Monarch 10ee Collet Closer Bracket?
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  1. #1
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    Default Monarch 10ee Collet Closer Bracket?

    I’ve had several 10ee’s and never noticed that not all lathes are machined for the collet closer bracket!

    I have a closer and want to mount it to my lathe, there is a flat pad on the back of the headstock, but no tapped holes?

    My question, has anyone tapped these holes in the headstock, where did you find the dimensions for the hole pattern or did you just mount the closer bracket and transfer the holes?

    Any help is appreciated!

    Kevin

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    i use a transfer punch. hold the bracket in place and mark the holes

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    I did the same thing years ago. Monarch sent me the drawing that has some notes on mounting. It didn't have actual hole locations, just a general description. I'll try to dig up the drawing.

    Something to note-- you cannot switch out metric change gears with the closer bracket installed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sneebot View Post
    Something to note-- you cannot switch out metric change gears with the closer bracket installed.
    Yes, and isn't that irritating.? My 1977 10EE came to me with the hand lever collet closer (and bracket) but not the 5C spindle nose piece. If I'd known it was going to play out this way I would have put the money I spent for the spindle nose piece toward a Sjogren type collet chuck. Ultimately made a hand wheel draw bar and realized that for my purposes that was more appropriate anyway.

    David

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    Quote Originally Posted by old_dave View Post
    Yes, and isn't that irritating.? My 1977 10EE came to me with the hand lever collet closer (and bracket) but not the 5C spindle nose piece. If I'd known it was going to play out this way I would have put the money I spent for the spindle nose piece toward a Sjogren type collet chuck. Ultimately made a hand wheel draw bar and realized that for my purposes that was more appropriate anyway.

    David
    Yep, completely silly.
    I'm not a big fan of the design of the Monarch Lever assembly overall, but overlooking access to the end gearing seems to add insult to injury. Like you I've moved to using a Sjogren.

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    It's been awhile but I think some of the holes go into the inside of the headstock. If you drill and tap you'll need to catch any metal chips.

    Hal

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    Thanks everyone for the replies!

    I have a 2J collet adapter for the Monarch closer setup made by Rivett, it's the main reason for wanting to mount the lever collet closer!

    Kevin
    Last edited by bsg; 10-21-2020 at 05:48 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sneebot View Post
    Something to note-- you cannot switch out metric change gears with the closer bracket installed.
    FInd this kind of annoying also!

    That said, seems like certain factory accessories (rear lever collet closer, cross slide and saddle stops, rear mounted tool block, among others) were designed with production in mind. Have seen several 10EEs that looked like they were configured to make a certain part only. In that context, the hassle changing threading gears seems understandable and perhaps even forgivable.

    Monarch did offer a few different style collet closers that are easier to re-configure, like the hand operated drawtube and the key closer front nose piece and the Sjogren handwheel closer.
    Last edited by Colt45; 10-21-2020 at 01:38 PM.

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    The 10EE in the physics department machine shop on the UC Berkeley campus has a hand lever collet closer. Its anchoring thingy folds out of the way when the collet closer is removed rather than being that rigid curved arm that gets in our way. Looking at an old Royal catalogue, maybe it's one of theirs.

    A similar irritation: My 10EE has the ELSR. As far as I can tell you can't remove the bottom casting on the apron to maintain the oil pump filter without partially removing the ELSR rod...

    David

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    Quote Originally Posted by bsg View Post
    Thanks everyone for the replies!

    I have a 2J collet adapter for the Monarch closer setup made by Rivett, it's the main reason for wanting to mount the lever collet closer!

    Kevin
    I have a Hardinge 'loop' 2J closer on D1-3 and had TWO Sjogren on D1-3. Traded one Sjogren for an upper HS casting.

    Gave away a Royal 5C lever I had thought to rebuild.

    It isn't "just" the nuisance. I wanted the spindle bore clear.

    Downside is that only the Hardinge "loop' is as fast as a rear-lever closer, cycle-time-wise, and it takes up more 'daylight" on an already short lathe.

    Sjogrens are SLOW by comparison to either.

    I'm good with that. Both.

    Others might need the space and or the faster cycle time.

    Sjogrens are at least a decent compromise. as they don't need a lot of long-axis space, and do not require an anchor of any sort at all.

    Back to YOUR need:

    It isn't rocket science to arrange a frame or plate for the lever's anchor point itself attached lower down on the base casting.

    That can be "injun-eared" to be a fast "lift off" if you clever it up right.

    No holes in the upper casting required. Whole rig asided rapidly.

    Does have to be stout.

    Does not have to be too heavy to lift.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    I have a Hardinge 'loop' 2J closer on D1-3 and had TWO Sjogren on D1-3. Traded one Sjogren for an upper HS casting.

    Gave away a Royal 5C lever I had thought to rebuild.

    It isn't "just" the nuisance. I wanted the spindle bore clear.

    Downside is that only the Hardinge "loop' is as fast as a rear-lever closer, cycle-time-wise, and it takes up more 'daylight" on an already short lathe.

    Sjogrens are SLOW by comparison to either.

    I'm good with that. Both.

    Others might need the space and or the faster cycle time.

    Sjogrens are at least a decent compromise. as they don't need a lot of long-axis space, and do not require an anchor of any sort at all.

    Back to YOUR need:

    It isn't rocket science to arrange a frame or plate for the lever's anchor point itself attached lower down on the base casting.

    That can be "injun-eared" to be a fast "lift off" if you clever it up right.

    No holes in the upper casting required. Whole rig asided rapidly.

    Does have to be stout.

    Does not have to be too heavy to lift.
    I'm only looking for info on machining the headstock for the factory closer, please stay on point Bill!

    Bill, I don't need education on collet closer options, have several different options at my disposal! The front mount handwheel are my least favorite and the hardest to operate while doing multiple parts versus the lever closer.....

    Because of the other replies about the limitation on changing gears with the lever bracket in place, I will probably just come up with either a swing out version or quick release.....will update after completion!

    I still need a set of metric gears for a square dial machine?

    Kevin

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    Quote Originally Posted by bsg View Post
    I'm only looking for info on machining the headstock for the factory closer, please stay on point Bill!
    "On point" is it's kinda dumb to copy an implementation that you know in advance WILL interfere with Metric tranposing/change gears AND have plans to actually use such.

    I have no such need. Nose-art entirely aside, another lathe is inherently inch/metric.

    The closer's over-center pivot anchor doesn't CARE if the anchor is drilled and tapped into the casting or into a rigid frame or adaptor that does NOT interfere with said change out.

    Agree the nose loop is a heavier-handed animal to operate and about double the mass or more even to swap. They aren't scarce only because they cost more at new prices.

    Heavy Burnerd Multi-size is even worse.

    But damn those puppies sure do hold nicely!


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    The rear mount lever collet closers were not the first design Monarch came up with. My 59 WIAD lathe has the original design, which mounts the lever on the top headstock casting. That design was also used on round dials. It requires the two piece upper headstock casting. I think all 10EE’s have the bolt holes for the upper headstock casting so they can be retrofitted. I have seen earlier WIAD machines with the rear lever mount, so I assume Monarch made both for some number of years. I do not know if the spindle attachments and draw tube are identical between the two systems, perhaps someone has worked on both and can comment. If they are the same, it would allow you to get rid of the rear mount by buying the two piece upper headstock cover. There is one piece on ebay currently.

    Also, regarding the Sjogren chuck’s cycle time for doing repetitive work. Sjogren made a spindle mounted 2J chuck that was lever-operated. The lever mount used a bed bracket like the spindle guard uses. I used to have one, but found it to be in the way. I use a Sjogren hand wheel chuck for work and I like it, for the extra collet capacity compared to 5C and the speed and ease of changing collets (compared to a lever-operated drawbar).

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    Quote Originally Posted by rimcanyon View Post
    Also, regarding the Sjogren chuck’s cycle time for doing repetitive work. Sjogren made a spindle mounted 2J chuck that was lever-operated. The lever mount used a bed bracket like the spindle guard uses. I used to have one, but found it to be in the way.
    2ALD13 - the one I referred to earlier as a Hardinge "loop" closer for the running bearing and yoke it needs so the operating lever doesn't have to go round-and round like a flail!



    Thot my one was OLD as "Hardinge Brothers" is deeply engraved but.,, just now went with a strong light and read the fainter worn markings opposite.

    Sure enuf their "Sjogren" divisions markings are there as well. So "same critter", and yes it is a bulky bastid, hungry of daylight, and heavy to swap.

    Even the Multisize is a skosh leaner. Great grip. Rubberflex done right, even on rough HRS.

    But neither are wanted if one were working plastics! Back to 2J or ER.

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    Quote Originally Posted by old_dave View Post
    The 10EE in the physics department machine shop on the UC Berkeley campus has a hand lever collet closer. Its anchoring thingy folds out of the way when the collet closer is removed rather than being that rigid curved arm that gets in our way. Looking at an old Royal catalogue, maybe it's one of theirs.

    A similar irritation: My 10EE has the ELSR. As far as I can tell you can't remove the bottom casting on the apron to maintain the oil pump filter without partially removing the ELSR rod...

    David
    Just found that out! And believe me, I tried removing the sump without moving the ELSR rod...

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheOldCar View Post
    Just found that out! And believe me, I tried removing the sump without moving the ELSR rod...
    And like me I expect you really really tried because you couldn't believe that Monarch would do it that way.

    David

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    Quote Originally Posted by old_dave View Post
    And like me I expect you really really tried because you couldn't believe that Monarch would do it that way.

    David
    Can the shaft be removed without getting into the gear change end? A pin maybe?
    I see the tail end box and a gearbox on the bottom of the apron has to come off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mllud22 View Post
    Can the shaft be removed without getting into the gear change end? A pin maybe?
    I see the tail end box and a gearbox on the bottom of the apron has to come off.
    At the headstock end the ELSR shaft isn't secured with a pin or anything, it's free to rotate in a bushing. At the tailstock end as it goes in to the ELSR housing (my terminology) it's secured to a collar with a taper or spring pin. If the pin is removed and the cover on the outboard (tailstock) side of the ELSR housing is removed (four socket head cap screws) it should be possible to push the ELSR rod out far enough (unless there's not enough clear space at that end of the lathe) for the sump casting on the apron to come off. I move the rod just enough to get the sump casting off leaving the last roughly 4 1/2 inches in that casting on the bottom of the apron where the prongs that trip the dogs on the ELSR live along with other bits. I want to avoid risking having the key come out and maybe dealing with some gears getting out of time. If anyone has an easier way to deal with this I'd be happy to hear it.

    Since my 10EE is used in a home shop setting I rationalize not changing the filter so often.

    David
    Last edited by old_dave; 10-29-2020 at 04:21 PM. Reason: Trying to clarify

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    Just took the end cover off my ELSR housing. There's a 1 1/4 inch O.D. cover secured with three flat head screws that has to come off in order for the ELSR rod to come out. I'm sure you would have figured that out. (Don't seem to be able to add a smiley)

    My 10EE was built in 1977.

    Thank you for the "Like".

    David

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    Quote Originally Posted by old_dave View Post
    Just took the end cover off my ELSR housing. There's a 1 1/4 inch O.D. cover secured with three flat head screws that has to come off in order for the ELSR rod to come out. I'm sure you would have figured that out. (Don't seem to be able to add a smiley)

    My 10EE was built in 1977.

    Thank you for the "Like".

    David
    If you want to add a smiley, click on go advanced. Then you will have lots of them...


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