protections. . . With the result being let's say a 15 or 20hp drive running a 5hp motor. . .

    Then for the op here in this thread, is not the same or similar possible ? Either regulate a 20 or 15hp drive down to run his 20hp motor at 5 to 10hp, or is it possible to use a 5 or 10hp drive to run his 20hp motor ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    To rabler and Bill H's last comments:

    That's also part of my question, and something we began discussing with using an rpc and 3 phase drives.

    If we can use a larger drive on a smaller motor, and regulate it, and add protections. . . With the result being let's say a 15 or 20hp drive running a 5hp motor. . .

    Then for the op here in this thread, is not the same or similar possible ? Either regulate a 20 or 15hp drive down to run his 20hp motor at 5 to 10hp, or is it possible to use a 5 or 10hp drive to run his 20hp motor ?
    Should be worth a try. Results may not be satisfactory, but unlikely to damage anything as long as an appropriate circuit breaker is in use. You’d need documentation on the drive to see if appropriate adjustments exist. For example the 10EE modular doesn’t have any factory documented adjustments that would allow that type of thing.

    I’d want to know what shape the motor was in before going down this road.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rabler View Post
    Should be worth a try. Results may not be satisfactory, but unlikely to damage anything as long as an appropriate circuit breaker is in use. You’d need documentation on the drive to see if appropriate adjustments exist. For example the 10EE modular doesn’t have any factory documented adjustments that would allow that type of thing.

    I’d want to know what shape the motor was in before going down this road.
    That's what I'm thinking.

    A 10ee is usually 3 and 5 hp. They do pretty well right ? Yeah this machine is bigger, but its still only what ? 16" actual swing ?

    Surely it does not take 10 hp to spin the spindle and move apron up and down ways. If his shop's ceiling is 50amps, My knee jerk reaction is somehow, someway I could get 3 to 5hp at tool tip and be under that 50 amp ceiling. And if I can get 3 to 5 hp at tool tip, the actual machine performance would be pretty good.

    Yea not 20hp good . But I'd take what I could get.

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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    That's what I'm thinking.

    A 10ee is usually 3 and 5 hp. They do pretty well right ? Yeah this machine is bigger, but its still only what ? 16" actual swing ?

    Surely it does not take 10 hp to spin the spindle and move apron up and down ways. If his shop's ceiling is 50amps, My knee jerk reaction is somehow, someway I could get 3 to 5hp at tool tip and be under that 50 amp ceiling. And if I can get 3 to 5 hp at tool tip, the actual machine performance would be pretty good.

    Yea not 20hp good . But I'd take what I could get.
    "What you can get" is right in the drive's manual. No drive maker - major or minor - has any interest in trying to boolshit Big Corp or national Defense establishments.

    So the manuals are spot-on, even conservative.

    50A @ 240 VAC is 12 kVA.

    "Motor" HP calculates to 1.341 HP per kW.
    Put another way 1 HP = 3/4 kW

    "In theory", that 12 kVA is good for 12 * 1.341 = 16 motor HP.

    You won't quite "get there" with a "starved" 20 HP DC motor on 60 pervent rations. They are good, but not perfectly linear.

    You WILL get 10 to 12 HP.

    And that's "DC" performance. Gobs of "constant RESERVE torque".
    Keep ypur Field and Armture controls knobs independnet? One can CHOSOE high RPM, pay for the shortfall in reduced Torwque' Or choose high Torque, pay for the shortfall in reduced max RPM.

    Dial whichever compromise a specific tasking needs, AS it needs it.

    Try that with a VFD? Not as simple as two knobs.

    Whadyah guess? Six to twelve numbers to change with keypad and screen to reprioritize Volts/Hz to optime for the tasking?

    So, mostly, one does not even bother.

    Simply sets a decent compromise into the VFD, goes away to "make chips"...

    ... with the acceptance that a nominal 10 HP AC motor run in variable speed/torque application .....is about the same as a 6.7 HP DC motor, same tasking.

    A nominal 15 HP AC motor - as Steve HAS power enough to run?

    Is about the same as an 11 HP DC motor.

    Well 'scuse me?

    50A split-phase won't RUN a 15 HP AC motor to act as if it was 11 HP.

    50A split-phase CAN ran the existing DC motor @ 10 to 12 HP.

    Better news yet? Same rig, not a dime in further spend can provide 100% of OEM 20 HP...if/as/when you can find roughly a hundred Amps to feed it, rather than just 50A.

    No "mystery" to it. Not a lot of "guesswork", either.

    Most of the DC Drives on the market are heir to anywhere from 20 to 50-plus years of proven design with but modest revision.

    Most have field experience in high enough unit-count to have proven they do what they say they do.

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