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    Default Monarch 10ee breakers size

    What is the correct two poles breaker size for a 1942 10ee with MG drive?

    The MG was modified from 3 phase 220 Volts to a single phase 220Volts

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    Quote Originally Posted by pier View Post
    What is the correct two poles breaker size for a 1942 10ee with MG drive?

    The MG was modified from 3 phase 220 Volts to a single phase 220Volts
    That was the Steelman-Haas re-termination + PF capacitors, then?

    If so, ISTR the final figures were covered in the PM threads with the rest of the info on those conversions. Three or more of them, and your very machine might be one of them?

    Or was this MG conversion done some other way?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pier View Post
    What is the correct two poles breaker size for a 1942 10ee with MG drive?

    The MG was modified from 3 phase 220 Volts to a single phase 220Volts
    Are you asking about the circuit breaker in the panel that supplies power to the machine, or something on the machine itself?

    Cal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    Are you asking about the circuit breaker in the panel that supplies power to the machine, or something on the machine itself?

    Cal
    I am asking about the breakers in the panel that supply power to the machine.
    The lathe itself does not have any breakers. My breakers seems to pop off once in a while even if the lathe is just siting there running but not doing any cutting.

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    What size are they now and what size wire are you using?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pier View Post
    I am asking about the breakers in the panel that supply power to the machine.
    The lathe itself does not have any breakers. My breakers seems to pop off once in a while even if the lathe is just siting there running but not doing any cutting.
    ...
    It is usually HELPFUL if you open by telling us what you have already in place, and what is going on as to why it even raised a question. We STILL do not have the wire or breaker size, nor what you meant by "converted to run on single-phase", either, do we?
    ...
    Last edited by Cal Haines; 11-08-2018 at 04:21 PM. Reason: off topic content removed

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    I have been using 30amp breaker for years without a problem with my mg powered ee.
    ...
    Last edited by Cal Haines; 11-09-2018 at 06:18 PM. Reason: off topic content removed

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    Quote Originally Posted by pier View Post
    I am asking about the breakers in the panel that supply power to the machine.
    The lathe itself does not have any breakers. My breakers seems to pop off once in a while even if the lathe is just siting there running but not doing any cutting.
    A 30A breaker works for me as well, but the machine should only draw large amounts of current when the MG is coming up to speed. If a breaker is tripping when the machine is idling, something else is going on.

    When you say that the machine was converted to single phase, what do you mean? How was that done? Pictures would be helpful.

    Cal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    A 30A breaker works for me as well, but the machine should only draw large amounts of current when the MG is coming up to speed. If a breaker is tripping when the machine is idling, something else is going on.

    When you say that the machine was converted to single phase, what do you mean? How was that done? Pictures would be helpful.

    Cal
    "As best I recall" the Steelman-Haas conversion does raise the MAXIMUM draw ever-so lightly, as it was mentioned as being able to provide MORE than 100% of OEM nameplate where conventional separate RPC can only get about 91 % of nameplate. More than good enough, either way, of course, just different.

    We don't yet know if that was the route followed in this 10EE, but most, maybe even ALL of those conversions are in PM's archives. Or were at the time they were done.

    There HAD been other threads where a Pilgrim was planning to remove the 3-Phase input drive motor to the main generator and put a single-phase motor into its place "mechanically".

    No reason that could not work. It just seemed like more work that it was worth, so I don't recall PM having after-the-fact sight of one that was actually so altered.

    IF.. that was done? I'd expect more starting inrush for a capacitor-start, capacitor-run single-phase motor, but even so, 30A should be plenty for 5 HP or so.

    The odd part, here, is what could be causing a breaker trip when the MG is basically running at "standby", no significant load-motor draw.

    Certain types of breaker, other players on the "in-house grid", such as an air-compressor cycling, the cause of that intermittency may be but a sideswipe - unrelated to the 10EE itself.

    Not that something as simple as old insulation and bare wires vibrating about can be ruled-out just yet, either, but those are inclined to make at lest a MINOR sound, light, or smell show..

    20CW

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    Ok, I only wanted to know what is the general size of the two pole breakers used in the electrical panel when the 10ee is powered by a single phase 220V and with the MG modified as per the "sticky" Thread "Single Phase Conversion" on this site, and which I followed step by step.

    Just to give you more details of my setup is as follows:
    1) The two poles breaker in my panel is a Square-D 30 Amps
    2) I have an extension cord (10 feet long) going from a 30 Amp plug directly to the lathe
    3) The extension cord wire size is 10 AWG
    4) modification of the MG uses the Start and Run capacitors and the SUPCO relay, just as described in the thread above "Single phase Conversion". This modification seems to work Ok so far. The only issues I had in the past was, that I measured very high voltages across both the Start capacitors and Run capacitors, but nothing ever blowed-up.

    10ee-p1.jpgmg-mod1.jpg

    I am attaching a couple of photos showing the re-conditioned lathe and the panel showing the MG electrical modification.

    Also, I want to mention that all bearings were replaced and every moving parts in the MG and DC motor was inspected for wear and tare, and there is nothing creating high friction.

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    I have to say that was a pretty clean job of installing that conversion.
    My move would be perhaps to remove it, and use a rotary converter.

    The paint job, thats unique!

    Looking at the machine over all, it looks pretty good!
    Good examples of machines that have been beat to hell, were sold off at Hanford and Boeing some years ago, the info plates at control and gear box locations get beat up so bad, its hard to read them.

    I remember when this was brought up over 10yrs ago, I found it interesting at the time, but wanted to be able to use 3phase when available. I remember a couple of people did it, but not anything else until now. I dont know if anyone is still around or alive that did this.

    Great photos, but, they may bother one sensitive person! The lathe is too nice, so look out!

    Thought about it some more, I think I like the paint.

    I have had big capacitors explode in static phase converters, they put them in a box for a reason, I would for sure wear a face shield working around them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pier View Post
    Ok, I only wanted to know what is the general size of the two pole breakers used in the electrical panel when the 10ee is powered by a single phase 220V and with the MG modified as per the "sticky" Thread "Single Phase Conversion" on this site, and which I followed step by step.

    Just to give you more details of my setup is as follows:
    1) The two poles breaker in my panel is a Square-D 30 Amps
    2) I have an extension cord (10 feet long) going from a 30 Amp plug directly to the lathe
    3) The extension cord wire size is 10 AWG
    4) modification of the MG uses the Start and Run capacitors and the SUPCO relay, just as described in the thread above "Single phase Conversion".
    I'll hope for "QO" family breakers AND NOT "Homeline", but even so, they work, too.

    Otherwise, that is about as righteous a package as such things get, end to end. Some among us would have added a rotary disconnect with a lockout tab right on the lathe, probably TS end, operator side and easy reach, under the catch-pan casting lip.

    But that's optional.
    This modification seems to work Ok so far. The only issues I had in the past was, that I measured very high voltages across both the Start capacitors and Run capacitors, but nothing ever blowed-up.
    This should not be. The caps are in a "working" load status, even when the MG is at unloaded idle. Brush noise off main and exciter generator is de minimus, does not ordinarily generate enough commutation noise to matter.

    The caps are in a sine-wave environment, as well as running under a steady, if minimal operating load. No charge can just "accumulate", there has to be a source for those over-expectation voltages.

    You have not mentioned anything about a possible VFD or DC drive of the tribe that generates fast-rising switching artifacts, but this is what I would be looking for.

    It need not even be in your own shop space. Any facility sharing your shop's side of the powerco transformer may include one or more neighbours, with some device or another that is putting fast-rise spike or switching artifacts onto that "local grid'.

    Could be a dodgy VFD, a DC drive, a welder, even a dodgy heater thermostat.
    Air compressor with marginal electricals is another suspect. Kitchen and laundry appliances have "grown" VFD as well.

    All such a source has to do is be enough out of the ordinary to trip a Square-D "QO". They genuinely CAN be "Quick Open", sometimes sort of "goosey" or even paranoid!

    If the list of possible contributors rings no obvious bells you do not have?

    I'd next want to get an oscilloscope onto the system, put it into "roll" mode so as to be holding a record of the voltages right at the moment of the trip.

    ..And then.. go and then see what could be done to ENCOURAGE a breaker-trip so one need not camp-out waiting on it

    ...
    Last edited by Cal Haines; 11-09-2018 at 06:40 PM. Reason: off topic comments removed

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    Quote Originally Posted by pier View Post
    Ok, I only wanted to know what is the general size of the two pole breakers used in the electrical panel when the 10ee is powered by a single phase 220V and with the MG modified as per the "sticky" Thread "Single Phase Conversion" on this site, and which I followed step by step.

    Just to give you more details of my setup is as follows:
    1) The two poles breaker in my panel is a Square-D 30 Amps
    2) I have an extension cord (10 feet long) going from a 30 Amp plug directly to the lathe
    3) The extension cord wire size is 10 AWG
    4) modification of the MG uses the Start and Run capacitors and the SUPCO relay, just as described in the thread above "Single phase Conversion". This modification seems to work Ok so far. The only issues I had in the past was, that I measured very high voltages across both the Start capacitors and Run capacitors, but nothing ever blowed-up.

    10ee-p1.jpgmg-mod1.jpg

    I am attaching a couple of photos showing the re-conditioned lathe and the panel showing the MG electrical modification.

    Also, I want to mention that all bearings were replaced and every moving parts in the MG and DC motor was inspected for wear and tare, and there is nothing creating high friction.
    Here are some thing to check You need to check the amps that the MG is drawing when running also the voltage to, as a low voltage will cause it to draw too much amps and trip the breaker. You also need to check the connections at the breaker to make sure they are tight and any connections in between.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    All good advice, in general, but since Pier loaded-up the full info set, I'm one taking it as a given he has already done these things - and more.

    It's that unpredictable, intermittent trip-out that is the mystery to be tracked-down and "addressed" in some manner that improves the situation.

    That he has reported it only when in standby/idle, AND NOT when under load, in the cut, hints that it is of fairly low-level at-source, as even if arriving only episodically, it is "pushed own into the noise" when the MG is hauling even a modest load. So long as there IS a load, not just standby, it has not been reported as arising as a trip-out, EVEN though - the breakers are already carrying a higher load to support the load in the cut, hence have lesser reserve to use-up to reach the zone for tripping the breaker.

    BTW - hope and TRUST that there are NO "GFCI" nor newer combined-fault cousins in this chain.

    They can "be there", but they need more careful selection than ordinary residential dwelling service requires.

    Absent that extra vulnerability to faux trip, this is where the 'scope could reveal the waveform, and spot the characteristic of DC Drives, VFD, or nasty switching compressor contactors. That could rapidly narrow-down where one has to go search for the truant device.

    Hopefully, all that really needs is to go across the room and de-power some other device already ID'ed as a possible suspect, then see if the problem has just then gone away. No 'scope required!

    Mind, mention of even using classical test equipment will also draw another round of hobby project photo attention-bid, but there's no great harm in that.

    Our man in Walla Walla is at least rather good with a camera!

    Yep But did he pull the breaker and check the connection to the buss bars?

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    donie, thermite, PLEASE lay off the bickering! You're not helping the community with this stuff.

    I went through the thread and deleted the off topic comments directed at each other. I saved what I could of donie's shop photos to Shop Tips and Project Photos

    I don't have time to sift through your posts and try to save the things that actually apply to the topic at hand, so when I see you guys going at it, I'm just going to delete the posts.

    Cal

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    That is a good start, my only interest in this situation would be for it to be a sharing of information forum, as it was at one time. It has unfortunately become a forum of one dictator.
    Early on here, there was very little information on these machines anywhere, or the drives, as more of the machines were released to the public, the mystery's of the drives through the years were solved.
    Unfortunately, the forum has devolved to mostly very old machines, I doubt one person in particular can contain his jealousy to allow anything else but the old old stuff.

    I need to ad, a deplorable non union individual such as myself, or anyone else can not start a thread here without it quickly being polluted to a point of WHY BOTHER.

    Anyway, the only advice I can give to the OP is toss the gizmo.

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    Pier
    If you have a laser temperature gauge you can use it to check for hot spots or bad connections.

    Hal

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    Quote Originally Posted by pier View Post

    Just to give you more details of my setup is as follows:
    1) The two poles breaker in my panel is a Square-D 30 Amps
    2) I have an extension cord (10 feet long) going from a 30 Amp plug directly to the lathe
    3) The extension cord wire size is 10 AWG
    Be careful with that 10ga extension cord - if it's one of the highly flexible cords with an SJOOW spec it might not be rated above 15-20A.

    And it's likely the surge current starting that motor popping the breaker. I had a nice little setup to drive a compressor that doesn't draw 22 amps max when running but was delighted to pop a 30A breaker ever time on start. I had to repull 90' of wire and go to a 40A breaker to make it happy.

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    Russ,

    I don't think it's a current inrush issue. He said it happens at idle:

    Quote Originally Posted by pier View Post
    ... My breakers seems to pop off once in a while even if the lathe is just siting there running but not doing any cutting.
    Cal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    Russ,

    I don't think it's a current inrush issue. He said it happens at idle:



    Cal
    Huh. I think I'd put a meter on that puppy, see if the current is surging to the 30A periodically as that can add up in the breaker. It might be just a bad breaker, even. Cheap enough to replace as a test.

    I'd still be concerned about the extension cord - 10ga solid is good for the current (and more) but the more you divide the wire the lower the max sustained current gets. A nice floppy core in an OOW case might have a quarter of the spec of the same in a stiff solid wire.


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