Monarch 10EE chuck removal

I just took delivery last week of a Nov-1944 Monarch 10EE
It is still in the bottom part of the crate. I took off the tailstock and am trying to get the chuck removed. It only came with the key to move the jaws.
I am fairly certain the three square head opening bolts must be removed for the chuck to come off (see picture). Does anyone know what size they are? They appear to be 5/16 since I have a 1/4 and 3/8 lathe key and neither fit.

They do not come out you only have to turn them 1/4 turn to remove the chuck you can measure them to see what size they are.

Greetings,
I don't have a whole lot of time to reply, I'm just in the office checking something. (besides PM. God knows why I'm reading it now...)
Yes, you're right, those are the unlock keys for the chuck but they are NOT screws.
The chuck is held on with a D style camlock, so those are cams, *NOT* screws. They won't unscrew, don't try to force them. (It's a D1-3, IIRC)
My key is .308 square. I imagine .312 would work, but mine is .308, just FYI.
To use them, you crank about half a turn clockwise to unlock the cam. Do all three, and that should break the chuck loose. Put a piece of wood across the bed to protect it just in case the chuck decides to fall off. Build a chuck cradle once you have time.

There's an arrow marked on the spindle collar around each of those cam points. I think that way equals loose. Once you can feel them flopping around loose, you're good. You may need to use a mallet, or a wedge to unseat the chuck off the taper it's seated on, so be gentle. Do *NOT* hit it with a steel hammer, and don't hit it hard no matter what. If it needs serious thwacking, you're probably doing something wrong. Ask back here for help.
To tighten, go the other way until you can't. (Mine has the collet nose mounted, or I'd check on the direction for the cams. I just do it by muscle memory at this point, haven't looked at the arrows in years. It's just "that" direction as far as I'm concerned when mounting the chuck.)
(My memory is clockwise for loose, anticlockwise for tight.)

Just be very careful when dealing with the chucks: if you didn't recognize the cam sockets, that means you don't know all the deep voodoo of the D1 camlock spindles, which means one of the more regular 10EE people really needs to chime in here with more explanations. Big point: if you don't lock them down right, the chuck can come off in use. Which is bad. Blood and death kind of bad. Another big point: if the chuck gets stuck "on", you will be tempted to beat the crap out of the back of the chuck to knock it off. Do this wrong, and you can trash your headstock bearings. This is several thousand dollars of bad. So be *VERY* careful with this area of the machine until you know it more thoroughly.

It's not that hard really, you just need to sit down and learn the way of the camlock, and then you'll be fine. It's only a problem for people who don't know what they're dealing with.

Guys, can somebody please induct him into the mysteries of the camlock?

Regards,
Brian

The D1-3 square key is nominally 5/16" (0.3125") across the flats. McMaster-Carr, among others, has them: McMaster-Carr item 3204A59

You can make up a poor man's key by grinding down the end of a 3/8" extension bar.

If you look carefully, you should see a tick mark on each of the cam, next to one of the flats. Rotate the cam until the tick mark is pointing towards the tailstock and the cam is unlocked.

Cal

Cal Haines said:

If you look carefully, you should see a tick mark on each of the cam, next to one of the flats. Rotate the cam until the tick mark is pointing towards the tailstock and the cam is unlocked.

Cal

Click to expand...

On mine, unlocked is when the tick mark points circumferentially, i.e., at 12:00. Properly locked is when the tick is between 3:00 and 6:00. Macit sells the cams and pins, and are well worth it if yours are antiques.

this helps illustrate what everyone is saying

rklopp said:

Macit[/URL] sells the cams and pins, and are well worth it if yours are antiques.

Click to expand...

Any idea what size Macit? I did order a 5/16 tool to unlock the cams, I didn't want to grind down my 3/8 key

dinotom said:

Any idea what size Macit? I did order a 5/16 tool to unlock the cams, I didn't want to grind down my 3/8 key

Click to expand...

The cams that live in the spindle AND the notch shape and body diameter of the pins are "unisex" - US or Metric are the same size.

The size goes by the D1(X) "X" number - all you need to order the correct new ones is to know they are size 3 for the "D1-3" in the 10EE case.

The pins DO have different threads at the attach-end, as do their rotation-limiting anchor capscrews, US or Metric. One needs to pay attention to the backplate or "integral" nose-art so as to get the proper ones.

Mac-it make and sell only the US-threaded pins or "cam stud" - as far as I know.

MacIt - Catalog

Shars sell (Chinese-made) metric pins if you need those. HOPEFULLY, there is at least one European firm making better Metric ones, as the Shars ones "work OK", but are nowhere near as nicely made as US ones.

rklopp said:

Cal Haines said:

...
If you look carefully, you should see a tick mark on each of the cam, next to one of the flats. Rotate the cam until the tick mark is pointing towards the tailstock and the cam is unlocked.

Click to expand...

On mine, unlocked is when the tick mark points circumferentially, i.e., at 12:00. Properly locked is when the tick is between 3:00 and 6:00. Macit sells the cams and pins, and are well worth it if yours are antiques.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the correction. I should know better than to rely on my memory for that sort of thing.

Cal

Well, here is where all three of the tick marks come to rest when locked on mine.

Nope, point them to 12 O'Clock, check the diagram and do buy new parts as needed from macit or I may have some surplus for you. Regardless get the marks heading north and maybe bump the Chuck or faceplate

I machined the handle end of my chuck wrench into the appropriate 5/16" square drive, so I can use it to tighten/loosen the three cam locks on my 10EE spindle. It was mild steel so I hardened it afterwards with Cherry Red Surface Hardening Compound.

Getting double duty from the chuck wrench means one less thing to clutter the workspace. The leverage I get from it is helpful too, now that I'm old and feeble.

I, by no means meant to hijack this thread from Jimbojet but it's all the same topic. @Jimbojet where exactly do your ticks line up at when the chuck is locked in. My spindle doesn't have the same markings as posted by @rakorts illustration. It's been that way since I got it, changed chucks, nothing has been stuck, and nothing has let loose either. I tried to look up adjustments of the camlock system and didn't find to much info, even on this site. I will check into it more when I get a part finished that is in the 3 jaw now. I have a 5c collet chuck and a Sjogren 2j which I never paid attention to how the D1-3 ticks line up. Is any of this in the manual?

thermite said:

Rakort's post (#8) not only illustrates it - it SAYS to turn the cam stud in or out one-turn until they come good.

CAVEAT: When installing new ones from scratch, you probably won't even be CLOSE, first go or three!

Just leave the anchor capscrews out altogether and line the studs up by eye - they have to be "close" to the right orientation on-axis, but "close" is OK. WHEN you get down to the right range. then install the limit / anchor capscrews. They play no part in pull-in nor retention force.

Their purpose - note the slot - is to preserve the general range of the setting, but still allow the studs to rotate to match the cam action. The studs DO have to rotate a tad as the two camming surfaces (the angled cut in the stud, and its mate in the spindle cam) do their job.

This could not work if they were welded or pressed in, rigidly.

Click to expand...

Thanks thermite, I'll be checking it out soon...... Let ya know the outcome. Wonder how those got messed up in the first place.

Zap921 said:

I, by no means meant to hijack this thread from Jimbojet but it's all the same topic. @Jimbojet where exactly do your ticks line up at when the chuck is locked in?

Click to expand...

My notches fall between 3 o'clock and 6 o'clock when the chuck is locked. This is somewhat controllable by you; removing the small set screw that prevents the cam lock pin from rotating lets you screw the pin into or out of the backing plate. If you have to tighten a camlock pin past 6 o'clock to lock it, it is sticking out too far from the backing plate -- screw it into the plate one turn and try again. If you cannot get to at least 3 o'clock when locked then it doesn't stick out enough, so screw it out of the plate. This adjustment isn't that fine, it comes in integer numbers of rotations (you want to reinsert the set screw when you're done of course), and as a result you may have to accept a 3 o'clock or 6 o'clock result.

Update:
Got all four chucks clocked correctly thanks to this thread. I'm really glad I stick around here and read........Thanks guys!