Monarch 10ee - Electrical issue - Page 2
Close
Login to Your Account
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 21 to 40 of 40
  1. #21
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Virginia
    Posts
    27,281
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7561
    Likes (Received)
    8507

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Glug View Post
    Not the best photos, but this is the tach setup on my machine. I recall there is a module in the control box to condition the signal. And there is always the question of what happens if the tach signal is lost - does it go overspeed?
    Known risk, so the "module" should have a safe default engineered-in, so no, not likely.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Virginia
    Posts
    27,281
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7561
    Likes (Received)
    8507

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gregfortin View Post
    That Fincor 2602 had multiple options. Should be some extra characters on it somewhere that indicate which ones.

    See the Joliet listing:

    FINCOR Series 2600/2610 DC Drives |

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Michigan
    Posts
    61
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    19
    Likes (Received)
    15

    Default

    From my quick read of the Fincor 2601/2602 characteristics, the major difference is increased amperage capacity to handle up to 5 horsepower.
    There were a couple of other slight differences. but my quick read was 1200+ miles ago, and three days of minimal sleep ago.. So my recollection is definitely foggy.

    The 'GregL and GregF show' will get scans of the schematics we have, And I hope if good scans are sent to Cal, that he can work some magic and post .pdf's of them for others to copy and use..

    Both machines will most likely be set up to run on 220v single phase. They will be operating at less than full power, but neither of us are doing major 'hogging' of parts on these lathes.. We both have large, gear-head engine lathes for making big, blue chips.

    Glug: please PM me or email me, I'm wondering where in Michigan you are located?

    More later..

    DualValve

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Virginia
    Posts
    27,281
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7561
    Likes (Received)
    8507

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DualValve View Post
    From my quick read of the Fincor 2601/2602 characteristics, the major difference is increased amperage capacity to handle up to 5 horsepower.
    The options that could be more interesting are those for contactorless operation, dynamic braking, and handling of reversing differently.

    Yes on the usability, as-is. If ever you want more at some future date, changing to a full-power drive won't be at all difficult.

    Not hard to have BOTH, either. Final-drive motor only has four wires, after all. My "transfer switch" a common Hubbell twist-lock!


  5. #25
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Kansas
    Posts
    8
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    14
    Likes (Received)
    1

    Default

    [QUOTE=thermite;3449702]The options that could be more interesting are those for contactorless operation, dynamic braking, and handling of reversing differently.

    Yes on the usability, as-is. If ever you want more at some future date, changing to a full-power drive won't be at all difficult.

    Not hard to have BOTH, either. Final-drive motor only has four wires, after all. My "transfer switch" a common Hubbell twist-lock!

    My 37887 built 1954 has a Fincor 2601A, which per the manual has dynamic braking and Armature Contact Reverse. Motor is 3 HP Reliance Model 14DT, 690 rpm to 2400 rpm. BTW, the OD of the Motor mounted pulley is 8 inches. I believe the KB-240D is used for Field Control?? Having the schematics would be great. Was told machine has an unknown issue, and I have not put power to it yet.

    Bob

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Michigan
    Posts
    37
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    2

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    Greg, Are you, by chance, using an iPhone to take your photos?

    Cal
    yes, using my I-phone Cal.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Virginia
    Posts
    27,281
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7561
    Likes (Received)
    8507

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bdrennon View Post
    [
    My 37887 built 1954 has a Fincor 2601A, which per the manual has dynamic braking and Armature Contact Reverse. Motor is 3 HP Reliance Model 14DT, 690 rpm to 2400 rpm. BTW, the OD of the Motor mounted pulley is 8 inches. I believe the KB-240D is used for Field Control?? Having the schematics would be great. Was told machine has an unknown issue, and I have not put power to it yet.
    KB-240D are a whole line - some are 4Q drives, usually just short of 5 HP capable, but limited to 180 VDC out.

    I have one or two of the 4Q units in the nice NEMA-4X cases.

    Similar to the Fincor line and their options, one would need to know "which" 240 D.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Kansas
    Posts
    8
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    14
    Likes (Received)
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    KB-240D are a whole line - some are 4Q drives, usually just short of 5 HP capable, but limited to 180 VDC out.

    I have one or two of the 4Q units in the nice NEMA-4X cases.

    Similar to the Fincor line and their options, one would need to know "which" 240 D.
    KBIC-240D model 9464J with resistor for 2 HP resistor installed. This controller is in addition to the Fincor 2601A.

    Both are attached to the Field Loss Relay Board.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Arizona
    Posts
    3,631
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    828
    Likes (Received)
    482

    Default

    I'm busy for the next several days. I'll try to fix/post the wiring diagrams early next week.

    Cal

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Virginia
    Posts
    27,281
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7561
    Likes (Received)
    8507

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bdrennon View Post
    KBIC-240D model 9464J with resistor for 2 HP resistor installed. This controller is in addition to the Fincor 2601A.

    Both are attached to the Field Loss Relay Board.
    I've had a foto of that board for a while. It seems to be exactly that, eg: monitoring for outright "loss" for-sure, too LOW a field power, most probably as well. But not also Field Regulation.

    This is where latter years, more universal DC drives help.

    The SSD's, for example, tend to have both a signal and its inverse on their terminal blocks. Where a simple SSD 50X is used to power the field, one of its fault alarms or "good" signals can be used to enable/dis-enable the 515C-16 Armature supply on Field Fault, nothing more that a wire required.

    Same again the "I am AT Zero shaft rotation, dammit!" signal off the 514C-16 being a possible for Field economizer optioning.

    Otherwise, it's down to a two-box approach, max.

    ONE box only, much the same as VFD's are, for the 3-Phase DC Drives where all this stuff has been migrated "indoors", one case, essentially all the wiring right on the PCB's as printed traces, out of sight and out of mind.

    One does have to set the min and max parameters into each drive's trim potentiometer "non volatile RAM", they being analog-mostly devices.

    I LIKE Analog for this tasking. The MOTOR is "analog", so why not?

    I'm trying to avoid the newer ones, yet that have digital logic and the same keypad and cryptic code displays as VFD's.

    What was it Leonard Brandwein said?

    "Beware of computer programmers that carry SCREWDRIVERS".

    Well.. I ARE one, thanks! A trimpot dasn't lose its page in the prayer book if a spike confuses a logic array or its allegedly "NV" RAM, either one.


  11. #31
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Michigan
    Posts
    37
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    2

    Default

    I’m having copies of the brochures found with our machines copied this week.

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Kentucky USA
    Posts
    42
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    34
    Likes (Received)
    5

    Default

    GREG, I made that exact inquiry of Monarch, and the attached is what they sent me.

    Apologize, just realized yours was Modified, so these instructions probably are not useful.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 86c8fc73-e5e4-4088-8762-ea5b65c7bc26.jpg  

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Arizona
    Posts
    3,631
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    828
    Likes (Received)
    482

    Default GES DGSC-M 10EE Fincor Drive schematics

    Here are the three Fincor drive diagrams that are of the most interest:
    ges-dgsc-m-10ee-fincor-drive-003.jpg






    ges-dgsc-m-10ee-fincor-drive-010.jpg



    ges-dgsc-m-10ee-fincor-drive-002.jpg


    Cal

  14. Likes bdrennon, Glug liked this post
  15. #34
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Virginia
    Posts
    27,281
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7561
    Likes (Received)
    8507

    Default

    Per the manuals for the 2601:

    - the input is spec'ed at 230 VAC for 180 VDC output.

    - Also listed that the SCR's are not less than 600 PIV rated, may be 800 PIV.

    - And that an independent PSU provides the 24 V that becomes logic, reference and external control voltages.

    Clearly, the presence of a boost autotransformer indicates the integrator drove the 2601 at an AC Voltage above 230 VAC in order to deliver 230 VDC out, rather than 180 VDC.

    If that voltage is specified on these drawings, I have missed it.

    + It would be useful to know what that Voltage was and is.

    The Boost transformer being autotransformer-connected would not have provided drive switching noise isolation from the mains. The 440-230 step-down transformer wired in full isolation would have done.

    + It would be useful to know if that step-down transformer can also be configured in a 230-230 1:1 mode so as to continue to serve the drive isolation function when operating from 2XX VAC.

  16. #35
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Woodland Hills, Ca. and some times Hutchinson, Ks.
    Posts
    2,291
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    16
    Likes (Received)
    576

    Default

    I just saw this thread,

    The Fincor drive in my 5HP machine is a 2450 main that uses the original Monarch transformer to boost AC voltage from 240 to IIRC 284? My conversion was done by GM with an inspection date on the drive of 1995. The drive has an armature voltage meter and it will produce 230 VDC.

    The transformers for 480 called 440 in some cases was used to step down line voltage to these, the drives to the best of my knowledge were all native 240 single phase input.

    Steve

  17. #36
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Virginia
    Posts
    27,281
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7561
    Likes (Received)
    8507

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve in SoCal View Post
    I just saw this thread,

    The Fincor drive in my 5HP machine is a 2450 main that uses the original Monarch transformer to boost AC voltage from 240 to IIRC 284? My conversion was done by GM with an inspection date on the drive of 1995. The drive has an armature voltage meter and it will produce 230 VDC.

    The transformers for 480 called 440 in some cases was used to step down line voltage to these, the drives to the best of my knowledge were all native 240 single phase input.

    Steve
    Glad you weighed-in! Eagles don't flock... etc..



    When I first started on the "quest" to sort WHY packaged DC Drives had had mixed success- generally nowhere near as good as OEM, even if only MG - I had traffic with a couple of individuals who had swapped-out the SCR's in 230-in, 180 -out KB goods for higher PIV-rated ones as well.

    My FIRST go used a KBRG-255 nominal 5 HP/25 A @ 230-in, 180 VDC-out 4Q drive. Not good enough, directly off the 245 VAC line. Which I had cleared with KB as "OK". @ 250 VAC or more? Kiss my bought-new Warranty "goodbye".


    Second go, SDD-514C-16 off 240 to 277 VAC full-isolation transformer that was also around 280-plus a bit off my local service @ 245 VAC. "actual". Near-as-dammit same as your 284 VAC figure, or a mere skosh more.

    It was not quite enough, either. I already knew Monarch/Rleiance had "cheated" with around 250+ VDC available, not just 230 VDC. Around 300-320 VAC in is "good". I run more-yet, "now". About 350 VAC. I had tested at higher-yet.

    CAVEAT: I also have a spare motor with gearbox for each of those two round-dial 10EE, thanks to help from other PM'ers.

    Planned in advance to take a few stupid pills "for the team", as it were..





    Two things..

    When using "contactor reversing" with other-than fully-regenerative drives, it's the disconnect, braking, and reversing SPIKES as put the whole REST of the drive at elevated risk.

    Not theory. I repaired a BEEL/BICL D510 drive as had trashed its SCR bridge over such faux pas, even though it should NOT have done and few do.

    "4Q" drives.. even when you do not NEED regen, are durable because they reduce stress even more than they are built to endure it. No relays. No contactors. No braking resistors to switch. FA/FL and Anti-plugging inherent. No sparks. Just ignorant heat, and not much of it, even so.

    The - usually European / "global" market - goods built from the outset to live on 380 VAC to 500 VAC have different MOV's and everything else to live in that environment.

    SECO's, FINCORS, KB's et al seems to have tolerated being pushed beyond their published limits, but even so, were eating-into their designed-in reserves, even IF/AS/WHEN they had been modified. Few were.

    Eurotherm/Parker-SSD is not the only such single-phase DC Drive with more that 180 VDC output. Just the one I found plentiful, used-but-good, and still in current production, new, at a tolerable cost.

    The other thing is that Monarch+Reliance didn't limit themselves to nameplate 230 VDC, even on MG units. SEVERAL PM members have measured Armature max at 240 to 255 or so VDC and so reported "right here on PM".

    I run mine around 265-275 Max "available", even though I don't ordinarily go anywhere NEAR there with the Speed request. It leaves reserve such that Field Weakening is NOT at Armature Max, and the drive can automagically supply more ergs to keep torque up when called on.

    That reserve lets it regulate better than "book" for a circuit where there is no "active" Field Regulator commanding the whole show, nor do I (yet!) use tacho feedback.

    Cheap, Iyam! Even after blowing a fat chunk of coin on re-inventing Other People's Wheels to prove - after-the-fact, too late - that one could BE "cheap"!

    Xin Loy!

    When there IS such a critter as a proper "Field Regulator", the Armature is "slaved" as a nested inner feedback loop, the Field Regulator in the "outer" current loop now the master control interface, managing the Armature power for you. Operation in the Field Weakened Range is considerably more stable.

    This is a BIG DEAL for MG-era large-frame 3 HP motors with only 670 RPM "base" speeds. They seldom operate anywhere ELSE but in "Field Weakened" RPM band.

    WiaD and Module drive 10EE use motors with around double the base RPM, so had to have been easier to Engineer for 2000 - 3000 RPM or so stability, even if their new max of 4,000 RPM might have been used seldom, and more for lighter loads, such as polishing, than for moving serious chip. Both of the newer-era 10EE also used compensated or even compound compensated final-drive motors, not "just" the BFBI straight-shunt of the original MG era.

    A "Module" drive 10EE is a tough act to follow with a packaged DC Drive. Then again, nobody said I was not allowed to cheat!



    Modern 3-Phase-only drives MAY have this "Field REGULATOR" functionality in full. Or not. Those aimed at hoist and lifts do not need nor have it in full.

    There is more to it than "programmable" Field supply. It has to be dynamic, feedback-loop responsive, and "in charge".

    That can, and HAS been implemented with separate components on single-phase drives. Shackelton Systems / Eurotherm had a two-box approach, prior product rev to the 514C XX, long years ago.

    One of the bits of detective work, here, is to ascertain if THIS implementor ALSO built-in proper Field Regulator dynamic functionality with nested current loop control.

    One quick tell-tale is that the speed request control acts only on the Field supply.

    The Field Regulator then controls the Armature as it sees fit to hold to a commanded speed.

    I don't think we will find it, here.

    The 230 VDC max rather than 255 +/- also indicates they don't have the "BFBI" deep pockets, either.

    But these batches of conversions DID have to pass DoD and/or "Big Corp" contractor acceptance tests. BTDTGTTS meself, DoD, NASA, NGO's etc.

    Ergo there probably IS "some" effort to make it better than just stitching common parts-bin components of the era together.

    It will be interesting to see just what it was they DID do to keep their end-Lusers happy, then.

    "Happy" is kinda nice!

    Especially when we chickn's paid for it in taxes arredy, and no longer have the scratch LEFT to do it all over again out of our own over-stressed pockets!

    You'd have to ken "after tax income".. "play money".....or lack-thereof?

    Well worth some "detective work", here to "data mine" for still-useful lore.

    OEM restoral is good. Monarch tested to MAKE it so. ALL 10EE era's.

    But some times one has the lovely Dee Cee motor.. and no restorable OEM DC Drive FOR it. Cryin' shame to be FORCED to do a VFD conversion when all yah need is a decent DC Drive that actually gets the job done.
    Last edited by thermite; 12-03-2019 at 06:14 PM.

  18. #37
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Arizona
    Posts
    3,631
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    828
    Likes (Received)
    482

    Default

    The 3kVA boost transformer is an Acme T-2-53013-S. Its two 240V primary windings are in parallel and the two 120V secondary windings are also in parallel. I think that makes the no-load boost voltage 360VAC, which seems pretty high.

    The 7.5kVA step-down transformer is apparently wired with its two 230V primary windings in series and its two 115v secondary winding also in series. Reconnecting the primary windings to be in parallel should turn it into a 1:1 isolation transformer. The input fuses (FU1040...FU160) probably need to be changed to 30A. I recommend deleting the coolant pump; if retained, additional fuses or heavier wiring are probably needed. If the pump motor can be connected for 230VAC operation the overload heaters need to change, otherwise a step-up transformer would be needed.

    Transformer T114, the 250VA control transformer, has its two 230V primary windings in series. It's secondary winding is 115V, so the control relays, etc., operate from 115 VAC. To operate from 240VAC input, the primary windings can be placed in parallel.

    Cal

  19. #38
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Virginia
    Posts
    27,281
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7561
    Likes (Received)
    8507

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    The 3kVA boost transformer is an Acme T-2-53013-S. Its two 240V primary windings are in parallel and the two 120V secondary windings are also in parallel. I think that makes the no-load boost voltage 360VAC, which seems pretty high.
    It is. Too high, really. I've run the SSD's higher, but the old ones were spec'ed for 480, the newer ones 500 VAC, ergo not being pushed as the Fincor seems to have been.

    Incoming side, I would certainly keep the incoming transformer as a 1:1 re-terminated to serve as a "drive Isolation" transformer.

    That can keep the worst of the switching hash from wandering about on yer "local grid" and messing with your "wired nation" of other appliances 'puter PSU, WiFi and stuff.

    There's ANOTHER consideration with SCR direct on the phase switchers.

    The higher the incoming Voltage on an SCR drive relative to actually demanded DC out, the shorter the "ON" cycle and longer the "OFF" gap to hand the motor the needful rations of current "under the curve" to integrate, pulsed DC to smooth DC. They only operate at the ONE CPS, after all. Double line Hz.

    Especially raspy when running at anything under flat-out gallop.

    That not only makes for an acoustically nosier system, it really makes the ripple-filter choke essential on single-phase DC drives for knocking the sharpish edges off the pulses so they don't hammer older "Pre Rectified Power" motors quite as hard.

    Still a good idea to have a filter choke on the DC output side, between drive and motor, even on the fancier 24-psuedo-pulse 3-Phase-only drives.

    We still have the older generations of final-drive motors, and even so, Reliance specs a choke/ripple-filter inductor EVEN ON RPM III motors when wound for higher than 180 VDC operation.

    Relays? Contactors? Don't gots any with a 4Q drive. Pass.

    But if I did have?

    I'd use a common 24 V control transformer for the wider range of affordable goods in the market since OSHA thought lower control voltages were a good idea for reduced risk of shock vs line-voltage controls.

    Juice pump is fine on either 120 or 240 single-phase PROVIDING one realizes new ones are cheap and cheeerful in either of CI or poly-wotever body, pump, and plumbing.

    The one that replaced the dead European one on the Kasto PHS is only a 20-dollah HVAC "condensate" pump. Doesn't need even three whole feet of "head" for a power hacksaw after all. 10EE sump isn't so deep, either, relative to tool-tip head. It should have greater flow capability for HSS use, though.

  20. #39
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Michigan
    Posts
    460
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    86
    Likes (Received)
    245

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Clearly, the presence of a boost autotransformer indicates the integrator drove the 2601 at an AC Voltage above 230 VAC in order to deliver 230 VDC out, rather than 180 VDC.
    Of the running conversions I inspected, none were able to go above approximately 1000-1100 rpm. I kept my notes but they are not at hand. One of the machines went to approximately 1700 or so. I can't recall if I opened that cabinet to confirm it was a Fincor. Inspecting 11 10EE's, time was tight.

    So is there a facility to boost the voltage? Perhaps. It appears the field weaking was not working correctly on many of the conversions. Wonder why? This was a school environment, so maybe it was intentionally disabled.

    None of the conversions had spindle braking.

  21. #40
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Virginia
    Posts
    27,281
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7561
    Likes (Received)
    8507

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Glug View Post
    Of the running conversions I inspected, none were able to go above approximately 1000-1100 rpm. I kept my notes but they are not at hand. One of the machines went to approximately 1700 or so. I can't recall if I opened that cabinet to confirm it was a Fincor. Inspecting 11 10EE's, time was tight.

    So is there a facility to boost the voltage? Perhaps. It appears the field weaking was not working correctly on many of the conversions. Wonder why? This was a school environment, so maybe it was intentionally disabled.

    None of the conversions had spindle braking.
    What I still only "suspect" is that there was no analog workalike in what we've seen so far for:

    - the dual compound compensation that the MG with piggyback exciter brought to the table. Exciter set to hold field Power stable wasn't at all hard to replicate. Exciter and MG combo set to actually OFFSET increasing load by responding to changes in load had been experimented with at Sidney, and "tuned'. That was more challenging.

    The solid-state drives had better sensors for it, had good regulation in their own right at base and below. What they seemed to have NOT have had is that dual-ring feedback loop wherein the Field regulated the Armature.

    - Ergo no "real" Field Regulator function. "Fallback" was to slave to a tacho input.

    "So near, yet so far" to the point of matching - or "not quite, yet", as the Shackelton Field regulator was in the market a long time ago and nowhere near either a new and novel item nor alone.

    https://www.sdsdrives.com/downloads/...ha46443601.pdf

    Mind, "doing it right" was not cheap. See even the bone-vulture prices:

    5401-087-9-1-240-500-00 by PARKER - Buy or Repair at Radwell


    OEM drives might have been simpler, but they were also better tuned for the specific task at hand, Field Weakening range especially.

    So it ain't that "this dog won't hunt", but rather that it probably DID. "Hunt".

    Once deeper into the Field weakened range than it was able to remain stable for.


Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •