Monarch 10EE ELSR Switch Function
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  1. #1
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    Default Monarch 10EE ELSR Switch Function

    Does anyone know if the ELSR casting at the right hand side of the
    Bed functions or operates the three internal switches in the same sequence. I am comparing a 1974 machine vs 1959 machine, The newer machine makes no sense
    .
    . The 1959 will make contact with the upper switch tab in the forward direction with the lever on the carriage in the upper pos. in the middle, the two top switched do not make contact. Lower the carriage direction lever, and the middle switch makes contact. The lowest switch is triggere in the forward and reverse position. Hope this makes sense.


    The 1974- No where near this operation. Can someone open up the cover an a modular ELSR and let me know if it functions the same as the 1959 mode.

    Thanks,
    Paul

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    Going from memory and also realize I have yet to fit up the ELSR that I picked up to my non ELSR machine (translation I could easily be wrong).

    The right hand square dial machines have the major casting over on the right ( end of drive rods). On the top of the casting is a knob - forward, neutral, reverse. This knob just rotates the internals so different switches activate in different positions. So in forward one set of switches activate when the lever is moved up, change to "reverse" and the other switches are activated with the same lever motion, visa versa for moving the lever down.

    Possible to wire the switches as needed.....
    This thread may prove helpful (as well as others)
    newbie ELSR question

    Clear as mud?
    Paul

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    That's exactly like the WIAD lathe I have functions, I use one switch for one direction and the other for reverse. These are wired into my VFD. The third switch is used for spindle lock. Only makes contact when neither direction is selected. Now my modular is very differnt. The setup is almost the same as the 1959 WIAD. However, the switching arrangement make no sense. With the knob pointed to the left side, when you lift the lever to turn on, only the top switch make contact, in the middle, no switches. Down the third swicth makes contact, not the second switch as on the 1959. Putting the knob to the right side, then allows the middle switch to make contact.

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    Begs the question on the one your wondering about - does it have an original drive? The thread I linked to has some info about the wiring. It basically duplicates the function of the headstock drum switch. If you have a vfd conversion or non stock drive then things could be wired differently.

    If you did not do it already search on ELSR fair bit of info out there.
    Paul

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    I've repaired both a '74 and a '57 ELSR, and in each case I had a copy of the electrical prints for the machine. It was pretty clear how to wire it from study of the prints, but without the prints it would have been difficult. It makes a difference whether the machine has other features, such as VSR or CSCS. Sometimes the functions of the switches changed as a result of the other features. There are also some differences in what voltage levels are getting switched. In one case the wiring was carrying 220V, in another it was 110V. So I think it would be best to stop trying to diagnose the problem via other people's experience and get the correct wiring diagram for the machine. I was working from large electric prints, and I needed at least three different prints to understand the circuits and get it right. I think there are copies of those large prints on Ross' Monarch DVD, so contact him if you can't get them from Monarch.

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    I think something is wrong with the switch function. The timing is messed up between the feed rod and box assembly. I have the print for this some of the unit. Mechanically, this should work like the older one.

    What I failed to mention. This Lathe has been converted. SW 1, 2 are used. to reverse you
    must go over to the ESR antd turn the knob either to the left or Right. The main lever on the carriage musy always be lifted to the up position. You must reverse the process and move the ELSR selector switch 180 degrees.

    Aay one a have ELSR asssemble the may entertain selling? A 1959 or older will do the job for sure.

    Thanks,
    Paul

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    The schematic diagram I have for my WiaD shows both conventional and ELSR wiring.

    These both interface to the "three-wire control station" as follows:

    1) in the center position, power is supplied to the "three-wire control station" so that the control may be powered on,

    2) in the FWD position, the FWD contactor is picked, and the already on armature regulator is switched to FWD mode (the field regulator is always on when the machine itself is on),

    3) in the REV position, the REV contactor is picked, and the already on armature regulator is switched to REV mode (again, the field regulator is always on when the machine itself is on).

    Essentially, the ELSR is simulating the headstock control switches, but is using three independent Microswitches instead of one drum switch with three independent contact sets.

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    In post 6 we get the key piece of info that the drive or at least the switch configuration has been kludged! Time to roll up your sleeves and dig into the wiring to get the proper wires to the ELSR. Sounds like you can get the functionality, it's just currently butchered. Close look at schematics as rim canyon and Peter indicate should get you in the right direction. If the timing of the switches is off pull the casting to examine the operation and then adjust, there is info on this from others if you search.
    Paul

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    Found the problem. The timing was wrong.The position of the gear( inside the casting) on the end of the selector rod was not correct. I had to move it to a location that allowed all three switches to function as they should.I will have to re-drill and pin the rod end. How it got this far off, I don't know. Thanks everyonee for the advice. P.S. The wires are connected properly

    Paul

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    Quote Originally Posted by PWP View Post
    How it got this far off, I don't know.
    Odd. Can't get that way by itself...

    Before you re-drill ..any chance of cam, mounts, or the whole cluster of switches simply getting bass-ackward mounted after a previous teardown?

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    My first thought was to turn the gear 180 degrees and try to pin it at that location. Not even close
    alignment for the taper pin. It appears to have quite a bit of slop in the lever assembly monuted
    to the carraige. The final location where the whole mess works will require a new hole to be drilled approx. 45degrees from the other one. I tried many different combinations and found only two works. Two next to each other.

    Again, "how it got this far off, I don't know"

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    Quote Originally Posted by PWP View Post
    My first thought was to turn the gear 180 degrees and try to pin it at that location. Not even close
    alignment for the taper pin. It appears to have quite a bit of slop in the lever assembly monuted
    to the carraige. The final location where the whole mess works will require a new hole to be drilled approx. 45degrees from the other one. I tried many different combinations and found only two works. Two next to each other.

    Again, "how it got this far off, I don't know"
    Did a good deal of work with Microswitches of that general era in another life.

    Body is generally reversible w/r the mounting fasteners, but the actuator is seldom centred. That is where I would dig first.

    The barrel-cam being back-to-front or off-keyed would be next place.

    Not that you CANNOT re-drill... but finding out what went awry might save you from a subsequent surprise after it has been done...

    Bill

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    Default copy of the electrical prints for the ELSR for 1946 monarch 10EE.

    Quote Originally Posted by rimcanyon View Post
    I've repaired both a '74 and a '57 ELSR, and in each case I had a copy of the electrical prints for the machine. It was pretty clear how to wire it from study of the prints, but without the prints it would have been difficult. It makes a difference whether the machine has other features, such as VSR or CSCS. Sometimes the functions of the switches changed as a result of the other features. There are also some differences in what voltage levels are getting switched. In one case the wiring was carrying 220V, in another it was 110V. So I think it would be best to stop trying to diagnose the problem via other people's experience and get the correct wiring diagram for the machine. I was working from large electric prints, and I needed at least three different prints to understand the circuits and get it right. I think there are copies of those large prints on Ross' Monarch DVD, so contact him if you can't get them from Monarch.
    Hi rimcanyon,

    Do still have copy of the electrical prints for the ELSR for 1946 monarch 10EE.

    I would like to know and if you can share with me.

    Thank you,

    Javier,

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    Quote Originally Posted by PWP View Post
    Again, "how it got this far off, I don't know"
    Mine was messed up in pretty much the same way. I got it working right by opening the switch panel and watching the switches while changing the gear engagement. I think there was a way to move the rod up & down with the bar out of engagement (taper pin out) and the knob off the top - you could press the bar down from the top and up from the bottom. But that was 10 years ago....

    (The gear box was also out of time on the A-B and C-D-E. No idea who was in there before....)

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    IIRC, DaveE907 or donie had a nice post about how the cams/switches work.

    Cal

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    I have a image on photobucket that shows an old Simpson 260 VOM meter set to ohms attached to the the top micro switch "power to machine off" with that, both forward and reverse switches cant be detected. It makes things easier and safer doing the timing with the power off. The center neutral switch can be timed with the power off.

    The ELSR mechanical part can be a problem mostly when the key within the ELSR gear at the bottom of the apron gets even a little worn, to make that work the best it can, I found hand making that key and fitting it to the slot in the operating rod, maybe polish the slot in the rod also. will go along way toward making the mechanical work precisely. That in turn makes using the ELSR much easier to use and more precise on stopping the spindle. Important for that speed advantage using carbide, and threading to the bottom of blind holes, and up to shoulders.
    There is also a bolt at the very bottom of the apron that controls the throw of the spindle lever. Those things and probably a couple I forgot need to be fiddled with until....

    When the ELSR stop dog returns the spindle lever to neutral, the lever must snap in to the Neutral lock position! Otherwise, if you inadvertently, or after threading, move the carriage, the spindle lever can drop into forward by its own weight and the spindle will start.

  17. Likes Cal Haines liked this post

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