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    Default Monarch 10ee - Electrical issue

    I recently bought a 10ee made in 1963. The original electronics were removed during a government upgrade in 1993. When I purchased it, it was running and wired to 440 volts. I want to run it with 220 v in my shop. Will this be a difficult conversion. Thanks, Greg. ec0cc916-52ef-4fa1-9a58-90d59a849e6b.jpg
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails af223bff-ddf6-4246-968b-ea668005d501.jpg   d0aa40a8-bda4-4953-b99c-185a5c4c4f24.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregfortin View Post
    I recently bought a 10ee made in 1963. The original electronics were removed during a government upgrade in 1993. When I purchased it, it was running and wired to 440 volts. I want to run it with 220 v in my shop. Will this be a difficult conversion. Thanks, Greg. ec0cc916-52ef-4fa1-9a58-90d59a849e6b.jpg
    Presume that is the one with Fincor DC Drive "plus-plus" a tribe and a half of other band-aids that Greg L. has asked the manuals be copied?

    Several "batches" were done that way. Couple of things to check before we can be certain.

    Have a look at this site and see if you are looking at an uncased, open-chassis Fincor 2600 unit.. among other things in that huge cabinet...

    FINCOR Series 2600/2610 DC Drives |

    Next up is to ascertain if it was a "standard" one or a special.

    Standard units ran only off single-phase, and only with either of 115 or 230 Volts input for 90 VDC or 180 VDC output.

    The good news is that it is already single-phase, and that the 440/220 transformer should no longer be needed.

    The not-as-good news is that the 10EE DC motors all wanted 230 VDC per nameplate, and 245-260 VDC per actual practice, kick serious ass at 270 VDC.

    At only 180 VDC max, they are starving.

    You'd have to know Buckeye hot-rodders and Reliance's deep pockets of reserve?



    That said, if it actually ran RECENTLY, it should still make chips with minimal fuss. SMALLER chips @ only 2/3'rds the expected power generally ARE "less fuss"!



    If there's a plan for newer. smaller, full-power, and far more appropriate electronics still "current", not obsolete?

    The 5 HP motor Modular conversion would be identical to the one everettengr wrote up on PM using (Eurotherm)/Parker-SSD 514C-16, plus SSD-507.

    All of that fits inside the base casting, so the big cabinet can be converted to hold tooling, lube oil, dog food, trashy magazines, smelly steal-toad workboots.. wotever.

    His/our setup changes not one wit for either of the 3 HP "large frame" motor of the MG-era, (as mine is) or the 3 HP "small frame" motor of the WiaD era (which I've also tested before selling-on that motor).

    You should have an incoming email from me "shortly".

    Bill Hacker

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    I have seen a few Gov owned repowered machines, Thermite mentioned Fincor, another is Sabina.
    Sabina had a couple of conversions, I believe both are 3phase only.
    I f you open the doors and take some more photos, the drive conversion could be identified.

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    Yes, it has a Fincor 2600 unit. It has 3 phase 440 input, into a large transformer on the backside (appears to be single phase) with an output of 220 to the 5 HP DC motor. There is coolant pump( 1/10 HP) that is wired for 3 phase. I’ll send some pics later. Thank you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by donie View Post
    I have seen a few Gov owned repowered machines, Thermite mentioned Fincor, another is Sabina.
    Sabina had a couple of conversions, I believe both are 3phase only.
    I f you open the doors and take some more photos, the drive conversion could be identified.
    G'Morning! If this is the one just came off DualValve's K-Wopper, we have a few photos, but not as much as needed. Fincor drive plus-plus, mag prox tacho input, and some custom-fab circuits, too it appears.

    FWIW..

    - Sabina - probably "next generation people" by now - still shows up as a live company.

    - Joliet - another early provider, still has an active website, still showing Fincor Drives for sale.

    - Another early-provider was still active, East Coast, at least as a repair and custom electronics maker.

    I don't(yet) know who built the really rare "Monarch Sidney" 3-Phase factory OEM DC Drive, but it probably wasn't Monarch themselves. Custom contract fab or custom modifications to another provider probably?

    - SECO - Stewart Warner Electric, cousins to the speedometer and fuel gage people, was another.

    Then there were KB, Minariks, Dart, Danfoss-Graham, etc applied by solitary individuals more often than defense contractors.

    Top of the"food chain" were the 3-Phase input ONLY DC Drives, GE, Schneider / Emerson and others. Those are easiest as they need no boost transformer.

    But yah need actual 3-Phase. Cannot "de-rate" and run off single-phase like a VFD. Direct switching of each phase leg. No capacitors to share the load.

    Still on my "to do" list to get a 3-Phase-only unit into my "lab" for test so as to do side by-side comparison off Utility-mains grade 3-Phase MEP-803a gen set, Phase-Perfect 3-Phase, and RPC 3-Phase ...since I have all three.

    Other than PWM or PAM units, DC Drives don't have the capacitor banks to gradually die of old age like VFD have, so even old ones can still work OK.

    Between and among several of us, we have the manuals and such to keep these running. Or help with a conversion.

    Or a BACK conversion to OEM. If parts can be gathered-up.

    Y'all might find it comical, but I'm also about to ship a complete MG unit to BACK convert a 10EE to its original sweet, clean "rotating power", too.

    Not the first one, either!

    "One hand washes the other"

    Anything that keeps another 10EE running....


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    The Sabina solid state drive was the most expensive 1990s aftermarket conversion at a numbing $8000 + shipping the machine to and from California!
    Back then a non working EE could be that much, if you wanted one of these machines running and sitting in your shop, back then would be likely over $15000.
    With no suitable VFD, or helpful forum, that was a real problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregfortin View Post
    Yes, it has a Fincor 2600 unit. It has 3 phase 440 input, into a large transformer on the backside (appears to be single phase) with an output of 220 to the 5 HP DC motor. There is coolant pump( 1/10 HP) that is wired for 3 phase. I’ll send some pics later. Thank you.
    Thanks,

    I suggested email so it can HANDLE the larger graphics files that PM limits.

    I started out looking at "many" other DC drives before I arrived at the Eurotherm/Parker-SSD's, have "many" KB-Penta here, and most of the manuals on hard drive for years already for SECO, Fincor and many others.

    I also have "many" DC motors, but all of them aside from the four 10EE motors ARE 90 VDC or 180 VDC wound. Those one need no boost transformers off single-phase 220-250 VAC.

    My mains are a reliable 245-246 VAC, FWIW, and KB-Penta staff had confirmed years ago their nominal 230 VAC has no issues working indefinitely at up to 250 VAC input. But no more than that.

    Problem is... 180 VDC will get a 230 VDC-wound 10EE motor to "make chips" but besides being weaker it is a right bitch to get it to regulate well under load.

    Roughly HALF the bits and pieces in your big cabinet - if it is the one DualValve has already sent me partial photos of - is dedicated to addressing that regulation and stability problem as much as it is just making the motor go 'round and 'round.

    Where to find a better solution? Europe.

    Europe uses higher Voltages to save on expensive Copper than Copper-rich North America.

    So I ended up with the Bristol, UK designed Shackelton Systems "SSD" drives sold first to Eurotherm, now owned by Parker-Hannifin.

    The older ones were rated for around 440 VAC input. Current ones can work at 480 to 500 VAC input.

    There ARE others, but nearly all are 10 HP and above, and/or three-phase, only, and/or cost about double the new price of a Eurotherm/Parker-SSD and/or can only be found NEW, whereas the SSD's sold all over the globe and show up used, often.

    Surplused used ones made in the UK have even been coming back out of PRC where they had been at work in Chinese factories! Pity they don't come with "airmiles"!

    Used DC drives are not as risky as used VFD. OTOH, that's well-known, so you don't SAVE as much, either. I've seen plenty of KB goods on ebay asking higher prices, used, than the distributors charge for NEW with full warranty.

    Out of four 514C-16 SSDs bought used or NOS, only ONE was faulty on arrival. Not sure if I can fix it. Not worth the bother at around $300-$400 used and only about $1100-$1200, new.

    By comparison, a Schneider / Emerson "Telemechanique" DC Drive is around $2,300 or more, new. Good drives those are, but not as easy a "fit" to a 10EE's needs as the 4Q SSD, even so.

    "Foidermore".. a Fincor 2601 is the wrong Fincor. It's only 3 HP rated.

    The Fincor 2600, which is 5 HP-rated, would be better, but neither of them can take the approx 290-320 VAC input needed to get at least 230 VDC back out to the 10EE motor. Which Monarch/Reliance ran at MORE than that, even in MG days. PM members have reported measuring around 245 VDC or so actual, not nominal.

    "Cheated"? So what. America had wars to be won.

    "Technically".. the Parker-SSD 514C, rated at only 16A - is not strong enough to run the 18-plus FLA 5 HP motors of a Module drive era 10EE, but....

    THERMALLY the 514C-16 is still a 6 HP drive, and conservatively rated.

    What we did.. for everettengr's 5 HP GE Kinamatic was to use the same settings I OVER drive my 3 HP motor to 4.5 HP or so with:

    - bumped the input voltage up to 320 VAC or so (I use ~350 VAC, have tested at around 370 and a bit)

    - set the options for the 16A max, but ALSO 150% 90-second overload permitted.

    Not 100% certain that could match an OEM Module drive under SUSTAINED max load - it should not.

    But a 10EE is not a long-bed lathe. It can only stay in the cut for a max of 20 inches, (or the rare 30").

    So there's time to cool-off between passes.

    Besides, we aren't running desperate HARD making goods for a war.

    Few if any of us ever push a 10EE to the max in any case, so it turned out to be "close enough to max" to not have to jump up to a more expensive 32 Amp capable 514C-32 SSD.

    Your Fincor rig is weak compared to the OEM "hollow state" module drive or a properly boosted SSD drive.

    That don't mean "useless" nor even a bother to you.

    The mag-prox tach input gives it decent stability, so plenty of lighter-duty chjps can and have been made off the reduced power.

    You wouldn't be using all the OEM power most-days in any case.

    Still.. MG, WiaD, Modular, or similar to full-OEM FULL power DC drive?

    It's damned nice to HAVE it THERE because it makes all the lesser-stress work go ever-so-smooth!

    Ask the man from Walla Walla.

    "SE grin smooth" a full-power in reserve 10EE can be!


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    Default 10ee retrofit electrical system

    More pics of the retrofitted 10ee
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 3f6e1c6e-8a78-4578-9cfb-8049702d7db8.jpg   0b86f4c8-604c-49f8-a6e4-6153dc718da0.jpg   946b41f0-9649-4292-9d7b-974b0d29bec2.jpg   b68a39a3-e1b1-48f1-9f72-0af5b1376485.jpg   5b30332a-33ad-4b1d-bebb-e213ae1057ba.jpg  


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    Quote Originally Posted by gregfortin View Post
    More pics of the retrofitted 10ee
    UNfortunately.. even zoomed, I cannot read the label on the Acme transformer.

    Which is important.

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    Congratulations.

    I bought my '51 from the same 'batch' in 2016. Mine is a '51. The Navy had them rebuilt in the early 90's. Soon after they were donated to this educational non-profit. They skipped the 'rusting in a field' seasoning step that most surplused MIL machines follow.

    We're starting to get some critical mass here from that group of Navy rebuilds - there is at least one more member with a Defense Logistics Agency rebuild.

    I inspected and ran your lathe under power in 2017, when it was SOLD along with 11 others at an online-only auction. It seemed I was the only person doing serious inspections. There were many shenanigans in that auction, and some of the 10ee's were never picked up.

    Your machine likely has the same drive as mine and most of the others I inspected, a Fincor 2601. It will run on single phase 220. It is RPM limited due to insufficient voltage. Though the quality of the wiring and conversion are really nice and will be a huge help if you upgrade. When I inspected the lathes I found one that had schematics of the conversion, including the wiring numbers. I took photos but they aren't great. It'd be nice if someone who has originals could get scans made.

    The beds these lathes were ground during the rebuild and they are Flat. When I first measured, I thought my indicator was not setup correctly. I'm not sure what else the rebuild touched. Seems like a Navy rebuild would not spare expense and might include bearings throughout, etc. I did not come up with much when I searched for more info on the rebuild, and did not try and contact DLA.

    The saddle on mine rides low due to wear and is now touching the flat way. You should check for that by removing the front flat wiper and measuring the clearance with feeler gauges. The 'quick' fix is to remove the saddle and machine additional clearance. You may also need to compensate for a lower apron height in relation to the leadscrew, etc.

    In conversations with some management at the non-profit, it was apparent they lacked maint staff. That is typical - grants are available for hard goods but seldom for maint. Plan accordingly.

    As a quick near term step, I'd suggest removing the wipers and getting any trapped chips and gunk out, and make sure there is lube in there before moving the carriage around much. You'll probably need to remove the carriage for an R&R of the lube system and to clean off old coolant. You will be at serious risk of Shipwrights disease.

    My inspection notes for your machine mention an unknown headstock noise. I wondered if there was a spindle issue, though there could be many other causes. I think it has been years since they used these machines at the facility. How are the headstock lube levels? I would not run it at all until you are sure there is oil in the bearings - they may be completely dry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregfortin View Post
    More pics of the retrofitted 10ee

    Greg, Are you, by chance, using an iPhone to take your photos?

    Cal

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    Your transformers may be the same as mine.


    Control panel guts, drive enclosure transformer and tailstock compartment transformer:

    Edit: fix photos
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails control.panel2.jpg   control.panel1.jpg   control.panel.front.jpg   transformer.controlbox.jpg   transformer.tailstock.jpg  

    Last edited by Glug; 11-26-2019 at 09:31 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glug View Post
    Your machine likely has the same drive as mine and most of the others I inspected, a Fincor 2601. It will run on single phase 220. It is RPM limited due to insufficient voltage.
    Bingo. Thank you for that. They took the wiser path.

    It closes the loop on TWO mysteries.

    That clarifies what they DID, and maybe even WHY they did it.

    Point One:

    At only 180 VDC into a motor wound for 230 VDC, the PSU isn't pushing enough Voltage for the motor to take-up its nameplate amperage. You couldn't get a 5 HP motor to suck hard enough to NEED more than a 3 HP DC drive.

    Point Two:

    As 230 VDC is needed to hit "base" RPM at full torque, Field at 115 DC, also per nameplate;

    - With a mere 180 VDC, the "new" base RPM of the "large frame" 3 HP Reliance dropped down from 670 RPM to around 400 RPM. Then the Field had to be weakened. Somewhere around 1000 RPM, stability started to suffer. An UNLOADED motor could hit its design 2500 RPM, but it was weak and unstable under actual load.

    KB experience, which won't stand a boost. Same again Beel/BICL D510 which COULD stand a boost, but seldom GOT it.

    - Move-over to the 3 HP "small frame" Reliance, WiaD era. Now we have an OEM "Base" RPM of what was it? 1150? The conversion contractors added a tachogenerator, (GE unit. Grainger still list them). Well. OK.. they were probably good for a useful 2,000 RPM, not the OEM 4,000 - but wot the hey. 3 HP @ nearly double the RPM of the older large frame 3 HP also means less TORQUE, so not really VERY good.

    - Next go, the 5 HP motors of the Modular era. Same elevated "base" RPM vs the oldest motor, but now we have our torque budget restored to eat into.

    Best guess? These conversions didn't match Monarch "Module" drive machines by but roughly half.

    But even so.. produced reasonably stable 2,000 - 2,500 RPM lathes with roughly double the turning power of a Hardinge, roughly triple that of a SB 10", and 50% higher spindle RPM than, for example a Monarch 12C- or a Pratt & Whitney.

    Not as powerful nor as fast as a full-bore 10EE, no.

    But all-around USEFUL, even so.

    And ALL of the precision and resistance to vibration and chatter were "still there". At any power level.

    I did say "all around useful"?

    Besides.. full power upgrade has by 2019 gone far cheaper than it was "back in the day". Simpler and smaller as well.

    But there's no rush..

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    Another DGSC EE Project rebuild August 1993, sn 37887 built 1954.
    Fincor and KB drive controllers.
    Here is a pic of the transformer in it.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails ee-1954-dgsc.jpg   ee-1954-acme-transformer-.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by bdrennon View Post
    Another DGSC EE Project rebuild August 1993, sn 37887 built 1954.
    Fincor and KB drive controllers.
    Here is a pic of the transformer in it.
    Thank you. 2:1 step down with adjusting taps. That for 440 VAC 1-P to 220 VAC 1-P. nominal.

    That can find a new home where what you have is already 220-240 VAC 1-P.

    CAVEAT: There will be more hash of switching noise on the line banging your household goods. Full-isolation transformers make damned good filters in the zone DC Drives are nosiest. They even get marketed that way. My EGS/Hevi_Duty 230-230 label sez "Drive Isolation Transformer".

    For one of the (usually) European/world market DC Drives, we'd be looking for no less than 277 VAC (which wasn't enough - I started there...) to no more than 380 VAC, "sweet spot" around 300-320 VAC.

    Easiest to "get there" with paralleling TWO stock transformers, primary / line side, then series'ing on the secondary side.

    Fincor 26XX can't use that, but that's how it is done for DC Drives as can do.

    BTW: "Too much" Voltage into an SCR drive makes the lower speeds growlier.

    Think it through. They are "pulse" animals, not the near-as-dammit seamless "rotating" power of an MG's DC generator head.

    To reduce the current the motor is going to "integrate" when on higher Voltages, yah hafta switch a narrower slice of the time domain of the fixed frequency incoming line's sine waves "active" than would be the case at lower INPUT AC voltages.

    That means the INACTIVE gaps are wider at the pulsed DC OUTPUT.

    Without the ripple-filter inductor, it approaches driving the DC motor with a series of hammer-blows akin to a garage mechanic with an impact wrench.

    Even if you are DEEF (guilty!) the old MOTOR doesn't like those fast-rise-time hammer blows very much.

    Reliance specs an inductor EVEN ON their later inverter-duty or "Rectified Power Motor (RPM) line when over 180 VDC wound.

    Eurotherm/Parker-SSD do much the same.

    WiaD and Modular? THEIR transformer is re-purposable when converting to dirty-beach sand DC Drive.

    But there's a catch.

    When in the hollow-state Thyratron circuit, the transformer is inside the tent, pissing OUT. No need of a ripple-filter inductor in addition. It helps smooth the pulses, already.

    Once re-purposed to boost the INPUT of an SCR Thyratron drive? That transformer is now on the outside of the tent pissing IN. It reduces hash traveling back up the incoming LINE side, but now the motor needs protection added.

    TANSTAAFL. Swings and roundabouts, as it were.

    "MG's" do tend to get a shit-eating grin and wave at us with only ONE finger when it cemes to "smooth"!

    They aren't quite a "variable storage battery", but they surely do pretend well!


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    Several of these converted 10ee's showing up other than the 4 at the recent auction.
    I have the 1954 one with ELSR. 3hp original motor.

    Here is a photo of the control box.


    Well, can't post it.. the file is too large [too high resolution] I'll have to work on it later.

    Maybe Cal can post the schematics I sent him on this thread?

    DualValve.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DualValve View Post
    Several of these converted 10ee's showing up other than the 4 at the recent auction.
    I have the 1954 one with ELSR. 3hp original motor.

    Here is a photo of the control box.


    Well, can't post it.. the file is too large [too high resolution] I'll have to work on it later.

    Maybe Cal can post the schematics I sent him on this thread?

    DualValve.
    What is actually more useful "early days" at least, is a Bill Of Materials. Schematic logic plan follows what those goods dictate.

    All but few of the devices involved, MOST of the terminals can only go to one other place. Those with access to the manuals can then tell those who HAVE the physical goods what to look for to confirm.

    Team effort. PM doing what PM does best.

    Next up, is HOW they interfaced a mag-prox PULSE wheel pulsetrain to DC Drives that usually expected an Analog signal LEVEL off a tachogenerator at "X" volts per 1000 RPM of slope.

    Modern DC Drives can work with several ranges of that slope to adapt to just about any tachogenerator. One of the DIP switch settings on a 514C-XX SSD. Which otherwise regulates well-enough to not really NEED tacho input.

    Use of EITHER pulse-train OR Analog level didn't become standard until well after those conversions were made, so there will be some contractor built goods in there..

    Even MORE modern units - the PLA digitally controlled ones with logic similar to a VFD especially, it is often built-in. The function only needs one IC, and a cheap one at that. ISTR I have 3 or 4 different ones that do it in my Hell box stash.

    The other area of interest, given they have a separate Field Supply PCB, is whether and how well they utilized the "Field Regulation" concept. That CAN make running in the Field Weakened range GREATLY more stable than just matching-up a pair of rheostats.

    That feature was born on elevators a VERY long time ago, and was NOT cheap.

    It has since become a basically standard - or at least easily added-on option - on most of the 3-Phase-only DC drives, long-since as well.

    The SSD 514C series prior-generation had it as a separate box, no longer made.
    The SSD "white paper' on it did a superb job of describing the goal.

    Basically, the FIELD supply - operating in "current mode", outermost feedback loop, is given master control, then commands the Armature supply, now in the inner loop, to do its bidding to hold requested RPM under varying load.

    Jonathan Esars's late Dad designed a sub-system for Field Regulation right onto what became the Beel/BICL D510's PCB, but those done for 10EE's "attempted use" never even stuffed that part of the PCB with components.

    "At the moment" if ANY DC Drive used Field Regulation, it would be one or several of those older Sabina, Joliet, etc. "deep-pockets" DoD contractor built projects ELSE most major-maker stock, general-purpose 3-Phase DC Drives, current and recent manufacture NOT specifically interfaced to a 10EE.

    We chikn's have not.. YET .. had the resources to re-implement that off doing conversions one at a time from whatever components we can buy on-the-cheap. Surely not for single-phase drives. Yet.

    It would be nice to bridge that gap, as a "working" 10EE spends more time in the Field-Weakened range than not.

    Roughly any spindle RPM above about 700 on the 2500 RPM, top, MG, or above about 1200 RPM on the 4,000 RPM machines is where the "crossover" has already taken place.

    "PS": Why there has been a "gap" until the PM community figured out it was less WORK if not also less SPEND to restore any and all OEM Monarch drives - so long as one had AT LEAST ... a functioning DC motor?

    VFD's arrived. Then they got cheaper.

    3-phase motors were ALWAYS cheaper than the "Type T" ELSE "Special Machine Tool Duty" DC motors.

    Reliance 5 HP RPM III entered the market with MSRP's of over $11,000 US dollars, quantity ONE. US$. Not Hong Kong dollars. They still command those prices and above.

    Tachogenerator was another $1,100 bucks. Add $200+ for the long mounting tail that got it TF away from undue influence from the motor's massive magnetic field.

    Got any version AT ALL of a Monarch-utilized DC motor?

    Hang onto it. Lots of ways to power it. PM'ers can help. OEM or otherwise. No gearbox surgery required.

    Yah cannot AFFORD a new one!


  19. #18
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    What is actually more useful "early days" at least, is a Bill Of Materials. Schematic logic plan follows what those goods dictate.

    Team effort. PM doing what PM does best.

    Next up, is HOW they interfaced a mag-prox PULSE wheel pulsetrain to DC Drives that usually expected an Analog signal LEVEL off a tachogenerator at "X" volts per 1000 RPM of slope.
    I'll try and get my schematic photos together. A while back I'd begun cleaning them up, correcting perspective etc. Still hoping someone can scan originals. It is pretty neat that the guys who actually did the rebuilds are named on the badge. It would be nice to get in touch and get more info on the history of these rebuilds - how many were done, what was done, etc.

    Looks like we are now up to 5 PM members with DGSC conversions. Probably time to start a thread as a respository of general info that is specific to those machines.

    Not the best photos, but this is the tach setup on my machine. I recall there is a module in the control box to condition the signal. And there is always the question of what happens if the tach signal is lost - does it go overspeed?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails tach.sensor1.jpg   tach.sensor2.jpg  

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    Default 10ee Electrical

    36b9cca3-e227-4d36-b446-39d3d8109124.jpg0078a337-9cc7-4114-9445-bccf19565df0.jpg009090ec-78df-4e8a-a5a6-a90d1cf5ba7d.jpg2e6d027d-af9d-4b90-82b8-883a4af84cd0.jpg2f73d050-a4c1-4b46-8371-c21bfe24dd60.jpgI’m sending some additional pics.

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    Default 10ee

    New pics of 10ee
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails ced17879-b101-46f0-8ea4-c5e2d43d3230.jpg   d6dce7d8-8fe3-43c5-8404-d23f02cfd64d.jpg   eccbd8b2-ef82-455d-9603-fdef7abb5199.jpg  


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