Monarch 1000ee Conversion - Page 2

1. Cast Iron
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Obviously the motor no-load current sets a bottom end to how far you can push this. AC motors in particular tend to use reactive power running no load. Basically this means they are drawing power and then returning power to the grid during every half-cycle of 60Hz. This is the “power factor” Bill referred to earlier. So operating at 50% limited should be easy, 25% marginal. Measuring no load current gives you some look at the bottom end.

2. Diamond
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Originally Posted by rabler
Obviously the motor no-load current sets a bottom end to how far you can push this. AC motors in particular tend to use reactive power running no load. Basically this means they are drawing power and then returning power to the grid during every half-cycle of 60Hz. This is the “power factor” Bill referred to earlier. So operating at 50% limited should be easy, 25% marginal. Measuring no load current gives you some look at the bottom end.
DC motors are "ultimately" the same animal as AC. Electromagnetic poles must attract ELSE nothing MOVES.

But they go about it with "local", internal, switchover, commutator or solid-state equivalent ("brushless").

AC that causation is external ... and some degree or another of "remote". (VFD or Grid).

DC cannot "slip". So it becomes "active" at very low Voltage as a percent of "base" RPM Voltage. CEMF range is accordingly a very wide one. DC motors - of the sort we use for machine-tools - are MEANT for highly variable tasking.

All that said, DC starts to creep at initial levels of power ... 5% when we run a nominally 230/240 VDC 10EE motor off a single 12 V auto battery?

At 5% of nominal Voltage, an AC induction motor is still just sitting - humming and warming the mass of its ass.

A 20 HP DC motor at half rations doesn't know or care if the "half" is off a 20 HP drive intentionally demanding only half. Or off a 10 HP drive at full gallop.

No magic. It eats wotever is put onto its plate , s**ts motation, accordingly.

That's part of why they still have a JOB!

3. Cast Iron
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Originally Posted by thermite
DC motors are "ultimately" the same animal as AC. Electromagnetic poles must attract ELSE nothing MOVES.
...

At 5% of nominal Voltage, an AC induction motor is still just sitting - humming and warming the mass of its ass.

A 20 HP DC motor at half rations doesn't know or care if the "half" is off a 20 HP drive intentionally demanding only half. Or off a 10 HP drive at full gallop.

No magic. It eats wotever is put onto its plate , s**ts motation, accordingly.

Agreed.

But to answer texasgunsmith's question with a practical answer: The drive/controller adds another layer. At some point, whether DC motor and controller, or induction motor and VFD, you reach a bottom end where you're just out of the design range of the system. That figure may be significantly lower for a DC based system, but the controller may add some interesting switching artifacts and overhead that aren't going to play well if you try to try to feed it with a power line that has too small of an amperage rating. Engineered to deliver just a bit of voltage and current to the motor doesn't necessarily mean also engineered to work with an extremely out-of-range power line input. Monarch's own implementations are a clear example of that. 5 amps at single phase 230V should give you ballpark 1 1/2 horsepower, but getting a stock 10EE to work on a 5amp fuse would be challenging.

TLDR; The farther you try to derate the system the more challenging it's going to get to make it function, much less work effectively as a lathe.

4. Diamond
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Originally Posted by rabler
Agreed.

But to answer texasgunsmith's question with a practical answer: The drive/controller adds another layer. At some point, whether DC motor and controller, or induction motor and VFD, you reach a bottom end where you're just out of the design range of the system. That figure may be significantly lower for a DC based system, but the controller may add some interesting switching artifacts and overhead that aren't going to play well if you try to try to feed it with a power line that has too small of an amperage rating. Engineered to deliver just a bit of voltage and current to the motor doesn't necessarily mean also engineered to work with an extremely out-of-range power line input. Monarch's own implementations are a clear example of that. 5 amps at single phase 230V should give you ballpark 1 1/2 horsepower, but getting a stock 10EE to work on a 5amp fuse would be challenging.

TLDR; The farther you try to derate the system the more challenging it's going to get to make it function, much less work effectively as a lathe.
That may be the "theory" in a classroom if you've never had your hands (and meters & "scope) on a "real one".

In the "real world" the DC motor and DC Drive are far too indifferent to give a damn about "cannot". So they JF work with whatever is on their terminals.

Analog Logic. Gotta love it!

There's a "Digital" DC Drive out for delivery... Monday if not today.

I think I'm going to dislike that one!
Itty-bitty display? peeking and poking numbers? Much akin to those 3 VFD I threw away as annoying nuisances.

Life is too DAMNED short to drink bad wine, tolerate shiddy 'puters, or share a blanket with a b***h.

5. Originally Posted by thermite

You WILL get 10 to 12 HP.

50A split-phase CAN ran the existing DC motor @ 10 to 12 HP.
Without seeing his whole shop set up, I don't know an exact answer, but I was guessing he can't do a full 50a at the drive or motor.

Figuring shop lights, and other small loads like frig, air conditioner, etc that may be on and lowering that number from 50a.

Op also mentioned coolant pump, hydraulics and such too. Might require an additional rpc for that.

Just a guess, but I was thinking he probably has 30-35 amps he can devote to spindle drive. Might be able to push that number up, but I wouldn't know until I saw what else might be drawing, and what that amp number is.

6. Diamond
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Originally Posted by texasgunsmith
Without seeing his whole shop set up, I don't know an exact answer, but I was guessing he can't do a full 50a at the drive or motor.
There IS NO "exact answer". It is a variable speed, variable torque, adaptable workload environment and "CEMF exists".

"Run what you GOT", IOW.

And I'm not "guessing".

I happen to be aware of what breakers & fuses ACTUALLY trip out at, and how rapidly. Around 135% of nominal rating can be sustained for more than just a "little while." Standard. Not even "Slo-Blo".

Even if he hits the DC Drive's 150% for 60-second overload, it will be briefly enough it is waay less than breakers & fuses routinely tolerate to start an RPC idler or an AC induction motor.

Cruising along with piddly stuff at 3, 5, or 7 HP? That won't really stress the 50 A service.

There's no starting inrush on a single-phase DC drive 'coz there's no RPC involved.

All he'd have is the "thunk" of the single-phase Voltage boost transformer being energized. Those can be soft-started for peanuts in hardware "IF need be".

DC Drives & DC motors are already VERY "soft" start-capable. Downright sneaky, even!

From the experience of quite a few years, we already know that a 15 A to 20 A SQ-D "QO" breaker doesn't mind hauling 3 HP and 5 HP load-motors, other side of a 514C-16. Proven. Not theory. So around 40 A should do for a 514C-32.

The manual sez max a 514C-32 asks for, AC side, is 48 A.
Even then ONLY when at full-gallop.

Roughly 50% of OEM power for a 1000EE?
Meahhh... not exactly "shabby".

I woz only at 47.7% of max in the vintage 2005 XJ8 when clocked at 82 MPH...
That was costly enough!

The full 172 MPH? Or the 2005 "XJR" model's over 200 MPH?
They'd probably have called in a helicopter gunship to take me out!

New ones are more powerful than 2005 models, too.

As with a 1000EE? Yah just hafta limit yer appetites!

Figuring shop lights, and other small loads like frig, air conditioner, etc that may be on and lowering that number from 50a.

Op also mentioned coolant pump, hydraulics and such too. Might require an additional rpc for that.

Just a guess, but I was thinking he probably has 30-35 amps he can devote to spindle drive. Might be able to push that number up, but I wouldn't know until I saw what else might be drawing, and what that amp number is.
He won't even be pulling the full 10 HP. Certainly not after the first time the drive faults or the CB trips, anyway!

All he has to do is hang onto the OEM DC motor AND NOT dive down an even MORE underpowered Vee Effing Dee rabbit-hole until the day cometh he DOES have enough power to run it at full-gallop. Or has gotten used to it at half-rations?

And even then, he won't dooo that any more often than I ever got even CLOSE to pulling the full FIFTY Dee-Cee HP on a big ole Niles I usta earn my crust with,

Nor a 20 hoss "Warn-her I'm crazy!"
W&S didn't take a lot of prisoners, either.

There is....shall we say.. a "certain amount of DRAMA" in that level of chip-ripping?

He can make beaucoup chips with it even crippled, "learn" to not overload the "crippled" 20 HP motor.

MOST hobbyists don't even RUN coolant for lathe turning, and too-many don't even use it for milling.

Lighting can be LED if it is not already.

Fridge? HVAC? Could be on separate service, already... if even there at all?

REALLY short of rations?

Don't go renting a big-ass gen set to run the 1000EE.

Put the OTHER s**t" on a small(er) gen set ....so the 1000EE gets ALL of the 50A.

7. Titanium
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After reading (and almost understanding) the whole thread, I'd look seriously at improving supply. All this repowering, just as a temporary fix?

Up the incoming amperage capability and the situation jumps ahead in time to something that's desired and gonna happen anyway. No repowering necessary and the goal of better supply has been achieved. An expensive step has been skipped, the OP has saved a bunch of time and maybe even ended up with a more salable machine.

What single phase amperage entrance is required to run the machine? 200A enough? Seems very doable. (Yeah, I know, easy enough for me to say .) What problems lie in the way of achieving it?

8. Aluminum
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Honestly at this point I am just going to put the project on the back burner and restore a 10ee I have. I can see my self getting more space in the next year and the new shop will probably have more power! Thanks for all the suggestions and I will revisit this post when the time comes.