Monarch 10EE dc contactor coils
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    Default Monarch 10EE dc contactor coils

    New to this forum so I most likely in the wrong place but I am looking for a 230 volt dc coil for my 1941 10EE.Anyone Know of a replacment or have a good used one?I am guessing the 230 volt were a short production as I have seen a lot of 125 volt machines.

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    I need one of these as well. Maybe Bill (user name 9100) can make a production run of 4 of these for us?

    My plan B is to take a 125 VDC coil and put a resistor in series with it to reduce the voltage being supplied to it.

    I'm gonna go ahead and guess that you are not going to find one. I've tried and failed. One user here thought he had one, but in the end never located it.

    Brian

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    Quote Originally Posted by rakort View Post
    I need one of these as well. Maybe Bill (user name 9100) can make a production run of 4 of these for us?

    My plan B is to take a 125 VDC coil and put a resistor in series with it to reduce the voltage being supplied to it.

    I'm gonna go ahead and guess that you are not going to find one. I've tried and failed. One user here thought he had one, but in the end never located it.

    Brian
    "Some" perhaps most, were associated with early-days "inline" exciter 10EE and 3 HP large-frame motors with 230 VDC Field coils..

    One possible solution is to source any coil that fits and has the pull-in power, then provide for its control and actuation power separately from the rest of the goods as use that 230 VDC. Motor is hard to swap. All-else not so much.

    IOW not only could the later, more common 115 VDC nominal coils work, so too, could 24 Volt ones be arranged to work, even if another "pilot" relay and control transformer had to be added.

    The nut to crack is finding any coils AT ALL that fit. The rest is tedious, but at least CHEAP.

    PS: You do not REALLY want a series resistor. Those are current-limiters, and it is Ampere-turns that do the work, so halving the voltage is halving the pull-in power even a half-Voltage coil needs to function expecting a higher Ampere draw for given force. The raw supply doesn't have so much reserve as to piss away half the budget heating a resistor to no avail, either.

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    Thanks for the reply on this.What about using a 220 volt ac coil and using 2 leads from the ac motor with separate wiring and switch just to operate the coil?

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    It was myself who had the 240v coil in my 115v machine. I had to wind a replacement coil and removed the 240v one to save for anyone who might need it. Kept it for 5 years and yet when the time came that it could be of some use it was nowhere to be found. I keep a very organised workshop so it's likely it got inadvertently tossed in a clear-out.

    Matchless I think your easiest way out is to wind a new coil. It's easy to do and there is a guide to follow (that I used myself). I'll see if I can dig it out.

    EDIT: Here is the thread I got my info from. You only need to figure out the wire gauge and turns for making a 230v coil as the physical dimensions are the same. I would suggest asking 10k but it seems he has not posted in 4 years:

    DC Contactor Coil Winding

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    Quote Originally Posted by matchless View Post
    Thanks for the reply on this.What about using a 220 volt ac coil and using 2 leads from the ac motor with separate wiring and switch just to operate the coil?
    Can't see that it would give a damn WHERE the - I'd guess 200-to 260 as probable safe working range - actually comes from, BUT.. Mind that while switch contacts live longer on AC, not all contactor nor relay coils are equally happy on AC as DC. Packaged FWB rectifiers are still only 3 bucks or so, though.

    Should fuse that supply line, of course. I even have one-hole aircraft/marine mini-breakers no bigger than a common panel fuse mount, but it shouldn't ever trip.

    Just a cut wire, shorted, and turned into an igniter you'd be protecting against, mostly.

    "inline" fuseholder, auto parts store is NOT a good idea. Most are not rated for any serious Voltage.

    One-hole panel mount holders can be OK. Block mount spring clips are gnarly as they really should have a covered space to live in - ELSE a cover of their own, but otherwise agnostic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post

    "Some" perhaps most, were associated with early-days "inline" exciter 10EE and 3 HP large-frame motors with 230 VDC Field coils..

    One possible solution is to source any coil that fits and has the pull-in power, then provide for its control and actuation power separately from the rest of the goods as use that 230 VDC. Motor is hard to swap. All-else not so much.

    IOW not only could the later, more common 115 VDC nominal coils work, so too, could 24 Volt ones be arranged to work, even if another "pilot" relay and control transformer had to be added.

    The nut to crack is finding any coils AT ALL that fit. The rest is tedious, but at least CHEAP.

    PS: You do not REALLY want a series resistor. Those are current-limiters, and it is Ampere-turns that do the work, so halving the voltage is halving the pull-in power even a half-Voltage coil needs to function expecting a higher Ampere draw for given force. The raw supply doesn't have so much reserve as to piss away half the budget heating a resistor to no avail, either.

    Can't see that it would give a damn WHERE the - I'd guess 200-to 260 as probable safe working range - actually comes from, BUT.. Mind that while switch contacts live longer on AC, not all contactor nor relay coils are equally happy on AC as DC. Packaged FWB rectifiers are still only 3 bucks or so, though.

    Should fuse that supply line, of course. I even have one-hole aircraft/marine mini-breakers no bigger than a common panel fuse mount, but it shouldn't ever trip.

    Just a cut wire, shorted, and turned into an igniter you'd be protecting against, mostly.

    "inline" fuseholder, auto parts store is NOT a good idea. Most are not rated for any serious Voltage.

    One-hole panel mount holders can be OK. Block mount spring clips are gnarly as they really should have a covered space to live in - ELSE a cover of their own, but otherwise agnostic.


    I'm searching for something useful in this rambling and am struggling. There was one fact that noted that the 230 VDC came from the low production inline DC exciter MG sets ... other than that?

    So this new poster with a total of 2 posts is gonna re-engineer this ancient 230 VDC control circuitry and retrofit it with modern relays, AC contactors, circuit breakers, fuses, retro fitted coils....WHAT!?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rakort View Post
    I'm searching for something useful in this rambling and am struggling. There was one fact that noted that the 230 VDC came from the low production inline DC exciter MG sets ... other than that?

    So this new poster with a total of 2 posts is gonna re-engineer this ancient 230 VDC control circuitry and retrofit it with modern relays, AC contactors, circuit breakers, fuses, retro fitted coils....WHAT!?
    Why on Earth would you want to encourage him to go any further down that road than he already has?

    He's already into issues from that, and would be better-off if he could reverse OUT and go back to OEM.

    I just explained there is a LOT going on that would have to be re-done, so it is best left alone if one CAN do.

    Not that it is at all germane to HIS challenge, but not needing ANY of the DC Panel is one of the side benefits of Solid State "4Q" conversions.

    Downside is that it is one of the most expensive of conversions, too,

    Most 10EE, the least-cost route, time as well as money, is to "restore what yah got", and "run what yah got".

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Why on Earth would you want to encourage him to go any further down that road than he already has?

    Most 10EE, the least-cost route, time as well as money, is to "restore what yah got", and "run what yah got".
    What road has he gone down? All we know is he has ONE bad F/W contactor coil!

    I with ya, find a sensible way to restore that one coil...period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rakort View Post
    What road has he gone down? All we know is he has ONE bad F/W contactor coil!

    I with ya, find a sensible way to restore that one coil...period.
    Yah but.. in another post, not for the first time, I have suggested that WHILE we still have enough Old Timers who know HOW, we make a project of vetting modifications to present-day relays and contactors so usable subtitutes are in a sticky, known to work and in advance of need.

    ALL the old "Hardware" has gone too scarce by this late date. The "wetware" as can wind coils with proper equipment, not by-hand, ain't getting much younger, either.

    Every bit of it HAS a modern counterpart, directly usable for many, minor modifications for others.

    And solid-state relays with adjustable trip points are probably NOT a good idea.
    That is because of the spikes those big-old Dee CEE motors can generate.

    If we wait too long, the experience pool will have vanished from Old Age.

    I think the FIRST time I biased a commodity relay - P&B KA11DY, was it? - was around 1960. The LAST time wasn't but a few years later. RTL, DTL, DCL. TTL, and CMOS - plus Crydom SSR's - had pushed them OUT of my industry (telephone, TTY, office machine automation & 'puters..) near-as-dammit altogether.

    Several of us here were among the perperators of trying to eliminate gross-motion relays. Arthur C. Clarke has proposed a rule in "Diaspar" // "The City and the Stars", and we had jumped on it as a grand idea to eliminate wear and extend longevity:

    "No machine may have any moving parts"

    Must have taken it as religion?

    True of my Old Iron, most days as well.

    Designed that way a-purpose or simply old age and neglect, unmoving it sits!



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    Winding a replacement will be no more difficult than putting a mic on the conductor of the other coil to discover it's diameter then making a delrin bobbin and winding on the wire until it's filled a similar amount. You might be a few hundred turns out but so what? All you're doing is making a pull-in coil. My machine was working with a coil of double the resistance after all, just that the pull-in was too weak to make a good clean contact.

    Other than that member 9100 here winds coils. You might apply to him to make a replacement.

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    Thanks to all the input on this subject so I guess my best option is to wind a new coil or have one made.I have very little electrical background and the electrics on this machine are a nightmare but I think I can wind a coil.

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    Winding a replacement coil is not rocket science here.
    So is making a replacement for the inline exciter when that is needed.
    I started a thread covering my replacement, because I couldn't get a brush back in the exciter.

    Using a low voltage coil (easy to source) with an inline resistor may be the EZ way forward.

    It's the little things that getcha, and usually there are good alternatives for replacing unubtanium parts, including a wife.
    I know because I have spent the last 50 years doing just that,
    buying (or obtaining) something I can make work to get that "antique" machine back in production.
    So what if it ain't OEM, it's working, and that is the important thing.

    The pontificating Bill (thermite / monarchist) can find a hundred reasons why it (fill in the blank) won't work.

    Get-R running and go make chips!

    The other Bill.

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    I hate to get back on this topic but I have a Struthers-Dunn 240 volt ac coil that will fit my contactor.I did wire it up and it did work and you know what went on next it overheated after about 20 min. I have more of these coils anyone know what resistor I could use to make this work and tell me how to wire it in or should I quit thinking about this and just rewind my old dc coil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matchless View Post
    I hate to get back on this topic but I have a Struthers-Dunn 240 volt ac coil that will fit my contactor.I did wire it up and it did work and you know what went on next it overheated after about 20 min. I have more of these coils anyone know what resistor I could use to make this work and tell me how to wire it in or should I quit thinking about this and just rewind my old dc coil.
    If it is an AC coil just trial-run the f***ker off a variac, temporarily independently powered for the test. Now MEASURE what Voltage is good enough to hold it in and not overheat. AC need not "waste" power in heating a current-limiting resistor.

    Odds-are a cheap multi-tap "control" transformer will be found with a useful Voltage and power. THAT power can then "temporarily" be used by means of a dirt-common SMALL relay so the existing DC circuitry activates the AC coil's separate power source.

    Now.. that's a kludge.. A monkey-patch. No defense.

    But kludge or not, maybe also a "money patch" because it can get you making chips WHILE a DC coil is being wound.

    Which you should do anyway.

    It just no longer has to be an emergency rush-job.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matchless View Post
    I hate to get back on this topic but I have a Struthers-Dunn 240 volt ac coil that will fit my contactor.I did wire it up and it did work and you know what went on next it overheated after about 20 min. I have more of these coils anyone know what resistor I could use to make this work and tell me how to wire it in or should I quit thinking about this and just rewind my old dc coil.
    So what is the resistance of these coils?

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    Quote Originally Posted by matchless View Post
    I hate to get back on this topic but I have a Struthers-Dunn 240 volt ac coil that will fit my contactor.I did wire it up and it did work and you know what went on next it overheated after about 20 min. I have more of these coils anyone know what resistor I could use to make this work and tell me how to wire it in or should I quit thinking about this and just rewind my old dc coil.

    Well not surprised that it burned up because it needs to be within a reasonable current range. At the end of the day there really is no difference between an AC coil and a DC coil. They are both a wire wound around a spool / bobbin. Who knows what DC current / voltage is appropriate for your AC coils and whether that appropriate current / voltage would be enough to pull in the contactor. If we knew the current (amps) through the AC coil while in operation with DC we could make an educated estimate on what resistor may be appropriate.

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    The resistance on the ac coil 890 ohms,don,t have a real good amp meter but seems to be 1 amp or less.I have ordered the wire to wind a new coil 39 awg. So this will be temporary fix if I can make it work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matchless View Post
    The resistance on the ac coil 890 ohms,don,t have a real good amp meter but seems to be 1 amp or less.I have ordered the wire to wind a new coil 39 awg. So this will be temporary fix if I can make it work.

    So here are some references for converting an AC coil for DC usage

    I haven't digested them all yet, but it is possible.....just need to get the right DC voltage on the coil (with a resistor)

    Difference Between AC Contactor and DC Contactor | ATO.com

    Can a DC coil of a contactor be used with AC or vice versa ?

    there is more info out there on the topic as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matchless View Post
    The resistance on the ac coil 890 ohms,don,t have a real good amp meter but seems to be 1 amp or less.I have ordered the wire to wind a new coil 39 awg. So this will be temporary fix if I can make it work.
    The DC coils in the 240v machines are about 4.3-4.4 kohm

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