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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveKamp View Post
    I'm not saying that the backgear isn't a nice thing... it provides options, and OPTIONS are always good. I'm just saying I haven't found a circumstance where I simply couldn't live without it.

    As I noted, my 10EE came with a backgear unit fitted with the "automatic belt oiling" function. The DRMO description identified the unit as "UNECONOMICAL TO REPAIR"., and the ORNL sticker said "NO LONGER RADIOACTIVE"... (that's a bonus, right?)

    Yes, Bill... MINE had a flat belt. Actually, it was closer to a 'conical' belt, by virtue of technical prowess predating my acquisition, probably somehow related to aforementioned belt-oiler, and worn out rubber suspension under the motor plate, and other stuff.

    After looking at everyone else's 10EE, I was confused by the flattie, as most I saw had matched V's.

    Yes, it's not quite 3:1, and yes, it IS set to overspeed to 250. The old Allis motor doesn't seem to care one bit... I suppose those boys knew a thing or two, learned from making the big spools at Davis Dam. I doubt my tachometer's accuracy, but I say with certainty that I have NO trust in any chuckwork at those speeds (I prefer to keep my shop safe), but I've spun it up there for small stuff in the collet.... and As others mentioned, fast work is small diameter, and there's basically zero torque needed there. The reduction of the belt takes care of the low end, and it has ample torque at the low side that I've never found a workpiece wanting more. I can see why some industrial settings might have SPEC'd it, but in my shop, if I have a workpiece that needs hogging power at 5", I take it to the pole barn and put it in the Loud and Shiplike.

    Silent... yes, there's inverter switching noise... it is no louder than the cooling fan in the motor, and about 1/6th the SPL of the running M-G I took out. I can listen to music comfortably in just about any circumstance.

    The OP asked, I put out my opinion, and my shop is open to appointments for anyone who'd like to try it, to see if it is acceptable performance for their expectations... and they're welcome to try any of the other machines I've got running on VFDs, or my welders, too... and visitors are welcome to even try out the contents of the beverage fridge, as long as you don't get too deep into my wife's beer... she's a bit ornery about her Spotted Cow and Summer Shandy.
    LOL! Never meant to imply YOUR one didn't work.

    Meant to point out that YOU are a "tough act to follow" ever' bit as much as Dee Cee motors are!

    - Gilmer belting.

    - Rare motor tough as cut nails.

    - VFD built "back in the day" when they figured it was an aircraft carrier using 'em as had to keep fighting, regardless, so build for tough, not for cheap?

    Hard to BUY that level of durability these days at any affordable price, and the old stuff is long gone, and/or finally going tits-up.

    All the while, DC hasn't moved a millimeter. It still is what it always was.

    Torquey.

    As to noise? I have an 85 db DOWN "notch loss" centered on 6600 Hz, confirmed by Breul & Kjaer's best goods in a world-class anechoic chamber - given I was National Service Manager of Radioear Hearing Aid Division of Esterline Medical just a few years after the war.

    That's why I have a Sound Pressure Level meter!

    As to torque w/o a gearbox?

    One of my tests, I slid that 5 HP RPM III, type "TR" onto the bare 10EE motor plate. 180 Volt wound. 387 lbs avoir.

    Plate would have had to come out, "underslung" rig replace it. To clear the tachogenerator's long-arse tail that conveniently placed the tach itself right in line with the former MG's rear side vented hatch cover. No Fine Way it could find room for a gearbox.

    Nor need one. Output shaft same size as my TEN hoss AC motors. BIG, IOW.

    Wudda been easy-peasy, no boost transformer needed, and a simple-cheap KBRG-255 180 V @ 25 A DC drive. As had been purchased FOR it.

    However.. no gain. Some downside. And far too much like work, mechanically, rather than low-mass and easier electrically.

    Back to the "aready FITS where it ALWAYS fit" 3 HP "large frame". Driven at up to four-point six HP, calculated.

    Monarch/Reliance hot-rodders only pushed to around 4.0 to 4.2 HP.

    Hard enough matching Dinosaur Current 690 RPM "base" motors when they do NOT "cheat like Hell".

    But "cheat" they DID!

    Hold regulation in full Armature, with no more to give, Field weakened zone?
    Like the "region of reverse control" on a stalling aircraft!

    RPM drops due to torque demand? Boost Field to boost torque.

    But boosted Field DROPS RPM in that zone, rather than raising it back up!

    Catch 22?

    Not if you actually have MORE Armature power up your sleeve!

    No magic. "BFBI".

    Do the classical crossover at the 230 VDC point on the nameplate. That is all the CONTROL knob has to give.

    But the control knob is NOT the ONLY player.

    Same setting but... actual load demand hits the Exciter/MG coils?

    They can still respond to demand and crank up the Armature Voltage well BEYOND the nameplate's "crossover" point.

    The practical limit is actually around a hundred Volts over-driven. No OEM Monarch drive prior to the "Monarch Sidney" & cousins Solid State Drive HAD the abilty to go THAT high ... 330-350 VDC!

    A Eurotherm/Parker SSD can surpass it, and easily.

    Actually APPLY that "more yet" Armature power?

    Commutator arc flash hits!

    You gets a massive blue-green-white eye-frying ball-lightning / corona display "sound and light show" enveloping the whole brushed end of the motor, roar of frying bacon, melted spots in the brush lead braid, bits of linen lfyng off the Armature from overspeed forces.... "etc".

    Wuddn' yah know it? "Destructive test" wasn't. Quite. "Destructive"

    That very motor has responded well to not a lot more than new brushes and a commutator re-dress!

    That tough. That enduring. That cheap to fix.

    One spare 3 HP large-frame motor put-by for each of my 10EE?

    Well.. several in my gene-pool have lasted past a hundred years of age.. but I suspect I have more realistically about a THREE lifetime reserve of bionic-Dinosaur spare parts put by?


  2. #42
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    The insulation on one of these DC motors is made to withstand a couple hundred volts from either lead to ground. If you float the DC with ground being the midpoint, you should have no worries from that quarter. One caveat is that the armature is wound with wire that can only stand a few amps continuously. It survives because when rotating the duty cycle is low. If you stall the motor, even less than the rated current can burn through a wire in seconds.

    Re low speed performance, over the years I have subjected my lathes to various indignities the designers didn't anticipate, like winding a starting current limiting resistor for a Detroit Electric car that lives next door from 1/4" 304 rod. You don't do that at 200 RPM! Another one was a hexafiler coil of 6 strands of #8 square wire. The form was obround and the technique was to wind 1/2 turn, stop and clamp the wires down, then repeat. That took really slow controllable torque.

    Re a comment about high frequencies from a VFD causing overheating, this transformer had to work from 125 cycles to 625. I initially speced 4 mil laminations. Lou Rothisberger at Electrocore suggested I try 12 mil. I kept my private reservations about his sanity to myself and figured that he had done a lot more of this than I had. The results were fine, the reason being that a core sized to operate at 15,000 Gauss at 125 cycles was only working at 3,000 Gause at 625, barely shaking the little polarized iron atoms. No heating beyond normal.

    Dave, you clearly know what you are doing, in the top tier of electrical types posting here. What may seem simple to you may not seem so easy to a machinist turned shade tree electrician. I have stayed out of this discussion until now because I am not sure what to advise the OP.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    The insulation on one of these DC motors is made to withstand a couple hundred volts from either lead to ground.
    ..with a "2" stuck to the left of it.. or a "zero" to the right, you'd be pretty close.

    It HAS to be that good.

    Or it would never have stood eighty-plus years of the 1500 V spikes off the contactors.

    Not hard. My Old Day Job had worked 8,000 Volts routinely under the oceans of the world for decades. The year 1900 was still in the future.

    "modern chemistry" super-varnishes?
    No.
    Already-proven "gutta percha", rather. "Contactors"? "Inductive spikes?"

    Weell. When the "World's first internet" was completed, 1898, it was cranking unmodulated simplex-phantom TELEGRAPH signals. At 4 WPM. They do tend to doo that "interruptions" thing? It was their very nature.

    Eight thousand Mike-foxtrot unrepeatered Dee Cee Copper-not-glass MILES under the Pacific, Australia to Hawaii in one go. Do not try to directly key that massively inductive monster with a ham radio "bug" thinking you can fist code faster than 4 WPM!



    DC motors - and not only - have been JF "dealing with" Voltages higher than their "service" operating levels for a very long time. Contactor opening thing, and you KNOW that because you've BUILT the buggers.

    See the ancestry of what we NOW call "ABB" and EARLY electric rail as to HOW high the Voltages and how long ago, already, as they were early-adopters of HV rail power transmission, if not the actual "first".

    By the time "Lincoln", later "Reliance" was building motors? Insulation was actually rather decent.

    It still is.


    If you float the DC with ground being the midpoint, you should have no worries from that quarter.
    I have "no worries from that quarter" to begin with.

    Burnt-out 10EE motors are seriously rare. The MG's generators fail more often. Or even the 3-P AC drive motor. And it is NOT "often", even so. For ANY of the goods in any 10EE. They ALL last a scary long number of years with little or no attention.

    Both my 10EE are older than my own vintage of 1945.

    Both will outlive me.

    That centered on ground thing would require significant "diddling" with the windings, given the motors were not BUILT as "centre tapped", nor ground-referred. At all.

    Nor is there any NEED of it.

    They are limited by hitting the commutator arc-flash point well before they even hit 500 VDC. For real. Not theoretical.

    That's why I was prepared to destroy a motor to find OUT when I DID that test.
    And why it was placed so far way from me too!



    One caveat is that the armature is wound with wire that can only stand a few amps continuously. It survives because when rotating the duty cycle is low. If you stall the motor, even less than the rated current can burn through a wire in seconds.
    I LOVE "caveats" They have kept me alive.. even when I had no right to be..



    Could have convinced me.

    Cannot seem to convince the actual motor though. So this one seems to be overly pessimistic? Because it has not failed. Nor even close to. That willngness to destroy a motor to FIND OUT again?

    Reliance had published an even higher reserve or "can survive at" than I had the available power to reach.

    So I'm limiting the motors I do NOT wish to risk destroying to the Reliance figure of not over 90 seconds as well. One minute and a half. That also assures I will never have commutator "wedging".

    But at only 150% of the SSD's 16 A rating? That 24 A is only double the nameplate FLA of the 3 HP "large frame" Reliance. "Wedging" occurs past the 90 second mark at betwwen four and NINE times nameplate, six times typical. Per Reliance own "white paper". Not my clumsy work.

    For maximum 90 seconds? Any GREATER load? No fear. Over-current fault, bright red LED, and drive has shut-down near-as-dammit "at ONCE!"

    So I'm well within safe bounds.

    The spare motors are intended to see that the NEXT four servants to a 10EE can easily complete the NEXT hundred-plus years.

    Because I can. It can. And they will.

    MG has a different limiter. No uber-fast op-amps, DC side.

    But if the DC-side tries to draw more rations that in the budget? The AC-motor side faults by "USUALLY" tripping its wise-sized UPSTREAM breaker faster than it would ordinarily trip its own nuisance-to-mess-with on-board "heaters".

    No fear. It has BOTH!

    And noo, it never WAS rated for "continuous" duty. Read the nameplate.

    It didn't NEED to be. See above.

    A 10EE had only a maximum in-the-cut run of 20", less-often 30", and MORE often perhaps but six inches on average. Or even less. Even then, not as a "hogger".

    Monarch built OTHER lathes for the chip-rip tasking, and they could kick serious tonnage at the job.


    Re low speed performance, over the years I have subjected my lathes to various indignities the designers didn't anticipate, like winding a starting current limiting resistor for a Detroit Electric car that lives next door from 1/4" 304 rod. You don't do that at 200 RPM! Another one was a hexafiler coil of 6 strands of #8 square wire. The form was obround and the technique was to wind 1/2 turn, stop and clamp the wires down, then repeat. That took really slow controllable torque.
    Well there you have it. The GEAR REDUCTION at least let the motor have a chance at moving fast enough to generate a skosh of back-EMF, even if very little air movement!

    Dave had to DIY a "blower duty" AC rig. Not a new concept.
    Reliance has had "blower duty" in their DC motor product line for AGES.

    Why are we at odds?

    Simple enough. "Seniors" or not, neither you, I, nor Dave have yet clocked.....

    ... five thousand years at pushing electrons.

    So however expert we may have become, our exposure has been driven by our OWN JOB.

    Not the job of the OTHER guys.

    So we share.

    To review the common areas. But more importantly, cover each other's GAPS.

    Because we ALL have "gaps"

    And we don't really like blind spots .... that can bite us in the ass..

    "PM at work, doing what PM does best!"

    At what? Covering our collective asses?

    Well? "check six!", Brethren!

    Still intact ain't it?

    Bet your ass that if ever the world runs out of interesting machinery? We still have something to "fall back on"!

    What's not to like about THAT?


  5. #44
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    DC motors do break down occasionally. I had one that extended the boom on one of Gannet's trucks. Running on 24 volts, it was wound with copper ribbon from a commutator bar through one slot, back through another and to a bar. The next coil went from the next bar to the same slot, so there were two rectangular wires in each slot. There was a short between two of the wires in one slot. It was a 4 brush motor and it would start turning, the short would come up to a brush and it would come to a dead stop. Dynamic braking to end all braking. When it stopped, there was no more braking and it would start again and turn to the next brush, jerking around in quarter turns. It seemed likely that it was a single fault, reflected in three other spots, but a growler did not show enough difference to tell which one. I wrapped a number of turns of fine wire on one half of a rectangular cut core and connected the coil to an oscilloscope, which clearly showed the bad slot by putting the core in the same position as you normally had the hacksaw blade. I cut the insulation away, exposing the wires, pried them apart, slid a Nomex strip between them and varnished it. It worked fine, but I still don't know why there should be a breakdown between turns in a 24 volt motor. Of course there will be spikes, but how much voltage will you have between adjacent coils?

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    DC motors do break down occasionally. I had one that extended the boom on one of Gannet's trucks. Running on 24 volts, it was wound with copper ribbon from a commutator bar through one slot, back through another and to a bar. The next coil went from the next bar to the same slot, so there were two rectangular wires in each slot. There was a short between two of the wires in one slot. It was a 4 brush motor and it would start turning, the short would come up to a brush and it would come to a dead stop. Dynamic braking to end all braking. When it stopped, there was no more braking and it would start again and turn to the next brush, jerking around in quarter turns. It seemed likely that it was a single fault, reflected in three other spots, but a growler did not show enough difference to tell which one. I wrapped a number of turns of fine wire on one half of a rectangular cut core and connected the coil to an oscilloscope, which clearly showed the bad slot by putting the core in the same position as you normally had the hacksaw blade. I cut the insulation away, exposing the wires, pried them apart, slid a Nomex strip between them and varnished it. It worked fine, but I still don't know why there should be a breakdown between turns in a 24 volt motor. Of course there will be spikes, but how much voltage will you have between adjacent coils?

    Bill
    More than just "occasionally".

    Galis - all the same USWA Local, but different bay and job classifications, most of the years I was there, had right about a third to half as many hands in the motor shop as we had in the machine shop.

    All three shifts!

    100 HP @ 600 VDC main drive motor on the Joy 1CM, "and not-only.'

    Deep mining is sore hard on equipment.

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    Guys, I certainly concur about the limitations of going to direct-drive with a VFD... and I wholly accept that the Ward-Leonard drive, the thyristor tube drives, and the backgear 5 VFD and non-back 10VFD were all 'standard' configs that Sidney put in these (and also the Sundstrand) were chosen to be well-enough to go out their doors.

    What I did, was simply apply a low-budget/high value pragmatic solution which is amply capable of performance that I expect of my machine... and I've had plenty of guys use it, who never thought it to be lacking.

    Frankly, I would not pick the 10EE for doing something that needed really massive cutting force... I prefer to reserve hogging for Engine Lathes, not precision toolroom use.

    Bill (9100), I LOVE your description of the DetElec resistor-winder... but if I were gonna do that, I'd probably slap together a motor-driven triple-roller rig... mebbie make it as a fixture driven by a rotary positioner... because I'd hafta rearrange the shop floor and roll the 10EE out of it's spot to feed that rod to it well. I DO use my EE for winding coils, but having spent the last month and a half of knee-repair convalescence at a desk, i've gotten good enough at ARDUINO programming (something I put off for WAY too long), I'll probably make a for-purpose benchtop coil winding rig that doesn't require the lathe.

    My point, is that a guy doesn't need to dump cubic dollars or endless grey-matter to fit a simple, reliable, and effective VFD. Yeah, I used old stuff, and just like the Ward-Leonard drive, an old VFD is still capable of doing an effective job. I didn't buy new, I was limited in my 'hobby' budget by the fiscal challenges of family-raising, so I gathered what I could find, and really... it wasn't difficult.

    There's stuff that'll turn faster, and slower, and might even prove a better finish quality, but I don't demand those extremes. For times I need, I'll employ other alternatives. It's a case of 98/2 vs 2/98. For 98% of what I do, this solution will accomplish it with no trouble. Attempting to make it accomplish that last 2% would increase the cost and complexity by another 98%. I just keep myself out of that 2%, and most PRACTICAL engineers do the same.

    One of my best engineering professors was spot-on- for every ONE decimal place of precision you add to a design, the END COST (both manufacturing AND maintenance) will up by AT LEAST THREE decimal places. So I always ask myself how many decimal places I REALLY need.

    Aside note- I intentionally tune my bass so that all five strings are about 3 cents flat. Reason: as temperature changes, the natural tension on strings changes. Likewise, it causes pitch drift in the other musicians' instruments. When I'm playing a live show, I do not have the luxury to be constantly re-tuning an instrument, but I have really strong hands, it is easy for me to BEND the strings into proper intonation at any point in time.

    Such is the way an individual must choose to use their machines... set them up so that it is most effective for their needs, and their abilities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveKamp View Post
    Guys, I certainly concur about the limitations of going to direct-drive with a VFD...
    I should shut up and let the Laws of Physics do their usual dirty work, but..

    WHEN one hammers TEN HP at the challenge of enhancing low-end w/o a gearbox?

    THEN there is WAAAY to MUCH power to be tamed at base RPM and above.

    Ten Hoss 3-Phase at 120 to 200-odd Hz? 3:1 or better ratio mechanical advantage vs near-as-dammit 1:1 .. or even 4,000 spindle RPM off 2400 RPM at the motor?

    We gots years of JST et al tellin' us that with advantageous V/Hz settings off a VFD as can haul that mail at all ..we are are at double the HP at 120 Hz?

    That - 20 HP? - (TEN is bad enuf') can get a tad more violent, and FASTER than a T-Rex Dinosaurian - tripping 24 A current-limit as it hits double the factory torque at one RPM or such.

    Could be there was more reason that just the ONE that Sidney tried 10 HP, "naked", then backed 'er down to 7.5 HP .. with gearbox?

    Not that I'm a suspicious sort of cynic as to enhancing crash damage as well as torque, but still..

    "Moderation in all things" works well(enough) and lasts a long(er) time.

    I gots a bigger lathe with double the power, similar RPM range, and even THAT isn't REALLY any sort of hogger.

    All I want from a 10EE is reserves so very deep it don't even whisper a complaint when all other "nominal ten inch" are shaking, moaning, belching, farting, and speaking of their Iron-deficient ancestry in the tongue of ill-repute.

    Even if only at parting-off operations.

    Not many 10 X 20/30 as do not at least whimper.

    And we know their rare and illustrious names as respected kin, now, even if competitors - or tried to be - of times gone by.

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    FWIW, my interim drive is a NOS baldor 5hp tefc 1750 rpm 220v motor, and a not too fancy vfd, running a single v belt. Spindle speeds from around 50 to around 1500. Mind you it’s a 1939 machine, in fairly decent shape, and mind you I’m not running production anything, but I’ve never seen the need for the back gear for my usage. Threads great, hogs to my needs, and if I crash the belt slips. Sure, someday I’ll jazz it up with a better motor, perhaps a better drive, but for now, it treats me well.

    Just my experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rabler View Post
    I'm a fair way down the road on a Parker conversion. Before you do anything I would test the DC motor and make sure you have a good motor. No sense in pursuing either fixing the original or a conversion if the DC motor isn't working. Haven't done it myself but I believe a 12V car battery can provide enough voltage on the field and armature to turn the motor.

    I started converting mine to a Parker setup because it had already been redone with a non-factory DC controller which was not functioning through the full RPM range.

    If you do decide to pursue the Parker setup I'll be happy to discuss it with you.
    Rabler,
    I would be interested in any advice you're willing to pass along!

    -Hunter


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