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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    All this sturm und drang over a coil. You make the new coil with wire half the cross sectional area, which is three numbers in wire sizes. You can't run an AC coil with the same DC voltage as the AC one because it will draw too much current. A contactor needs extra magnetic force to pull in an open armature because the air gap reduces the flux. Once it is closed, you can reduce the current. An AC operated relay does this automatically by the increase in inductance of the closed magnetic path. A DC coil doesn't and larger contactors use a second coil or resistor switched into the circuit by an auxiliary contact.

    When winding a new coil, usually it is good enough to simply fill the bobbin with the right size wire, keeping it level winding and being careful to fill all the way to the bobbin flange so a later turn cannot slip down to an earlier turn because the inductive pulse when the supply circuit is opened there will be a high voltage pulse that might break down the insulation on the wire. I wrap the coils in fiberglass tape and vacuum impregnate them with transformer varnish. I normally get $90 for a one off like this.

    Bill
    It ain't "sturm und drang". It's succession planning.

    Or reducing the NEED to have to custom fab.

    You up for making these ten years out? Twenty five?

    I surely am not.

    My 10EE's are older than I am and doing far better for their age as well!

    Bite the bullet, accept the utility of adding a dirt-common 24 Volt control transformer, and it seems it is "about time" to duplicate the DC panel's functionality with currently manufactured and inexpensive components.

    Especially if there are several choices for each, none of them any longer rare or costly, let alone "unique".

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    It ain't "sturm und drang". It's succession planning.

    Or reducing the NEED to have to custom fab.

    You up for making these ten years out? Twenty five?

    I surely am not.

    My 10EE's are older than I am and doing far better for their age as well!

    Bite the bullet, accept the utility of adding a dirt-common 24 Volt control transformer, and it seems it is "about time" to duplicate the DC panel's functionality with currently manufactured and inexpensive components.

    Especially if there are several choices for each, none of them any longer rare or costly, let alone "unique".
    Change the whole system for one little coil? Ridiculous. The two 10EEs I maintain are in constant use commercially and are stock except for the unreliable and expensive timers in the Modular. I replaced them with modern units but otherwise left the lathes original. The only things a modern electrician would have trouble are the thyratrons and the solid state replacements now available solve that.

    Bill

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  4. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    Change the whole system for one little coil? Ridiculous. The two 10EEs I maintain are in constant use commercially and are stock except for the unreliable and expensive timers in the Modular. I replaced them with modern units but otherwise left the lathes original. The only things a modern electrician would have trouble are the thyratrons and the solid state replacements now available solve that.

    Bill
    Those very "solid state" replacements are a stunning example of why barriers to change can and SHOULD be explored!

    They were ingineered-up out of NOW common components by a person willing to take some risks and invest HIS time and HIS money ON those very risks.

    That after LONG YEARS of others - yourself among them, was it not? Saying it should be possible - but never actually doing it..whilst I said they would never work as well as the tubes without all the rest of the sensing and control "goods" a purpose built ALL solid-state DC drive brings to the party.

    Same function. Very different ways of going about it. A "mix" should not work as well as either of 100% tube or 100% solid state.

    We were not so much "wrong" as oblivious to the now proven facts that:

    A) It actually could be implemented, and

    B) It works "well enough" to get the simple job of making chips DONE.

    Why, then, should antique sensing relays or even older technology brute force contactors gone scarce be sacred?

    The goal - ANY drive system, is the same. To keep one more 10EE running, not being melted-down and lost forever.

    There are MANY common components as can do either of those tasks, and lots of them are even cheap and proven-reliable as well as plentiful.

    The Earth DOES have a way of shifting under our very feet off the back of economics if nought else. A person doesn't have to embrace all changes.

    But it is a losing battle to try to prevent most of them. On any subject.

  5. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Those very "solid state" replacements are a stunning example of why barriers to change can and SHOULD be explored!

    They were ingineered-up out of NOW common components by a person willing to take some risks and invest HIS time and HIS money ON those very risks.

    That after LONG YEARS of others - yourself among them, was it not? Saying it should be possible - but never actually doing it..whilst I said they would never work as well as the tubes without all the rest of the sensing and control "goods" a purpose built ALL solid-state DC drive brings to the party.

    Same function. Very different ways of going about it. A "mix" should not work as well as either of 100% tube or 100% solid state.

    We were not so much "wrong" as oblivious to the now proven facts that:

    A) It actually could be implemented, and

    B) It works "well enough" to get the simple job of making chips DONE.

    Why, then, should antique sensing relays or even older technology brute force contactors gone scarce be sacred?

    The goal - ANY drive system, is the same. To keep one more 10EE running, not being melted-down and lost forever.

    There are MANY common components as can do either of those tasks, and lots of them are even cheap and proven-reliable as well as plentiful.

    The Earth DOES have a way of shifting under our very feet off the back of economics if nought else. A person doesn't have to embrace all changes.

    But it is a losing battle to try to prevent most of them. On any subject.


    I can't even expend the time (and haven't) to read this pontification.

    I've been working on contributing some actual useful stuff to this thread as I work through my coil reproduction and work through those details.

    Did this thread hit 100 yet as someone suggested?

  6. #45
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    I looked at the solid state replacement and concluded that it shouldn't be too hard, but I have enough spare thyratrons that it wasn't worth investing the effort.

    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Same function. Very different ways of going about it. A "mix" should not work as well as either of 100% tube or 100% solid state.
    You mean like the Tektronix 564 oscilloscope that was the storage scope standard for years? But what do they know?

    Rakort, may I offer some tips? Make a Delrin spool and obtain some thin Mylar tape and epoxy in two syringes, the most viscous available. Tape the wire to the inside of the spool flange down to the cylindrical core and leave a little tape extend beyond the flange. Fold that over the edge and stick it to the outside of the flange, then tie the remaining wire out of the way. Wind the first layer and stop. Mix a little of the epoxy and paint it on the winding with an expendable artist's paint brush or a Popsicle stick, as thick a layer as will stay in place. Wind successive layers through the glue until it has been absorbed, then recoat and continue. Make sure each layer goes all the way to the flange so there is no room for a turn to slip down next to a beginning one, creating a potential breakdown. Don't spin it too fast or you will have epoxy all over. When the spool is full, wrap a couple of turns of tape around it, attach the leads, and tape over them.

    When the epoxy cures, you will have the equivalent of a vacuum impregnated coil without needing a vacuum chamber.

    Happy winding,

    Bill

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  8. #46
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    Yes Bill you make some tips and I appreciate it. I like useful input in this thread!!!

    So I've done a bunch of calcs, of course nothing agrees with others inputs like noted coil resistances. I'll share more about all that soon. Like you said....get the right size wire and fill the bobbin up!(with some other good advice along the way).

    Currently here is where I am at....a bunch of calcs on a spread sheet, consulting with a retired engineer(father of an engineer that works with me) that has designed coils for his career, and a stick of delrin in hand. What I really need to know is what size wire to put on the bobbin!?


    I've also asked you once, but think it fell into the void, to wind a coil for me. I'm still totally open to that option! I'll make the bobbin and supply the wire, what say ye?

    thanks
    Brian



    img_20191123_205234616.jpg

    img_20191123_204744555.jpg






    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    Rakort, may I offer some tips? Make a Delrin spool and obtain some thin Mylar tape and epoxy in two syringes, the most viscous available. Tape the wire to the inside of the spool flange down to the cylindrical core and leave a little tape extend beyond the flange. Fold that over the edge and stick it to the outside of the flange, then tie the remaining wire out of the way. Wind the first layer and stop. Mix a little of the epoxy and paint it on the winding with an expendable artist's paint brush or a Popsicle stick, as thick a layer as will stay in place. Wind successive layers through the glue until it has been absorbed, then recoat and continue. Make sure each layer goes all the way to the flange so there is no room for a turn to slip down next to a beginning one, creating a potential breakdown. Don't spin it too fast or you will have epoxy all over. When the spool is full, wrap a couple of turns of tape around it, attach the leads, and tape over them.

    When the epoxy cures, you will have the equivalent of a vacuum impregnated coil without needing a vacuum chamber.

    Happy winding,

    Bill

  9. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    You mean like the Tektronix 564 oscilloscope that was the storage scope standard for years? But what do they know?
    BTDTGTTS, too, and you knew that, already.

    But the price of my Rigol digital 4-trace with colour, memory, "smarts" and toys I haven't begun to explore wouldn't even buy the damned CART those lovely old Tek's had to ride about on, even in the dollar of their era.

    It's about the hours of our mortal lives, eventually.. When we divert of them to DIY, tediously, one-off, and by hand to replicate a function gone cheaper by far off the back of the mass production as serves a population that has grown the far larger markets than those of days past.

    90 bucks is a bargain for a one-off coil. Good on yah.

    But only 130 bucks buys me an entire brand-new contactor with specs a full order of magnitude better than the high-grade, but already old-tech ones MMT / Reliance adopted, 1940's.

    Not as if it was gender reassignment surgery or switching political parties.

    Still a 10EE lathe, no matter how the Electrons are managed.

  10. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    BTDTGTTS, too, and you knew that, already.

    But the price of my Rigol digital 4-trace with colour, memory, "smarts" and toys I haven't begun to explore wouldn't even buy the damned CART those lovely old Tek's had to ride about on, even in the dollar of their era.

    90 bucks is a bargain for a one-off coil. Good on yah.

    But only 130 bucks buys me an entire brand-new contactor with specs a full order of magnitude better than the high-grade, but already old-tech ones MMT / Reliance adopted, 1940's.

    Not as if it was gender reassignment surgery or switching political parties.

    Still a 10EE lathe, no matter how the Electrons are managed.
    Of course, the 564 is over 50 year old technology. The point was that one of Tek's most successful products mixed tubes and transistors.

    Is that a DC contactor for inductive DC loads, with blow out coils and arc chutes? I have a related problem on a Le Blond Makino mill. Its AC, no problem there, but the contactor is out of print and the replacements don't fit the space so I will be standing on my head drilling new holes.

    Bill

    What does BTDTGTTS mean?

  11. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitandmiss View Post
    We are up to post #34, stay tuned, this thread could reach a hundred posts by Dec.
    Well we are half way there with 6 more days to go!!

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  13. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by rakort View Post
    Yes Bill you make some tips and I appreciate it. I like useful input in this thread!!!

    So I've done a bunch of calcs, of course nothing agrees with others inputs like noted coil resistances. I'll share more about all that soon. Like you said....get the right size wire and fill the bobbin up!(with some other good advice along the way).

    Currently here is where I am at....a bunch of calcs on a spread sheet, consulting with a retired engineer(father of an engineer that works with me) that has designed coils for his career, and a stick of delrin in hand. What I really need to know is what size wire to put on the bobbin!?


    I've also asked you once, but think it fell into the void, to wind a coil for me. I'm still totally open to that option! I'll make the bobbin and supply the wire, what say ye?

    thanks
    Brian



    img_20191123_205234616.jpg

    img_20191123_204744555.jpg
    I'm a little puzzled in that the picture appears to be of a Struthers Dunn contactor. Since there are two of them, do you not need two coils?

    Re adding a resistor, there is no reason you can't. Just get an adjustable one and set it to the same resistance as the coil. Twice the coil voltage will get you the same current as the coil would draw on the lower voltage.

    I can certainly make new replacements. There is a good chance I have the right wire.

    Bill

  14. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    I'm a little puzzled in that the picture appears to be of a Struthers Dunn contactor. Since there are two of them, do you not need two coils?

    Re adding a resistor, there is no reason you can't. Just get an adjustable one and set it to the same resistance as the coil. Twice the coil voltage will get you the same current as the coil would draw on the lower voltage.

    I can certainly make new replacements. There is a good chance I have the right wire.

    Bill
    I do not need two coils, yes it is a S-D contactor.

    I do have both the 125VDC and 230VDC (250VDC?) versions of the contactor so I do in fact have an option to re-purpose one of the 125VDC coils with a resistor to cut the voltage in half for that coil.

    On my 230 VDC contactor one of the coils is burnt out as it was shoddily reproduced at one point and was wound with wire that was larger than I thought was appropriate so probably had low resistance and too much current and overheated. The other original (reverse) coil appears to be in fine shape (and is the one that is pictured).


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