Monarch 10EE JFK Precision Collet Closer
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  1. #1
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    Default Monarch 10EE JFK Precision Collet Closer

    I have been on the hunt for a collet closer for my machine, it seems there are three options, neither of them good.

    1) Cobble one together over a few years using parts off of eBay in unknown condition

    2) But one from Monarch, about $5000

    3) Hope someone sells a solid unit of off their machine

    This lead me to give JFK Precision in Burbank a call, Jose told me they still build collet closers and would be happy to build me a new unit for my 10EE.

    The kit would include the following:

    Collet Closer Assembly
    5c nose piece (Jarno to 5c)
    Universal bracket to install onto back of machine ($45 extra)

    The unit would be supplied with a nut that replaces the factory nut on the rear of the machine, once the nut replacement/spindle is installed, the hub attached to it is indicated in and locked in with three bolts. The collet closer then slides into hub and is reacted using the universal bracket.

    I spoke to Monarch, they said the nut does not affect bearing preload, it only keeps the pulleys sinched up, so installation should be easy.

    I took some picture of a unit they had there, this is NOT the Monarch unit. Jose said they can usually hit .0005" or better for run-out on the nose piece.

    The price would be $1300, but we may be able to get some group pricing. Anyone else interested?

    img-7260.jpg
    img-7261.jpg
    img-7262.jpg
    img-7263.jpg

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    Nobrakes,
    Royal makes a lever action collet closer that looks a lot like that unit. They will cut the tube to the right length when you order it. I bought one twenty years ago for my 10EE and it still works fine. I do not remember the cost from back then.
    spaeth

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    Good to know there are other options on the market, but based off the price they sell some of their accesories for I think that is unattainable for most hobbyist, which most of us our.

    And don't get me wrong, I am all for 100% USA made products, even if pricey(JFK unit is also USA made).

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    Monarch used a variety of ways to secure the lever end to the back of the machine. Early machines had a iron upper part of the rear cover, that is much more ridged then the normal cast aluminum upper rear cover. The last version, a pad was machined on the back side of the headstock, and a heavy piece of cast iron bolts there and curves around the standard upper rear cover, the lever is secured with a pin. the lever closer pictured would have to be modified to fit on the machine.
    The later lever closers were made by Royal. I noticed Royal does not list closers anymore.
    Keep this in mind, The royal closer uses a part that slips into the rear of the spindle with a snug fit, often that part is missing on used ones. Another point to consider is...Â… a hand wheel closer will be more accurate, or produce a part with less taper on the end, its not a whole lot, but things tend to add up.
    And last, a closer with a too long of tube, can be shortened.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nobrakese28 View Post
    Good to know there are other options on the market, but based off the price they sell some of their accesories for I think that is unattainable for most hobbyist, which most of us our.

    And don't get me wrong, I am all for 100% USA made products, even if pricey(JFK unit is also USA made).
    Sounds like a good price from a "known good" supplier, and factory NEW.

    The JFK's putting the 5C inside the stub #12 jarno will also leave you with the most possible longitudinal daylight out of that stingy c-to-c budget.

    Next shortest are drawtube style where the closer mounts to the outside - on the D1-3.

    Other choices eat more daylight:

    My Sjogren 2J and Rubberflex 9XX on D1-3 need about the same daylight ration, but are slower to operate than a handlever.

    Still at about the same daylight loss, my 5C key-operated or ER spanner-wrench operated nose-closers on D1-3 are both MUCH slower cycle-time-wise.

    The 2J Hardinge "loop" front closer takes up right about 5" forward of the D1-3 flat. It's fast operating, though. Very!

    The Burnerd multi-size, nose elver, is similar and also fast to cycle. Very!

    Note that NONE of my collet systems uses a drawtube, and that all but the 5C can take larger diameters than the spindle bore will pass, so long as pre-cuts rather than rod or bar stock.

    Well "even the 5C". I've got step & pot collets for it to around 5" or so. Hardinge made them clear up to 7".

    "If I could only have ONE?"

    Burnerd Multisize, nose lever not key-cranker. No contest.

    Next best, 2J.

    5C yah just HAVE to ALSO have, regardless, even if not first-use. Cheapest collets, after all - especially hex, square... emergency, and in more than just steel.



    But your JFK 5C can cycle as fast as, or faster than ANY of these ....

    ....and for a lot less spend, so.... decent choice after all.

    Add more later.

    As you find out what a PITA 5C can be, off size material!


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    The 5c system is really old, and more solid locking collet systems have pretty much taken their place. The problems I have encountered are mostly related to defection from tool pressure.
    The set up on this lathe has an adjustable for run-out 5c nose piece, and a hand wheel closer for increase torque to help with deflection.
    I built this system 22 years ago, I would probably go with another system now, but it did work, and most important made money.


    These parts were all simple to make...on a ee, of course.

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    my recent experience with JFK precision was not good. ordered a MT5 5C sleeve, the external taper was way off. they said I must be mistaken. I wasn't. It cost me 2 days of screwing around, and I didn't have a usable product in the end. sent it back for a refund, but it was a big waste of time.

    Royal doesn't make the adapters any more, and sold off most of the stock years ago.

    luckily, I found a Royal MT5 sleeve in a machine about to be scrapped.

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    I was lucky and got this adapter on Ebay for less than $100 and with $20 worth of metal I have this assembly. Less than 0.0005 runout on the (non-Chinese) 5C collets I checked.

    Aso, the Sjogren 2J closer that came with my lathe along with the Hardinge 2J collets are also less than 0.0005 runout, and the 2J closers on Ebay are reasonable.


    5C collet closer - 10EE

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    Quote Originally Posted by bll230 View Post
    I was lucky and got this adapter on Ebay for less than $100 and with $20 worth of metal I have this assembly. Less than 0.0005 runout on the (non-Chinese) 5C collets I checked.

    Aso, the Sjogren 2J closer that came with my lathe along with the Hardinge 2J collets are also less than 0.0005 runout, and the 2J closers on Ebay are reasonable.


    5C collet closer - 10EE
    FWIW-not-much, but a modest few bucks more spend, and right useful savings in time and FUBAR risk..

    There are sources that sell several stock lengths of drawtube with one end already threaded to pull a collet. 5C but not-only.

    Even if you are Wizard at cutting fine internal threads in thinwall tube, never ever scrap a thing, why bother?

    ...When... you can just USE those threads, cut tube to length, do whatever is needed at the OTHER end, and DONE.

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    Another option is to have JFK make a drawbar/handle wheel system, it should be much more economical.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nobrakese28 View Post
    Another option is to have JFK make a drawbar/handle wheel system, it should be much more economical.
    "Have <any third party> make"..... sumthin' as SIMPLE as a handwheel closer?

    Kidding me, right?

    Is that a LATHE under yer hands? Or a vintage "Boston" schoolhouse-wall penzil-sharpener?



    With store-bought pre-threaded drawtube stock as the "starting gun", most hands 'ere could find something "wheel-ish" and "thrust washer-ish" in their Hell box, and/or fab from drops.

    Yah could deliver a working handwheel collet-closer in under one wall-clock hour. Or a bit more if yer picky.

    It WILL be accurate so long as the collet-taper at the nose is true.

    That whole tasking only takes longer if it has to be "extra pretty", such as building-up "french polish" on a lovingly turned hard Maple, Burl-Walnut or Lignum Vitae hand wheel... when yah could still GET sech material... "back in the day".

    Check the cutting blocks, kitchenwares again, but Asian markets. Cheet. Use a hole-saw for the starting "doughnut".

    Same kinda wood as stands up to years of abuse from Chinese Chef knives and "choppers", constant salt-down and rinse, makes good, durable, low-splinter-risk handwheels, too. Fillers Exist. Varnishes & alternatives as well.

    Nicer, FASTER, "hand LEVER" closer can come along when yah find a favourable "deal".


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    i sent you a text about a 10ee lever collet closer that i have and willing to sell

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    Quote Originally Posted by lectrician1 View Post
    i sent you a text about a 10ee lever collet closer that i have and willing to sell
    Thanks Rich, look forward to photos

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    I agree with Thermite’s summary, although i am not a big fan of Bernard Multi-Fix and wouldn’t rank it first. I have a standard hand wheel 5C, which is the backup system, but it came with the lathe. The collet system I use constantly, and which ranks #1 in my book, is the Sjogren 2J hand wheel collet chuck and Hardinge 2J collets, which go to 1 ⅜” which is the internal capacity of the spindle. There are also oversize pot chucks and closers available for 2J. In addition to the extra capacity 2J has over 5C, the collets are considerably beefier. When I was buying 5C collets to fill out that set, I discovered that a lot of the used collets available are sprung, but that seldom was the case for 2J. Over the years I have bought lots of 2J collets on Ebay, usually for $8 or $9 each, and now have a set from 1/32 to 1 ⅛ by 64ths, and by 32nds to 1 ⅜. I have never seen the 64th sizes above 1 ⅛ for some reason. I also have metric 2J’s by .5mm from 1mm to 25.5mm. The point being, think about the end system you are looking for, not just the start.

    If you do buy a Hardinge Sjogren 2J collet chuck, don’t be surprised if the accuracy you want is not what you got. I posted years ago about the need to fit D1-3 tooling to your lathe spindle. The acid test for D1-3 tooling is whether it properly centers on the spindle taper. If you release the three cam nuts, the tooling should stay on the spindle, held by the taper. It should take a slight hit with the palm to release it. Most of the D1-3 tooling available on the internet does not fit well. Even brand new D1-3 tooling may not fit well. As Thermite points out often and much more eloquently than I, you have a lathe, use it.

    Dave

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    I was hoping someone with a collet closer from the factory could chime in on the installation, below are some photos of the unit that Rich has offered to sell me. It has what looks to be a factpry bracket, but the bracket doesn't work with a collet closer. It has a shop made bracket that was bolted to the headstock casting.

    How does the actual collet closer mount to the spindle? My lathe has a large ring nut at the very end, do the assembly "click" into place of the nut? I would imagine it needs to center itself over spindle.

    img-7398.jpg
    img-7399.jpg
    img-7400.jpg
    img-7401.jpg

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    Normally there's a part that mounts to the end of the spindle and the closer indexes into this part. For the JFK the mount has a set of holes and the closer a pin that indexes into one of them, for the Monarch closer it's closer to a gear on the spindle end. No idea what a Royal closer would take, and looking at the 4th image doesn't clue me in much - maybe that tab thing on the center right indexes into a gear like structure?

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    You might want to send a PM to lathehand. He has a collet closer that mounts to the rear of the headstock with the same bracket shown in your photo. I don't know if it is a Royal, you'll have to ask him. You also might want to contact Monarch. I'm guessing that Monarch sold the Royal collet closers at some point, since they started modifying the headstock for that rear mount back in the 50's, so maybe they have the missing part.


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