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Monarch 1000ee Conversion

alcro1998

Cast Iron
Joined
Nov 10, 2020
Location
Central Ohio
I purchased a beautiful Monarch 1000ee a month or 2 ago and am looking to get a new drive into the machine so I can use it at my current shop.

I have 50amp 220v single phase. I do not think I will be able to get any more power in the near future and am ok with spending more money at a later date if I want to put the original DC motor back into service. When I get more space, I should also have more power and I am also saving the teardown, paint, and everything else for this time.

The plan I am leaning towards is using a Polyspede PC1-100 and a 10hp Inverter Duty motor.

The most recent guy I have talked to that converted his 1000ee this year said the 10hp motor runs just fine so I am not too worried about that.

The biggest concern is that the Polyspede vfd calls for a 72amp input.

Will I be able to run the motor with a soft start or even a normal start with my 50amps at the wall?

Also how should I go about running the other motors in the system? (Hydraulic pump, coolant, rapids motor, oiler)
Assuming they are all three phase motors, I think I should just get them all their own small single to three phase vfd right?

Thanks!
 
A 3 phase 10 hp motor at 220vac should be somewhere around 30-40 amps fully loaded, less with no load or light load.

The spec on vfd:
PC1-100, 10HP Phase Converter

I don't know why it has input current at 72 amps for 10hp. It may not actually be pulling those amps, but I'd have to run and check to know. But if I really needed 72amps to run a 10hp motor I think I would do something else.

Motors that don't need variable speed, I'd use one rpc to run them all.

Not sure your entire setup, or whats going on. But why not run the dc drive ?
 
It’s a 1000ee so it has a 20hp DC motor. I can’t run the current drive as it is a solid state 3 phase only drive and I was told it doesn’t work anyways. I want to get that lathe up and running and the 10hp should be enough for now. I’ve talked about this a bit in another thread but never came up with a plan.
 
You are trying real hard to make this work, I know it is frustrating but pounding a square peg in a round hole is ugly at best. I have a 13EE that was powered by a 10HP AC motor/inverter and it was marginal at best. The other motors want some of that 50 amps by the way. All told you likely need 85~90 amps single phase to light off the 10HP spindle and the other motors. I read the other post and in your situation, the best advice would be get a generator or power supply. A power supply could be charged at night and used for any equipment.

Any way you go, in residential service you won't have the ability to start ANY motor over 10HP by tariff. Let alone the transformer may be marginal it self. If you get a building with three phase it comes at a cost, my power bill is 400-800 depending on demand charges, and they stay at the highest demand for 3 months. No matter how you look at it, running big machines takes power and the power is not cheap. If you are an occasional user an off grid power supply is more costly up front but, honestly cheaper in the long run.

I replaced the 10HP motor/inverter with a 15HP, it is much better matched to the machine. The 10HP motor was using a three phase inverter the rotating mass just overwhelmed the motor. It did work, with the hydraulic pump and rapid traverse motor it was a noisy machine. I added a lube pump in the hydraulic tank and don't run the hydraulic pump unless needed. The traverse motor is 1/3 HP? The lube pump is a small gear pump maybe 1/4 HP? Coolant is 1 1/2 or 2HP. You may be able to use the 10HP inverter but, it will likely be very touchy, even with plenty of power my motor tripped the inverter often. Find a way to use the DC motor if it requires a bank of lead acid batteries. In the long run you will be dollars ahead. Spending a bunch of money on a poor alternative is just going to disappoint. By the way, I wanted to use a 20HP AC motor, none of the form factors I found or could afford would physically fit in the base. The 15 HP motor is really the min the lathe needs to be responsive IMHO.

Steve
 
Yeah I am trying very hard haha. I love the machine and don’t regret getting it even though it doesn’t seem like I can run the thing. I have a couple 10ees as well so maybe I’ll just get one of those running to satisfy my Monarch needs.
 
Just broad brush strokes here...

Looks like you'll need a 20 hp 3 phase to replace the 20 hp dc spindle motor. 100 amp circuit on single phase will cover that with a 25 or 30 hp VFD.

I am running a 30 hp vfd to a 20 hp 3 phase on my mazak M4 on a 100 amp circuit.
 
In some other threads we've begun discussing rpc driven 3 phase dc drives. You might find that more cost effective, plus keep the use of your dc motor.

Starting a dc motor and drive won't pull hard amps like starting a 10-20 hp ac motor. A dc motor will pull more amps as you work it harder.

If you stuck some amp gauges on either or both your shop supply voltage and rpc voltage, you could probably run a 20hp dc drive, then watch amps on the gauges for certain loads or depth of cuts to know how hard you can run. Maybe some amp meters like this:
3 Phase Options for DC Drive Systems
 
Want to run it off a Diesel?

Even if the gen set was "free", as in free lunch, free beer, free health care, or even free sex??

Somebody has to also "find" around one gallon of #2 Diesel fuel per each load HP.

Per power-on operating hour.

Not new news, either. Rent a gen set for one week out of the year? Be happy.

I did say "There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"?

I believe that the second law of thermodynamics also said something to that effect…
Particularly applicable to “free” sex?

Not sure what his neighbor situation is, but a diesel generator doesn’t sound like anything that could work for me or many others who want to be a good neighbor.

The idea of a huge bank of solar charged batteries has some appeal to me other than the non-trivial hassle of safe battery storage and maintenance and then you still have the conversion losses of inverting it to AC so it can then be sliced back into DC.
 
ANY, repeat ANY conversion, be it Phase-Perfect or RPC for a 3-Phase DC Drive, or a VFD's built-in conversion, loses more of the limited available power as wasted heat. That's why VFD and Phase-Perfect DO have cooling fans. Waste heat.

10-12 HP off a single-phase Thyristor-class DC Drive is the best he can get so long as all he has is 50 A @ 240 VAC, split-phase for power rations.

I have several reasons for checking amps, but this is good example of reason. When I asked everettengr to check amps on various conditions, he replied here:
Parker/Eurotherm 514C/507 4Q SSD DC Retrofit into 1961 10EE Modular

I think a single phase dc drive may be more efficient, but if we're considering different systems for cost and other factors.. . Dropping a multi meter with amp clamp on supply voltage to building, rpc, drive system etc, then we can see the real amps being pulled that include unknown or unseen factors.

We have charlieman22 in another thread running a 460v setup with rpc, and hopefully he'll give us amp readings when he gets to it:
Resurrecting 1960 10EE with 460V Sabina drive

And rpseguin has his L & S AVS with 15hp dc drive being shipped. Be curious to see his actual amp readings. Thread here:
Lodge & Shipley AVS 2013
 
Ned's giving us better value than readings. Same as Mark had done.

Proof of actual chip-making.

Their Amperage draw will depend on how aggressive the cut. As it always does.




FACTS are good.

Wouldn't that apply to alcro1998 as well ?

If starting the dc drive is negligible on amp draw, and motor in rush is not the same as with an AC motor. . .

Couldn't he use the 20hp dc motor and drive, but limit how aggressive the cut is ? If he could maintain 3 to 5hp I would think he could still take decent cuts.
 
Wouldn't that apply to alcro1998 as well ?

If starting the dc drive is negligible on amp draw, and motor in rush is not the same as with an AC motor. . .

Couldn't he use the 20hp dc motor and drive, but limit how aggressive the cut is ? If he could maintain 3 to 5hp I would think he could still take decent cuts.

My guess is you would need to, at the very least, re-tune the drive/controller to not try to deliver full current (horsepower). Otherwise the drive is going to ask for that current (horsepower) pretty often, for example to spin up the spindle with a heavy piece of stock, even if there is no cut. Question would be if the drive/controller could be tuned down that much and still maintain stable control of the dc motor.
 
To rabler and Bill H's last comments:

That's also part of my question, and something we began discussing with using an rpc and 3 phase drives.

If we can use a larger drive on a smaller motor, and regulate it, and add protections. . . With the result being let's say a 15 or 20hp drive running a 5hp motor. . .

Then for the op here in this thread, is not the same or similar possible ? Either regulate a 20 or 15hp drive down to run his 20hp motor at 5 to 10hp, or is it possible to use a 5 or 10hp drive to run his 20hp motor ?
 
To rabler and Bill H's last comments:

That's also part of my question, and something we began discussing with using an rpc and 3 phase drives.

If we can use a larger drive on a smaller motor, and regulate it, and add protections. . . With the result being let's say a 15 or 20hp drive running a 5hp motor. . .

Then for the op here in this thread, is not the same or similar possible ? Either regulate a 20 or 15hp drive down to run his 20hp motor at 5 to 10hp, or is it possible to use a 5 or 10hp drive to run his 20hp motor ?

Should be worth a try. Results may not be satisfactory, but unlikely to damage anything as long as an appropriate circuit breaker is in use. You’d need documentation on the drive to see if appropriate adjustments exist. For example the 10EE modular doesn’t have any factory documented adjustments that would allow that type of thing.

I’d want to know what shape the motor was in before going down this road.
 
Should be worth a try. Results may not be satisfactory, but unlikely to damage anything as long as an appropriate circuit breaker is in use. You’d need documentation on the drive to see if appropriate adjustments exist. For example the 10EE modular doesn’t have any factory documented adjustments that would allow that type of thing.

I’d want to know what shape the motor was in before going down this road.

That's what I'm thinking.

A 10ee is usually 3 and 5 hp. They do pretty well right ? Yeah this machine is bigger, but its still only what ? 16" actual swing ?

Surely it does not take 10 hp to spin the spindle and move apron up and down ways. If his shop's ceiling is 50amps, My knee jerk reaction is somehow, someway I could get 3 to 5hp at tool tip and be under that 50 amp ceiling. And if I can get 3 to 5 hp at tool tip, the actual machine performance would be pretty good.

Yea not 20hp good :D. But I'd take what I could get.
 
Obviously the motor no-load current sets a bottom end to how far you can push this. AC motors in particular tend to use reactive power running no load. Basically this means they are drawing power and then returning power to the grid during every half-cycle of 60Hz. This is the “power factor” Bill referred to earlier. So operating at 50% limited should be easy, 25% marginal. Measuring no load current gives you some look at the bottom end.
 
DC motors are "ultimately" the same animal as AC. Electromagnetic poles must attract ELSE nothing MOVES.
...

At 5% of nominal Voltage, an AC induction motor is still just sitting - humming and warming the mass of its ass.

A 20 HP DC motor at half rations doesn't know or care if the "half" is off a 20 HP drive intentionally demanding only half. Or off a 10 HP drive at full gallop.

No magic. It eats wotever is put onto its plate , s**ts motation, accordingly.



:)

Agreed.

But to answer texasgunsmith's question with a practical answer: The drive/controller adds another layer. At some point, whether DC motor and controller, or induction motor and VFD, you reach a bottom end where you're just out of the design range of the system. That figure may be significantly lower for a DC based system, but the controller may add some interesting switching artifacts and overhead that aren't going to play well if you try to try to feed it with a power line that has too small of an amperage rating. Engineered to deliver just a bit of voltage and current to the motor doesn't necessarily mean also engineered to work with an extremely out-of-range power line input. Monarch's own implementations are a clear example of that. 5 amps at single phase 230V should give you ballpark 1 1/2 horsepower, but getting a stock 10EE to work on a 5amp fuse would be challenging.

TLDR; The farther you try to derate the system the more challenging it's going to get to make it function, much less work effectively as a lathe.
 
You WILL get 10 to 12 HP.

50A split-phase CAN ran the existing DC motor @ 10 to 12 HP.

Without seeing his whole shop set up, I don't know an exact answer, but I was guessing he can't do a full 50a at the drive or motor.

Figuring shop lights, and other small loads like frig, air conditioner, etc that may be on and lowering that number from 50a.

Op also mentioned coolant pump, hydraulics and such too. Might require an additional rpc for that.

Just a guess, but I was thinking he probably has 30-35 amps he can devote to spindle drive. Might be able to push that number up, but I wouldn't know until I saw what else might be drawing, and what that amp number is.
 
After reading (and almost understanding) the whole thread, I'd look seriously at improving supply. All this repowering, just as a temporary fix?

Up the incoming amperage capability and the situation jumps ahead in time to something that's desired and gonna happen anyway. No repowering necessary and the goal of better supply has been achieved. An expensive step has been skipped, the OP has saved a bunch of time and maybe even ended up with a more salable machine.

What single phase amperage entrance is required to run the machine? 200A enough? Seems very doable. (Yeah, I know, easy enough for me to say :D.) What problems lie in the way of achieving it?
 
Honestly at this point I am just going to put the project on the back burner and restore a 10ee I have. I can see my self getting more space in the next year and the new shop will probably have more power! Thanks for all the suggestions and I will revisit this post when the time comes.
 








 
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